Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra,

I didn't ask for "things and technologies where Indian Mechanised forces are grappling with." I asked for the allegedly third class technologies used in Arjun.

The article you posted does not indicate any third class technology used in Arjun.

Everything therein is third class ... that is majority of those are Garage queens. Go and ask this in the running Arjun thread and I shall list out every thing...

A project sanctioned in 1974 !! in 2015 we still are debating it. The article I posted every thing that was wrong with Arjun.

Do not hijack the thread and come back to RFI which I had challenged you and others to write one !!

 

[pmaitra]

Everything therein is third class ... that is majority of those are Garage queens. Go and ask this in the running Arjun thread and I shall list out every thing...

If you could list even one thing, you would have done it already, instead of tossing an unsuccessful obfuscation using that article.

Thanks for effort, nonetheless.

A project sanctioned in 1974 !! in 2015 we still are debating it. The article I posted every thing that was wrong with Arjun.

You have not read the article.

Do not hijack the thread and come back to RFI which I had challenged you and others to write one !!

I am not hijacking anything. I am asking you to list the "third class" technology that you allege is in the Arjun. You made that comment. You back it up.

 

[Bhadra]

@pmaitra

posted in relevent thread ;

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra

posted in relevent thread ; There is psychological tendency " Now I have caught you .............." ge t rid of that !!

You posted CAG report that points out 10 improvement areas agreed by the Army and DRDO in the year 1994. This is 2015. [Link to your post]

Again, list the "third class" technologies in the Arjun as of 2015.

 

[su35]

For the armour proponents and users in India the need is to overcome the obstacle ridden terrains in Western border, Ladhakh, Sikkim, Arunanchal, Bangladesh, Jungles of Burma, air portability and transportation by sea for amphibious roles. That is to cater for all futuristic environments.

Do you think We will send our tanks to into jungles or over the mountain of Himalayas ? And regarding Amphibious role even arjun fits for that.

 

[su35]

Things and technologies where Indian Mechanised forces are grappling with are more than described here :

Army’s Armour Drives

http://defencesecurityindia.com/armys-armour-drives/
Looking ahead to the induction and modernization of the ambitious Main Battle Tank (MBT) programme, the Indian Army is challenged by some grave issues like night blindness of the tanks , ordnance shortage and the fatigue of T-90s including many others

The Articles tells about the shortcoming in Indian Mechanized force. It does not tells about the shortcoming of the Arjun MKII. Regarding T72 night blindness and other problems, that could have been solved If the army had taken precaution while buying t72. Why Army is so hurrying to retire t72 Even Russia has not completely decommissioned T72

 

[Khagesh]

Bhadra bhai rahne do aap se na ho payega. That's two take downs in a row, above.

What we really should have done is build in an organic manner. Arjun has so much space that things can grow with it. Subsequent Marks of Arjun would easily have satisfied the IA.

Arjun has over the years, grown in armour, grown in firepower, grown in sensors and communications. Tomorrow's tanks are going to need a bird's eye view too (MALE UAVs for sure and some sort of advance warnings about enemy CAS and Helos perhaps). The Armour Commanders will need to have connectivity with the Air Defence controllers also for sure. Why else would the IA ask for mounting Akash on tank chassis. But these are things not even covered by the FRCV-RFI. They still think that Tank crew and commanders are going to ride like a horse cavalry - like throwing a handful of peas against the window panes. They do not even see the Tank as part of a larger system. The whole list of requirements for both FMBT and FRCV look like they are focused onto the tank as a self contained self sufficient system and that is it.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Bhadra,

I didn't ask for "things and technologies where Indian Mechanised forces are grappling with." I asked for the allegedly third class technologies used in Arjun.

The article you posted does not indicate any third class technology used in Arjun.

Leave the third rate article posters to their fun games, who write BS like,"However, the Arjun Mk II fitted with a large proportion of imported systems, is expected to cost an exorbitant Rs 370 million ($5.96 million) each, once completed, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament in August 2011.

In comparison, Arjun MK I with over 60 per cent imported components is priced at around Rs 170 million per tank, less than half the price of its upgraded model. The proven T 90S, on the other hand, were procured for $2.2-2.5 million per unit or nearly three platforms for the price of one Arjun Mk II."

fact is T-90 is neither mission ready in hot indian deserts now and never will be. Also all the money that is poured into its upgrades to get it to functional level will make its cost inch closer to Arjun.

As usual the devil lies in the detail,'
"The DRDO, for its part, had seconded a team of academics, technicians and army officers to develop the FMBTs transmission and engine called the Bharat Power Pack. “We are confident that we will be ready with the FMBT prototype in five to seven years,” S Sundaresh, DRDOs chief controller of armaments and combat engineering division had said in Chennai in late 2010. Working with a foreign consultant, in all probability from Israel, he said the DRDO was looking to develop a modular design FMBT capable of being upgraded whenever new technology emerged.

But the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which after several years has failed to effectively formulate the proposed FMBTs preliminary specification qualitative requirements (PSQR), recently proposed the project’s abandonment. Instead, it is believed to have indicated its preference for gradually upgrading Arjun’s operational capability and agility, by reducing its excessive weight without compromising on fire power, for eventual deployment in mountainous terrain.

The DGMF reasoned that building a third MBT production line alongside the T90s and Arjun presented neither economic nor logistic or even operational logic. Besides, it argued that there had been no major breakthroughs in armoured vehicle technology in recent decades and consequently was of the view that the future of indigenous tank building needed to flow from MBT Arjun. This proposal, however, is still under review."

Equating the production line for future FMBT to the now being discarded by russians-T-90 is down right stupid stuff from DGMF. T-90 is the past, FMBT and Arjun before the development of FMBT is the future.

but in their dubious urge to import even more T-90s that are not functional in indian desert heat, DGMF is scuttling FMBT and Arjun with a single swipe called RFI for FRCV.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...y-arjun-t72-frcv-medium-weight-fmbt/29208793/

"Shankar Roy Chowdhury, retired Army general and former service chief, said the paramount requirement for the tank is survivability.

"Russian designers sought to achieve this [survivability] by smaller size [three-man crew and lighter armor], lower profile and speed. The West preferred larger turrets, hence thicker armor, heavier tanks. The test for both designs has been the Arab-Israeli wars and the gulf war. The Russian designs did not do too well. Blame that on the crews if you like," Roy Chowdhury said.

The most important requirement, however, is that the future FRCV must be indigenously designed, Roy Chowdhury said."

The general knows the importance of protection and supports heavy armored arjun by simply saying "that paramount requirement for the tank is survivability.

 

[Bhadra]

The Articles tells about the shortcoming in Indian Mechanized force. It does not tells about the shortcoming of the Arjun MKII. Regarding T72 night blindness and other problems, that could have been solved If the army had taken precaution while buying t72. Why Army is so hurrying to retire t72 Even Russia has not completely decommissioned T72

you have not read the article carefully...

It says that we could buy 2-3 T-72 for the cost of one Arjun....

That is the difference,,, when the government buys a thing they have to take into consideration lot of things. For T-72 about 300 night sifghts were planned to be bought but DRDO could not integrate those with tank initially.

In the case of T-90 air conditioner and some other items were not bought because of Cost factors and MoD keeping in view that their super scientists will make it. What is so big with AC. But when IA gives an equipment to DRDO they somehow manage to create big problems - whether it is gun conversion, producing barrel, ammunition, fitting AC or something else.

There are a lot of complicated issue. If the govt would have given money - Army would have bought Leopold or Challenger or Merkava. Why only T-72 or T-90?

 

[ersakthivel]

you have not read the article carefully...

It says that we could buy 2-3 T-72 for the cost of one Arjun....

That is the difference,,, when the government buys a thing they have to take into consideration lot of things. For T-72 about 300 night sifghts were planned to be bought but DRDO could not integrate those with tank initially.

In the case of T-90 air conditioner and some other items were not bought because of Cost factors and MoD keeping in view that their super scientists will make it. What is so big with AC. But when IA gives an equipment to DRDO they somehow manage to create big problems - whether it is gun conversion, producing barrel, ammunition, fitting AC or something else.

There are a lot of complicated issue. If the govt would have given money - Army would have bought Leopold or Challenger or Merkava. Why only T-72 or T-90?

"In the case of T-90 air conditioner and some other items were not bought because of Cost factors and MoD keeping in view that their super scientists will make it. What is so big with AC. But when IA gives an equipment to DRDO they somehow manage to create big problems - whether it is gun conversion, producing barrel, ammunition, fitting AC or something else."

You dont have to stopp low to such stinking levels to put blame on DRDO!!!! There is no way you can fit an AC in T-90 without compromising its ruggedness. thats why every other global major contracted for the job refused it , including the russians!!!

Now DGMF is trying to palm the head of DRDO by tasking them with this unenviable job, with the sly intentions of blaming them in future if things dont work out.

The DGMF buys such crap like T-90 that dont function in desert heat without Ac and next to nothing safe ammo storage in a fradulant contract leaving out the cost of gunbarrel ,and armor TOT , to make it look cheap and is now busy laying the base for future blame game on DRDO.

Why the hell they dont invite a global tender to fix the AC problem of T-90 , in a state of the art three part RFI for FRCV style, with one agency designing and another implementing it?
Answer-they have begged at the doorstep of every global major and they laughed their ass off at the foolishness of DGMF in buying such crap!!!

Now with the RFI for FRCV, the DGMF is trying to make the whole of india laughing stock of the world.Sure this will also end up like the global fiasco of T-90 AC fitting and pull the country into another abyss called urgent import of Armata, which sure wont suit our condition also.

And get the crew of the no armor , no safe ammo storage T-72 to be roasted in real time.Is that tank warfare for you?

Arjun withstood a direct T-72 hit from point blank range .

The solution you are suggesting is akin to taking one's kid to bogus Doctor who charges less!!!!

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...y-arjun-t72-frcv-medium-weight-fmbt/29208793/

Shankar Roy Chowdhury, retired Army general and former service chief, said the paramount requirement for the tank is survivability.

"Russian designers sought to achieve this [survivability] by smaller size [three-man crew and lighter armor], lower profile and speed. The West preferred larger turrets, hence thicker armor, heavier tanks. The test for both designs has been the Arab-Israeli wars and the gulf war. The Russian designs did not do too well. Blame that on the crews if you like," Roy Chowdhury said.

The most important requirement, however, is that the future FRCV must be indigenously designed, Roy Chowdhury said."

The general knows the importance of protection and supports heavy armored arjun by simply saying "thatparamount requirement for the tank is survivability.

From the farticle you posted,

,"However, the Arjun Mk II fitted with a large proportion of imported systems, is expected to cost an exorbitant Rs 370 million ($5.96 million) each, once completed, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament in August 2011.

In comparison, Arjun MK I with over 60 per cent imported components is priced at around Rs 170 million per tank, less than half the price of its upgraded model. The proven T 90S, on the other hand, were procured for $2.2-2.5 million per unit or nearly three platforms for the price of one Arjun Mk II."

fact is T-90 is neither mission ready in hot indian deserts now and never will be. Also all the money that is poured into its upgrades to get it to functional level will make its cost inch closer to Arjun. But still it will not have the protection level of Arjun, either in armor or safe ammo storage, still being the threat to its crew!!!. Some crooked cost comparison this!!!. it is like comparing the costs of one Mig-21 and one Su-30 MKI , and saying it doesn't make sense to run Su-30 MKI production line!!!.

As usual the devil lies in the detail,'
"The DRDO, for its part, had seconded a team of academics, technicians and army officers to develop the FMBTs transmission and engine called the Bharat Power Pack. “We are confident that we will be ready with the FMBT prototype in five to seven years,” S Sundaresh, DRDOs chief controller of armaments and combat engineering division had said in Chennai in late 2010. Working with a foreign consultant, in all probability from Israel, he said the DRDO was looking to develop a modular design FMBT capable of being upgraded whenever new technology emerged.

But the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which after several years has failed to effectively formulate the proposed FMBTs preliminary specification qualitative requirements (PSQR), recently proposed the project’s abandonment. Instead, it is believed to have indicated its preference for gradually upgrading Arjun’s operational capability and agility, by reducing its excessive weight without compromising on fire power, for eventual deployment in mountainous terrain.

The DGMF reasoned that building a third MBT production line alongside the T90s and Arjun presented neither economic nor logistic or even operational logic. Besides, it argued that there had been no major breakthroughs in armoured vehicle technology in recent decades and consequently was of the view that the future of indigenous tank building needed to flow from MBT Arjun. This proposal, however, is still under review."

Equating the production line for future FMBT to the now being discarded by russians-T-90 is down right stupid stuff from DGMF. T-90 is the past, FMBT and Arjun before the development of FMBT is the future.

but in their dubious urge to import even more T-90s that are not functional in indian desert heat, DGMF is scuttling FMBT and Arjun with a single swipe called RFI for FRCV.


By the same token how can we justify HAL beign asked to set up another production line for Rafale, while it has already set up production lines for tejas and Su-30 MKI. The DGMF is simply advancing false arguments to further their forever import policy!!!

 

[Khagesh]

Off course survivability is paramount. These tank crew are almost as difficult to train as the aviators. It cannot be simply presumed that the air conditioner once fitted is going to work well, that the sensors will be able to work facing severe attack, that all the mechanical engineering is not going face mechanical difficulties. Just sit in your car in June Delhi heat without your AC on and you will see within 5 minutes. These tank crew will have to work and keep their minds fighting fit in some very trying circumstances with them being targeted from the land, under the land and the air, within sight, outside of sight. You cannot train such people over night. And they will be spearheading, defending, blocking, flanking, countering, slash, parry. The SOP is too much.

Anybody contending otherwise will run high risk of fast lose his crew count on D-day.

In fact at times I wonder if some mechanism can be developed to eject the magazine if the tank is hit, to prevent cook off. I wonder.

 

[Khagesh]

It says that we could buy 2-3 T-72 for the cost of one Arjun..

Try to resist bringing in T-72 into this. T-72 was give a point blank chance to kill Arjun in 2000 and it could not. Arjun had not fired .

 

[Bhadra]

Leave the third rate article posters to their fun games, who write BS like,"However, the Arjun Mk II fitted with a large proportion of imported systems, is expected to cost an exorbitant Rs 370 million ($5.96 million) each, once completed, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament in August 2011.

In comparison, Arjun MK I with over 60 per cent imported components is priced at around Rs 170 million per tank, less than half the price of its upgraded model. The proven T 90S, on the other hand, were procured for $2.2-2.5 million per unit or nearly three platforms for the price of one Arjun Mk II."

fact is T-90 is neither mission ready in hot indian deserts now and never will be. Also all the money that is poured into its upgrades to get it to functional level will make its cost inch closer to Arjun.

As usual the devil lies in the detail,'
"The DRDO, for its part, had seconded a team of academics, technicians and army officers to develop the FMBTs transmission and engine called the Bharat Power Pack. “We are confident that we will be ready with the FMBT prototype in five to seven years,” S Sundaresh, DRDOs chief controller of armaments and combat engineering division had said in Chennai in late 2010. Working with a foreign consultant, in all probability from Israel, he said the DRDO was looking to develop a modular design FMBT capable of being upgraded whenever new technology emerged.

But the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which after several years has failed to effectively formulate the proposed FMBTs preliminary specification qualitative requirements (PSQR), recently proposed the project’s abandonment. Instead, it is believed to have indicated its preference for gradually upgrading Arjun’s operational capability and agility, by reducing its excessive weight without compromising on fire power, for eventual deployment in mountainous terrain.

The DGMF reasoned that building a third MBT production line alongside the T90s and Arjun presented neither economic nor logistic or even operational logic. Besides, it argued that there had been no major breakthroughs in armoured vehicle technology in recent decades and consequently was of the view that the future of indigenous tank building needed to flow from MBT Arjun. This proposal, however, is still under review."

Equating the production line for future FMBT to the now being discarded by russians-T-90 is down right stupid stuff from DGMF. T-90 is the past, FMBT and Arjun before the development of FMBT is the future.

but in their dubious urge to import even more T-90s that are not functional in indian desert heat, DGMF is scuttling FMBT and Arjun with a single swipe called RFI for FRCV.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...y-arjun-t72-frcv-medium-weight-fmbt/29208793/

"Shankar Roy Chowdhury, retired Army general and former service chief, said the paramount requirement for the tank is survivability.

"Russian designers sought to achieve this [survivability] by smaller size [three-man crew and lighter armor], lower profile and speed. The West preferred larger turrets, hence thicker armor, heavier tanks. The test for both designs has been the Arab-Israeli wars and the gulf war. The Russian designs did not do too well. Blame that on the crews if you like," Roy Chowdhury said.

The most important requirement, however, is that the future FRCV must be indigenously designed, Roy Chowdhury said."

The general knows the importance of protection and supports heavy armored arjun by simply saying "that paramount requirement for the tank is survivability.

I can not say I agree or disagree with Gen Shankar Roychaudhary but what the RFI suggests is otherwise by using the word " Medium" .

Heavy armour and protection as the supreme factor became prime requirement where armour / tanks were not employed in their classical roles but for FIBUA and close encounter battles such as in Iraq and Afghanistan or Ukrain. Germans have always gone for heavy - heavy is beautiful right from their Tiger days. Israelis always went for a balanced tank.

In recent times, I think, Indian Army initially got influenced by this debate of heavy versus medium tank and three crew versus four crew tanks and therefore might have accepted heavy Arjun primarily for less mobile roles and as an adjunct.

OK whatever.

But tell me what Indian Army would do with Tanks ? Fight in the streets of Lahore or Amritsar?

Provided they reach there? To reach there they need mobility more than protection !

When Indian Army took out their T-72 tanks in Jaffna , three were blown off in the first instance itself. That was end of employment of Tanks in a built up area. Employment of Tanks in built up areas to quell local insurgencies, indulge into urban warfare , and even engage in close quarter battles over the objective, perhaps is not Indian Armour / Mechanised forces doctrine. ( though I am not privy to it) It would still not want their Tanks to be converted into Infantry tanks of the older days of Worl War II.

Indian army primarily would like to conduct swift and quick blitzkrieg mobile warfare based on manoeuvres and not indulge into firepower slug. Given the terrain and conditions obtained on our borders such bold employment of armour can only be undertaken when mobility is retained as the prime characteristics with adequate protection and good firepower. Is not that also the prime lesson from our history? Of course I am also not suggesting suicadal Rajput Cavalary Charges. But if the battles are envisaged for only four five days durations even that would become necessary.

As on today anti tank weaponry and Armour (protection) technology is almost evenly matched with tandem warheads, long penetrators, top attack munitions and smart munitions disabling any tank of any protection?. Protection so far has not won its battle.

Tanks are invariably going to take casualties whether they are light or heavy tanks particularly when two well equipped conventional armies such as those of India and Pakistan are pitted in battles.. the battles are very intense and fast and two sides are going to thow every thing on each other at the very go. In order to minimise those casualties, why cut down on mobility which equally serves as a factor to save casualties and adds to protection? When mobility becomes the essential factor of the doctrine , is such a thing as Arjun advisable ?

Hence in my view, mobility of mechanised forces must be the prime consideration.

It is not for nothing that Al Khalid is of only 46 tons which is going to be MBT of Pakistan ?

 

[Bhadra]

Try to resist bringing in T-72 into this. T-72 was give a point blank chance to kill Arjun in 2000 and it could not. Arjun had not fired .

That is precisely I am saying ......

Having been given GSQR, funds and wherewithal in 1973, you guys could not make Arjun Fire even in 2000. What do you think IA should have done? Waited under the banana tree called DRDO for a banana which never falls and let the security of this country be taken over by some General Khan from across the border.

 

[Khagesh]

In recent times, I think, Indian Army initially got influenced by this debate of heavy versus medium tank and three crew versus four crew tanks and therefore might have accepted heavy Arjun primarily for less mobile roles and as an adjunct.

@Bhadra your fake debate about mobility vs protection to keep ignoring Arjun is not going to work on us.

Arjun is more mobile and better mobile too than anything out there with IA. That part of the discussion has been made clear by now. If you find that difficult to understand then perhaps you should seek the help of your kids. I am sure they will understand faster.

This is over and above the protection Arjun affords and has afforded in all its avatars since 2000 at least.

 

[Khagesh]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tsk tsk

Having been given GSQR, funds and wherewithal in 1973, you guys could not make Arjun Fire even in 2000.

This itself shows how much you know about Arjun and the purchase managers you are trying to protect.

Arjun prototype was I think handed over for trials in 88-89 period and while the criticism was about gun accuracy and ammo lethality, it was never about the gun per-se. Ammo lethality was an ammo issue and the accuracy was an Fire Control System issue. DRDO at one point had decided to do away with the indigenous FCS (which was actually developed from an imported FCS successfully used by IA on Vijayanta MBT). Vijayanata MBT was taking part in excercises till 1996 and phased out in 2008 (per internet) .

What do you think IA should have done?

What could IA have done when their own people were sold out.

For youngsters the AUCRT trial was in 2007-2008 period, which is where the IA testing people did their best to assasinate the Arjun and failed and yet using a cooked up report the T-90 contract was signed in 2008 again.

@Bhadra are you really Bhadra or a kid from Bhadra's home. Bache papa ko bulao. Yeh sab bachon ka khel nahi hai. :biggrin2:

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra your fake debate about mobility vs protection to keep ignoring Arjun is not going to work on us.

Arjun is more mobile and better mobile too than anything out there with IA. That part of the discussion has been made clear by now. If you find that difficult to understand then perhaps you should seek the help of your kids. I am sure they will understand faster.

This is over and above the protection Arjun affords and has afforded in all its avatars since 2000 at least.

Fake Nahin hai Na Ji.

This is the global debate. Samajhte hain Na.

Being heavy has its own problems even if it runs faster. It tires faster. It goes to hospital (workshop) faster. It is not a long distance runner. It drinks more and while climbing Sarvatra, the bridge collapses.... It needs four men to make it run. it is more in height and length.

Can India risk Arjun being mauled by Al Khalid. Arjun Ki baijatti ho jayigi bhai ...

Change the name of this tank - name it Avinash ... that sounds well ..

 

[Khagesh]

Being heavy has its own problems even if it runs faster. It tires faster. It goes to hospital (workshop) faster. It is not a long distance runner. It drinks more and while climbing Sarvatra, the bridge collapses.... It needs four men to make it run. it is more in height and length.

"tires faster" - Arjun is not Bhadra that it will tire out.
"not a long distance runner" - Arjun has the same foreign engine that the foreign-brands-salivating purchase managers of IA live and die for.
"bridge collapses" - Sarvatra is a 15 meter spans X 5. Arjun is already crossing 46 meter spans (implies single piece). . Unfortunately I tried looking for but could not find the pic for you.
"needs four men to make it run" - So was Vijayanta based on which IA managers had asked for the 4 men crew.
"more in height and length" - to kya ladki choti pad gayi. At 2 km how much does that extra height count for!?


Added later for Bhadra's heartburn :

Prasoon bhi kabhi kabhi kaam aa jaya karta hai.

 

[Bhadra]

Dialog thik hai to sab thik hai...:biggrin2:

Beech beech men har sentence men personal attack na ho to thik rahega..

Apani panditayi door rakho to thik rahega .. chatak chu***a hona thik nahin..

Bhadra to sirf DFI Defence enthusiast hai .. koi DODO nahin.. na koi import manager hai... dal roti milati hai wo hi thik hai.. 100 DODO ek atarf aur sirf ek Bhadra doosari taraf ... aissi shtiti hai .. fir bhi Bhadra Bhadra hi hai..

CGI ki report se spashast hai ki Sarvatra barbad hai ... ... ham to reference ke saath kah sakate hain ?

I do not reveal any thing, quote any thing, say any thing unless it is in public domain.. I am very clear on that..

Baaki Sab Thik Hai ... Gaon se chithi aayi hai is saal fasal nahin huwi Baaki sab thik hai..

DRDO se khabar aayi hai ,, pul nahin bana, baaki sab thik hai..

Try to be a good member around and do not get inspired by fools :


काकः कृष्णः पिकः कृष्णः कोभेदः पिककाकयोः ।
वसन्तकाले संप्राप्ते काकःकाकः पिकःपिकः ॥


kAkaH kRuShNaH pikaH kRuShNaH kobhedaH pikakAkayoH |
vasantakAle saMprApte kAkaHkAkaH pikaHpikaH ||

The crow is black, the cuckoo is black, so it is difficult to make out the bird with their color. But then when the spring arrives and the morning dawns, it is well known who is a crow and who is a cuckoo.

In the same way, it is difficult to make out the pretence to scholarship of a person until he/she is in an assembly of scholars. Or unless one starts shouting like you all DODOs do ..

So consider this forum as Basant Kale morning... do not shout like a crow but give sweet sounds of a cuckoo

 

[Rowdy]

Hahah that RFI is not gonna move an Inch .... Parrikar gonna slam that B**ch back to where it came from .
And we have to cut off Star wars subscription from all the morons @ IA