Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Lonewolf]

The ship is tilting to the waterline.

Issue with angle of image and then making 3 d image from many 2d images

 

[Blademaster]

Issue with angle of image and then making 3 d image from many 2d images

So the ship in the first pic is not actually sinking? Now I take a look at it again and I can see what you are saying. It sure fooled me.

 

[binayak95]

Mogami excel in their stealth characteristics but lack in air defence capabilities, they only have 16 Mk41 VLS cells which carry Type 03 Naval SAM

Yeah but look at their mission profile. They will operate with the F35B equipped Izumo class, acting as picket ships while the Kongo/Atago class do the heavy lifting.

Horses for courses.

 

[IndianHawk]

When addressing how Nilgiri or any IN ship will do against type 55, once can't treat it as some MMA match where it's 1v1 in the ring. The IN as a whole will need to be looked at comprehensively, against what the PLAN can bring to the IOR, keeping the geography and chokepoints of the Indian Ocean in mind.

Many members have already explained how these ships are network centric, where all the ships can share sensor data and target tracking data in real time with each other. For example, if 3 nilgiri class ships are there in a wide area, they essentially act as one ship with 3 sensors at different locations, with a total of 24 Brahmos and 96 Barak 8.

Second factor is the location of the fight. It will most probably be near the Malacca strait if there's a war, so it's well within air cover and surveillance cover from the A&N islands. The Air power India can bring to this chokepoint is tremendous, and neither the PLAN nor PLAAF have an answer for that. The numerical advantage of the PLAN also diminishes due to this factor, since if they try to rush their ships into the IOR through Malacca, it will be easy pickings for our aircraft and submarines.

Let us assume that some PLAN ships make it through Malacca and come deeper into the IOR. All the relevant trade routes in IOR are close to our coast and are again within striking range of our aircraft. So the PLAN is stuck at the outer edges of the IOR outside our aircrafts reach, from where they can accomplish nothing against India, and will be running low on fuel and food anyway.

India needs to step up it's air and missile presence in A&N, and build large numbers of frigates and destroyers that are networked together and spread out, instead of fewer cruiser sized destroyers like type 55. SSNs would also be a huge benefit of course.

Yes this is the right perspective. Future is network centric warfare. That's why assets such as p8i are very important.

Also important to remember that our frigates will have mh60r Romeo too as an attack counterpart besides onboard anti ship capacity. Which can use potent anti ship missiles like NSM and use light torpedoes on there own multiple times with reload.

Then we have air launched anti-ship capabilities with mig29k + kh35 , su30mki+ bramhos, rafale + exocet , jaguar+ harpoons , p8i+ harpoons in the arsenal too to wreck havoc on enemy fleet. Later mk2 will carry bramhos ng.

One has to remember what PLAN can actually field in Indian Ocean which rules out all there Corvettes and older frigates ( too small range) and most of their SSK ( any ssk without aip won't survive such a long journey).

So only some of their latest frigates and destroyer and SSN can be of actual use against India. But then these are the same assets they have to field against Japan usa and Taiwan and even in SCS against Vietnam and Indonesia and Phillipines.

So I wonder what can they actually bring to fight at all !!

Also to note that USA and Japan will be more than happy to help india identify and track chinese submarines ( already sensor network is being placed in IOR).

Then there is questions of fleet availability. Major naval ships are known for bad availability rates for all countries and Chinese ships with russian and Chinese origin engines will have much worse availablity rate. So even less ships to field.

Then the question of fuel and ammunition in IOR.

No country in asean is foolish enough to provide Chinese with aid in attacking India during active war since that will invite Indian attack on their facilities. And if chinese rely on mere tankers god save them !!

That's why I have always said that chinese are in no position to mount any serious military campaign for atleast next 20 years untill they sort out all above issues and break through first and second island chain.

So we should utilise these 20 years to develop crucial domestic capabilities like SSN and SSGN and indegenous SSK .

Secondly we need to increase numbers of SAM and SSM by using vlsam and desi SSMs currently in development. Put a universal launcher and increase the numbers.

Andmaan needs to be fortified with offensive capabilities and should be a fuel and birth station for friendly navies of France and usa.

 

[swapcv]

Mogami excel in their stealth characteristics but lack in air defence capabilities, they only have 16 Mk41 VLS cells which carry Type 03 Naval SAM

They might have provided space for additional VLS in the future which for now is FFBNW.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I'd add the new Japanese frigates as top tier ships as well. The Mogamis are defining state of the art right now.

Yeah, but I still wouldn't rate them as more powerful than Nilgiri class. Mogami's primary radar is X-band, not S-band. And it carries a VL-SRSAM class SAM system and much less poweful (compared to BrahMos) SSM. Also, its got only one heptr hangar. So not as powerful as Nilgiri class. Although some of its design features like integrated mast, etc are pretty nice.

Yeah but look at their mission profile. They will operate with the F35B equipped Izumo class, acting as picket ships while the Kongo/Atago class do the heavy lifting.

Horses for courses.

This I do agree with. Overall, JMSDF is looking pretty strong. Its larger and stronger than Indian Navy currently. And will continue to be so until around mid-2030s.

French FDI are lighter Frigates, not where comparable to Nilgiri. They have lower range/endurance, 1 Helicopter deck, Light Torpedos.....and while the Greek variants have similar Air defence like Nilgiri, they fall aawfully behind due to our BrahMos advantage.
PS- Im pretty sure Nilgiri and all future warships will be equipped with the 700 kms+ BrahMos-ER.

Nilgiri will be the best frigate in the world .

True. But still, the French are also working on long range scramjet powered cruise missiles that can fit into their FDI class' VLS. Also, frigates like Constellation class of USN will still be more powerful than Nilgiri class.

 

[IndianHawk]

Japanese are now planning two 20000 ton missile defence ship to take on chinese.
Goes to show they are getting serious about China.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Japanese are now planning two 20000 ton missile defence ship to take on chinese.
Goes to show they are getting serious about China.

WTF? 20,000 ton? They don't need such large ships! What a waste! What are they putting onboard these? Any links?

 

[IndianHawk]

WTF? 20,000 ton? They don't need such large ships! What a waste! What are they putting onboard these? Any links?

Japan to Build Two 20,000-ton Missile Defense Warships, Indian Carrier Commissions - USNI News

Japan’s Ministry of Defence is proposing to build a pair of ballistic missile defense ships – the among largest warships in the Japanese inventory since World War II – government officials said last week. The Ministry of Defense listed design expenses and engines for the two Aegis BMD ships...

news.usni.org

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Japan to Build Two 20,000-ton Missile Defense Warships, Indian Carrier Commissions - USNI News

Japan’s Ministry of Defence is proposing to build a pair of ballistic missile defense ships – the among largest warships in the Japanese inventory since World War II – government officials said last week. The Ministry of Defense listed design expenses and engines for the two Aegis BMD ships...

news.usni.org

Looks like they are that large to be able to support long deployments. Despite being a 20,000 ton ship, its crew is less than a Nilgiri class. And they are building them that large to be able to have multiple VLS so as to act as replacement for all of their Aegis Destroyers and become the sole provider of BMD to entire Japan. So it makes sense for them to have many VLS.

I still think Japan should have gone in for a land-based BMD instead. I don't get the "falling missile debris argument." Wonder how much these ships are going to cost. Probably a lot more than a land based system for sure.


EDIT: Part of the reason why its so large:-

Despite the massive stature, reports suggest a planned crew complement of around 110 sailors and officers, with private cabins for all onboard. In accordance with recent JMSDF designs for high-automation, a response to the shrinking number of personnel in the Force

The massive scale of the vessels will lend it stability under heavy sea states, increasing interception readiness, and increase endurance at sea, similarly increasing combat readiness.
Source: https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/0...et-expansion-includes-two-20000-ton-cruisers/

 

[jai jaganath]

Japan to Build Two 20,000-ton Missile Defense Warships, Indian Carrier Commissions - USNI News

Japan’s Ministry of Defence is proposing to build a pair of ballistic missile defense ships – the among largest warships in the Japanese inventory since World War II – government officials said last week. The Ministry of Defense listed design expenses and engines for the two Aegis BMD ships...

news.usni.org

Is it only bmd or anti missile ship
Or it is a destroyer with attack capabilities
I couldn't understand

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Is it only bmd or anti missile ship
Or it is a destroyer with attack capabilities
I couldn't understand

Just a BMD ship. That will free their current BMD capable Aegis destroyers for offensive tasks, instead of providing round the clock protection to Japan like they are doing right now. That task would then be taken up by these dedicated BMD ships.

 

[binayak95]

WTF? 20,000 ton? They don't need such large ships! What a waste! What are they putting onboard these? Any links?

BMD bruh, BMD.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

We need more SAM

Well you will see 24-32 VL-SRSAM VLS cells being retrofitted to these ships in the near future.
Will provide 2nd line of defence after the Barak 8

 

[IndianHawk]

Looks like they are that large to be able to support long deployments. Despite being a 20,000 ton ship, its crew is less than a Nilgiri class. And they are building them that large to be able to have multiple VLS so as to act as replacement for all of their Aegis Destroyers and become the sole provider of BMD to entire Japan. So it makes sense for them to have many VLS.

I still think Japan should have gone in for a land-based BMD instead. I don't get the "falling missile debris argument." Wonder how much these ships are going to cost. Probably a lot more than a land based system for sure.


EDIT: Part of the reason why its so large:-

Their old rich population doesn't want missile interception over its cities and hence push for sea based BMD.

 

[binayak95]

Their old rich population doesn't want missile interception over its cities and hence push for sea based BMD.

Its actually the limitation of AEGIS ashore, due to terrain masking of radars.
Thus, they shifted AEGIS ashore to two dedicated ships, freeing up the AEGIS destroyers for fleet duties.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Its actually the limitation of AEGIS ashore, due to terrain masking of radars.
Thus, they shifted AEGIS ashore to two dedicated ships, freeing up the AEGIS destroyers for fleet duties.

But terrain masking shouldn't be a problem for BMD right? Given trajectory of Ballistic Missiles. Also, AEGIS ashore will basically have radars similar to the DRDO HPR that Air Force in installing across India, right? So they could still work despite the terrain masking.
Plus our own BMD radars are atop hills, so it makes sense to put it on land.

 

[binayak95]

But terrain masking shouldn't be a problem for BMD right? Given trajectory of Ballistic Missiles. Also, AEGIS ashore will basically have radars similar to the DRDO HPR that Air Force in installing across India, right? So they could still work despite the terrain masking.
Plus our own BMD radars are atop hills, so it makes sense to put it on land.

If youre going to invest billions of dollars into creating a BMD net, and your VA is a thin series of islands that are mountainous, with radar on one side not being able to get a good track on targets on the other, would you invest in land based BMD?

Let me rephrase it, for pure BMD, yes AEGIS ashore makes sense - but wouldnt mounting the system, with its powerful integrated array, and large numbers of SM series missiles make more sense at sea. Mobile, able to deal with all aerial threats, create a ADIZ virtually anywhere and at will.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

If youre going to invest billions of dollars into creating a BMD net, and your VA is a thin series of islands that are mountainous, with radar on one side not being able to get a good track on targets on the other, would you invest in land based BMD?

Let me rephrase it, for pure BMD, yes AEGIS ashore makes sense - but wouldnt mounting the system, with its powerful integrated array, and large numbers of SM series missiles make more sense at sea. Mobile, able to deal with all aerial threats, create a ADIZ virtually anywhere and at will.

Kind of would, but then don't our BMD system against China face a similar problem of Himalayas? Still, even MRBMs would have apogee of around 300 km, so mountains shouldn't delay tracking unless you are trying to get a Mid-phase kill.

I do agree that mobile BMD would be desirable to Japan, but just two ships with only one on station at a time means your entire BMD for the country is being done by one floating platform, which if it goes down, means everything goes down. On land, this much money would allow for redundancy of radars and the missiles could be better distributed protecting them against a decapitating strike. Distributed, dispersed and networked defence systems is key to future of warfare.

PS Just to clarify, I am comparing Japanese 20,000 ton ship with entire Indian mainland BMD system.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Its actually the limitation of AEGIS ashore, due to terrain masking of radars.
Thus, they shifted AEGIS ashore to two dedicated ships, freeing up the AEGIS destroyers for fleet duties.

If youre going to invest billions of dollars into creating a BMD net, and your VA is a thin series of islands that are mountainous, with radar on one side not being able to get a good track on targets on the other, would you invest in land based BMD?

Let me rephrase it, for pure BMD, yes AEGIS ashore makes sense - but wouldnt mounting the system, with its powerful integrated array, and large numbers of SM series missiles make more sense at sea. Mobile, able to deal with all aerial threats, create a ADIZ virtually anywhere and at will.

But wait, I just remembered, Japanese are also planning to use these ships for HGV defence, so yeah, that way you are right. It is much better than Aegis ashore, not only due to radar horizon not being masked by terrain, but also due to its mobility lending it survivability. Especially for HGV defence.

Nevertheless, Japanese should back this up with a land based BMD system. Otherwise these ships would be a single point critical vulnerability in their national BMD efforts.