Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Bhadra]

Army invites proposals for building FRCV tanks, DRDO surprised
​

By PTI | 26 Jun, 2015, 04.59PM IST


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/47830259.cms?cfmid=11001088&utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppstat:


NEW DELHI: Intending to replace the Soviet- origin T-72 tanks, the Army has invited proposals from domestic and foreign firms for designing a 'Future Ready Combat Vehicle', significantly at a time when DRDO is already working on such a project.

The Army has issued a Request for Information (RFI) inviting responses from companies by July 31 to design the vehicle which will form the "base platform for the Main Battle Tank which is planned to replace the existing T-72 tanks in the Armoured corps..
The RFI is open to both domestic and international firms. According to the Army, the best design will be chosen and given to nominated developing agency for production of the prototypes.

The selected prototype will be given to production agency, which could be a domestic firm, for bulk production, defence sources said.

"The FRCV (Future Ready Combat Vehicle) is planned to be a design and development project, to be executed in three stages - design stage, prototype development stage and production stage," it said.

The RFI added that a 'Future' Combat Platform design must cater for 'future' battlefield environment and technological possibilities.

To address the future battlefield scenario and the envisaged force profile in the coming years, the FRCV needs to be developed on a modular concept with a high degree of flexibility in a manner that, as a tank platform, it can address the varying requirements of different terrain configurations, it said.


At the same time it can provide the base on which a 'Family of Vehicles', catering to the operational needs of various arms of the Army, can be developed.

The move is significant as the country's premier defence research agency DRDO is already working on technology for a futuristic tank - Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).

The Army has earlier been at loggerheads with the DRDO over the Arjun tank that it had developed.

Asked about Army's RFI, Director of DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE), which is working on the FMBT, told PTI, "We have a long-term perspective plan from the Army. We are working on the technology development and will continue with it".

DRDO officials expressed surprise over Army's RFI and are wondering why it was issued when it is already working on it.

They are hoping that the Ministry of Defence, which has been pushing for 'Make in India', will look into the issue.

A senior official noted, "DRDO has been doing well with the Air Force and the Navy but always hits a roadblock when it comes to the Army".

Meanwhile, defence sources maintained that the RFI is open to all and even the DRDO can take part.

They added that the idea behind the move is that the Army gets to know the various design options that are available based on which a final selection can be made

____________________________________________________________

So this Rudali Choir on DFI and elsewhere is planned and paid for. DRDO's psychological attack though is unreasonable and full of Noise but the Signal is not being missed out. - DRDO Signal - that they will sabotage the RFI and finally sabotage the security of the country..


ANOTHER INSAS FRAUD IN THE MAKING

 

[Bhadra]

What Does IA Want ? Is that the Question ?​

Friday, May 14, 2010
EXCLUSIVE: India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/05/exclusive-indias-future-main-battle.html

The Indian Army is still juggling concepts of precisely what it wants from its Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), but information shared with LiveFist provides a rare broad glimpse into work very much in progress as far as qualitative requirements for the future platform go. The Army's FMBT wish-list, in no particular order follows.

The Army insists that stealth be built into the FMBT from the ground up -- including paints/materials to provide limited invisibility in IR/visible spectrum and for scrambling and avoidance of detection.

The Indian Army wants the tank to have an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system "to obviate chances of own tanks firing at each other in battle",

and a whole new reliable and secure mobile communication system capable of data transmission, audio and video conference.

Protection in the form of soft-kill system requires IR detectors, laser warning, radar warning and devices to instantaneously integrate these signals and control a countermeasure suite. Such systems are threat specific so all would have to be carried on a vehicle to gain protection against more than one part of the EM threat spectrum.

The new tank necessarily needs to espouse hybrid electric vehicle technology and incorporate digital vehicle electronics (vetronics) to provide intra-vehicle and inter-vehicle communication capability that will greatly improve sit awareness and enhance operational effectiveness.

For mobility, in order to achieve ‘extraordinary’ acceleration, the Army observes that it is necessary to couple the conventional diesel engine of the proposed tank to a turbine. The ‘Hyberbar’ engine will be able to accelerate from zero to full power at 1,500 hp in 2.8 seconds, while a conventional diesel engine requires 8-12 seconds. The quest for more compact power pack has led to renewed interest in gas turbines, which needs to be explored, the Army feels.

The Army wants an active suspension system with sensors, control units, and a hydraulic power source in combination, to automatically alter the suspension characteristics to more closely match the speed of the vehicle and the terrain profile, especially in Indian terrain conditions.

The Army has always held the view that signature management was almost completely ignored in the development of the Arjun. The Army hopes that lesson has been learnt now. Current and expected future threat scenarios require signature management measures of a multi spectral type, and they require an extremely short reaction time. The Army says it requires signature management in design measures, basic camouflage, additional camouflage and temporary camouflage.

Explosive Reactive Armour Now! The Army points out that the main battlefield threats against tanks are Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGMs), unguided anti tank rockets and grenades; shaped charge High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) gun rounds; Kinetic Energy (KE) gun rounds; and top-attack weapons like intelligent sub-munitions, terminally guided artillery rounds, etc. There is a need for developing Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA). Given optimised designs, integrated ERA offers tanks highly effective protection against both the penetrators of Armoured Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) projectiles and the jets of shaped charge weapons, including those with tandem warheads.

The Army says it wants a high-performance armour system on its FMBT with advanced materials incorporating the following qualities (a) Reduced penetration by most lethal weapons, (b) Elimination of parasitic mass leading to a weight reduction, (c) Excellent corrosion resistance, (d) Inherent thermal and acoustic insulation properties.

The Army has stressed that the FMBT needs Infra Red (IR) detectors, target identification systems, laser warning systems, radar warning receivers and devices to coordinate their signal and instantaneously control a countermeasures suite. These countermeasures fall into two categories: soft-kill system and hard-kill system. The soft kill sensors must discriminate true and false targets and they must discriminate between missiles or other rounds that threaten the vehicle being protected and those that will miss or are aimed at other targets.

The Army wants an Automatic Protection Systems (APS) on the FMBT. The radar should determine threat levels adequately, and the self-defence rockets should not cause high levels of collateral damage, particularly to accompanying dismounted infantry.

Of course, weapons. Conventional tube weapons are the product of a mature technology, and have now reached a high level of performance. However, on account of the gas-dynamic processes of thermally transformed powder, the muzzle velocity of projectiles is theoretically limited to approximately 2,300 m/s. Contemporary tank guns still offer a considerable growth potential, and electronic guns will be able to exceed this and become an attractive proposition. Tank-fired missiles, which carry shaped-charge warheads, were susceptible to various countermeasures, especially reactive armour. The Army says it is reasonable to expect development of high velocity KE missiles with heavy-metal, long-rod penetrators to defeat current and future tanks both within and beyond line of sight. Such extended-range missiles would enable armoured vehicles to engage targets beyond the direct fire zone. The high/medium-energy level (100 kJ) vehicle-mounted laser is expected to be a lethality option against rockets, air vehicles, light ground vehicles, antennas of armoured vehicles and electro-optical sensors. Hard-kill system to provide full-spectrum defence against top attack weapons, ATGMs, guided missiles and gun-launched KE and HEAT rounds.

Fire Control System (FCS): Ground sensors, non-line-of-sight launch system and the network capability will enhance soldiers’ understanding of their situation in dynamic battlefield conditions by promoting a common perspective of enemy and friendly locations on digital maps and provide timely actionable intelligence.

Very importantly, the Army has stressed that there is a need to manufacture modern simulators using lasers, micro-processors and magnetic tapes, thereby creating near actual combat conditions during training. Development of driving, gunnery and tactical simulators.

 

[DivineHeretic]

For everyone and anyone who wants to know what the T-90s or Arjuns have to face:

The following is the strength or load bearing capacity of soil at a particular region. Now this is data is from the exact soil found in a particular western border region. I cannot reveal which region.

And then here is another, this time from a dry river bed in the north east.

For comparison, the ground pressure of Arjun is 0.84kg/cm2 and T-90S is 0.9-0.96 kg/cm2.

In short: If the soil is silty or clayey and wet, both tanks are likely to get stuck. If anything, Arjun is more mobile across such terrain.

However that being said, the trick towards better mobility is less ground pressure. It does not necessarily mean reducing the weight of the tank. I have a few ideas about this, and am currently theorizing the feasibility of one. I don't know if it will work out, but if it does, I might try joining DRDO.

And finally for people talking about logistics set up around the 45 ton vehicles: Every important, semi-important bridge in the western sector is being upgraded to 70 ton tracked class. So this logistics argument as far as road and rail links are concerned is a fail.

 

[pmaitra]

@DivineHeretic, I have fixed your post. Your first picture is now visible.

 

[Khagesh]

I am wondering (I may be wrong so pls feel free to correct me), that since this FRCV RFI is basically a silly mughalia fatwa of a stupid bunch of General Ranis, DRDO should simply let it pass and negotiate with the MoD to open up domestic research and OFB factories for exports proper. Put up Arjun Mk-1 for export and invite interest for cooperation in the 1500 hp engine. Let these lazy mansabdars and jagirdars can import whatever they want. There import capacity will run up against Modi. Let us see how well they protest against Modi. Meantime just the designs for the Arjun Mk-1 will easily fetch more that a 200 million USD (1000 crore) from say Iran or Vietnam. Then there will be upgrades and services. On the one had we get to establish real strategic ties and on the other a friendly country can begin to develop its own infrastructure for defence production and independence.

Just express inability to be able to upgrade T-90 etc. Put some panga in it and let these Mansabdars stew in their own juices.

As I write it seems a little irresponsible but what the hell if just for the heck of it.

 

[pmaitra]

Great post @pmaitra, well researched and to the point unlike the lazy ass RFI. But I wish you had waited a little longer before putting in such a damaging post. It usually helps to have the opponent well invested in a stupid argument before taking him down.

Here is another eye opener for doubting thomases. An 80 ton to 90 ton Railway engine on another of the flat bed wagons

Indian Railways operates some 220 kinds of wagons. It is really lazy to argue logistics against Arjun
http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Wagons/?g2_page=5

And here is another collectors item that is not traceable on the net caches but was a very important article that shows how the DGMF office has lied time and again for its masters:

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mbt-weight-implications/ - this is the old link for credits
For Railways:


For Roadways:

I don't know who the successive heads of DGMF live for.

Logistics is such a big lie to keep Arjun out that Krishna himself will one day instigate Arjun to wipe out the Kauravs again.

Thank you.

It is essentially a movement from a well wagon to a flat wagon.

Each of these wagons are placed on two bogies. It is possible to have a bogie-less wagon, but most wagons used by IR are placed on two bogies.

A well wagon has the middle of the wagon going down like a "well." A flat wagon is flat all along.

The following representative images will clarify it.

Bogie

Well Wagon

Flat Wagon

BFAT versus BWTA (or BWTB)
.|...........|
.FLAT........WELL

So, a well wagon helps in lowering the centre of gravity, however, in case of Arjun, a flat wagon is used for the very purpose that the tracks do not foul with the platforms.

Good post, and thank you for sharing.

The picture of a BFAT wagon has been posted by @Kunal Biswas several times, since a couple of years ago; perhaps even more. It is a surprise why we are even debating this. With the BFAT wagon, we don't even need to use sleepers, like they would be required with BWTA and BWTB wagons.

 

[pmaitra]

I am wondering (I may be wrong so pls feel free to correct me), that since this FRCV RFI is basically a silly mughalia fatwa of a stupid bunch of General Ranis, DRDO should simply let it pass and negotiate with the MoD to open up domestic research and OFB factories for exports proper. Put up Arjun Mk-1 for export and invite interest for cooperation in the 1500 hp engine. Let these lazy mansabdars and jagirdars can import whatever they want. There import capacity will run up against Modi. Let us see how well they protest against Modi. Meantime just the designs for the Arjun Mk-1 will easily fetch more that a 200 million USD (1000 crore) from say Iran or Vietnam. Then there will be upgrades and services. On the one had we get to establish real strategic ties and on the other a friendly country can begin to develop its own infrastructure for defence production and independence.

Just express inability to be able to upgrade T-90 etc. Put some panga in it and let these Mansabdars stew in their own juices.

As I write it seems a little irresponsible but what the hell if just for the heck of it.

My opinion is very simple. Let these small coterie of officials (I refuse to call them soldiers) buy whatever they want, provided, they get off the tax payer's money. They can pay out of their own pockets, and they can also get off the government salary.

 

[Khagesh]

@pmaitra

Thanks for the explanation.

One supplementary query. Since the Flat bed wagon is going to be higher I guess the tank can simply roll on to it. The Well bed wagon on the other hand should require some ramp based loading. Or so I would guess.

If my hunch is right then loading and unloading tanks onto a Flat bed wagon should be faster.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra

Thanks for the explanation.

One supplementary query. Since the Flat bed wagon is going to be higher I guess the tank can simply roll on to it. The Well bed wagon on the other hand should require some ramp based loading. Or so I would guess.

If my hunch is right then loading and unloading tanks onto a Flat bed wagon should be faster.

Yes, it is always easy to roll on a flat surface than to roll on an undulating surface.

Some interesting pictures of the tanks of the Kantemirovsky Division of the Russian Army arriving for exercises:

Even these Russian tanks have their tracks protruding from the sides, but it is just above the platform, so it does not foul.

Being flat wagons, it is easier for the tanks to roll off onto adjacent platforms.

P.S.: The Russian Broad Gauge is slightly narrower than the Indian Broad Gauge.

 

[Bhadra]

I am wondering (I may be wrong so pls feel free to correct me), that since this FRCV RFI is basically a silly mughalia fatwa of a stupid bunch of General Ranis, DRDO should simply let it pass and negotiate with the MoD to open up domestic research and OFB factories for exports proper. Put up Arjun Mk-1 for export and invite interest for cooperation in the 1500 hp engine. Let these lazy mansabdars and jagirdars can import whatever they want. There import capacity will run up against Modi. Let us see how well they protest against Modi. Meantime just the designs for the Arjun Mk-1 will easily fetch more that a 200 million USD (1000 crore) from say Iran or Vietnam. Then there will be upgrades and services. On the one had we get to establish real strategic ties and on the other a friendly country can begin to develop its own infrastructure for defence production and independence.

Just express inability to be able to upgrade T-90 etc. Put some panga in it and let these Mansabdars stew in their own juices.

As I write it seems a little irresponsible but what the hell if just for the heck of it.

Very Good idea..very Good !

I must complement you for this !

That is what exactly everyone has been trying and saying so far for last fifty years. DRDO and DPSUs, OFB must run and function like a business organisation and get off the hooks of Defence budget and get off the back of Defence Forces who are tired and very sick of these free booters. All these organisations must sell in international market and compete with them. Indian Army, Navy and Air Force must buy at competitive prices rather at fixed inflated prices.

Armed Forces are there to fight a war and they must be allowed to choose what they want at competitive rates and quality standards. That is what is the system and custom at international level. US Armed Forces are not captives to their Arms Industry. They pick and choose.

Selling Arjun or FMBT in international Market is a good and superb idea . Even Pakistan may be interested !!

I suggest you make FCS for USA and sell those to them . They would be glad ,,


@Khagesh ... bahut chatur Ho !

 

[Bhadra]

My opinion is very simple. Let these small coterie of officials (I refuse to call them soldiers) buy whatever they want, provided, they get off the tax payer's money. They can pay out of their own pockets, and they can also get off the government salary.

But who is asking for your certification ? You are not one because you do not have it in you !!

 

[pmaitra]

But who is asking for your certification ? You are not one because you do not have it in you !!

I agree. I do not have it in me to hide behind the safety of the uniform and work for foreign arms peddlers.

How are you liking this thread so far?

 

[Bhadra]

I agree. I do not have it in me to hide behind the safety of the uniform and work for foreign arms peddlers.

How are you liking this thread so far?

My liking or dislike hardly matters. This thread is running as orchestrated DRDO line on RFI.

Write the RFI, let us see you.

 

[Khagesh]

Selling Arjun or FMBT in international Market is a good and superb idea . Even Pakistan may be interested !!

Yeh thought so too. Cannot sell Arjun to Pakistan. These Jagirdars still control the fate of our own boys. Cannot put our own people tied onto T-72s to the ultimate risk of facing an Arjun. If we sell Arjuns to Pakistanis then the first ever win of Pakistan over India will become a cake walk.

But then I am sure some random Chinese design tank in the Arjun class will be available to Pakistan pretty soon. After that all these General Thapars can fight with their Medium Tanks.

For youngsters - you have got to search for Gen. P. N. Thapar and Gen. Brij Mohan Kaul both owed their 'success' to just such foreign pasand imbeciles of that age as are supporting these DGMF types.

 

[pmaitra]

Yeh thought so too. Cannot sell Arjun to Pakistan. These Jagirdars still control the fate of our own boys. Cannot put our own people tied onto T-72s to the ultimate risk of facing an Arjun. If we sell Arjuns to Pakistanis then the first ever win of Pakistan over India will become a cake walk.

But then I am sure some random Chinese design tank in the Arjun class will be available to Pakistan pretty soon. After that all these General Thapars can fight with their Medium Tanks.

I doubt these generals would be fighting at all. They would be sitting in their comfy offices, while our tanker boys will have to operate these T-90s in the sweltering heat of the Thar Desert.

My liking or dislike hardly matters. This thread is running as orchestrated DRDO line on RFI.

Write the RFI, let us see you.

You really think this is orchestrated?

Why not have a thorough investigation on all DFI members and all those officials you are defending. Include yourself too. Anyone found guilty of treason faces the firing squad. Do you have it in you?

 

[Bhadra]

PROPAGANDA GALORE


I say this that the propaganda is orchestrted because it is so evident from the writtings of people like Ajay Shukla on Broadswaord :

There was a time when he was loolking for ideas for FMBT in vague terms :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/01/great-indian-tank-design-challenge.html

Then see how he carries paid articles :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/search?q=FMBT

Then see what he has to say about RFI :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/06/armys-new-battle-tank-proposal-sets.html


It does not take much of understanding how DRDO / CRVD is using slush money to pay jouranists for propaganda. You will agree that no journalist writes things for for the heck of it.

 

[pmaitra]

PROPAGANDA GALORE


I say this that the propaganda is orchestrted because it is so evident from the writtings of people like Ajay Shukla on Broadswaord :

There was a time when he was loolking for ideas for FMBT in vague terms :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/01/great-indian-tank-design-challenge.html

Then see how he carries paid articles :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/search?q=FMBT

Then see what he has to say about RFI :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/06/armys-new-battle-tank-proposal-sets.html


It does not take much of understanding how DRDO / CRVD is using slush money to pay jouranists for propaganda. You will agree that no journalist writes things for for the heck of it.

Oh forget Ajay Shukla. You have pointed fingers at DFI members too. Here is a reminder:

____________________________________________________________

So this Rudali Choir on DFI and elsewhere is planned and paid for. DRDO's psychological attack though is unreasonable and full of Noise but the Signal is not being missed out. - DRDO Signal - that they will sabotage the RFI and finally sabotage the security of the country..


ANOTHER INSAS FRAUD IN THE MAKING

 

[Khagesh]

@Bhadra, you have got to become serious about your arguments. If you think members with such varied backgrounds are converging on a point and that constitutes a propaganda, then perhaps you are out of your depth handling these things.

And DRDO till recently did not have funds for gas money for their engines development. DRDO did not even consider replying to a useless political slave of a CAG on the LCA report, and you expect them to sponsor propaganda in a net forum.

Sirji sab aapki tarah khali nahi hain.

 

[Bhadra]

Oh forget Ajay Shukla. You have pointed fingers at DFI members too. Here is a reminder:

Yes, are not they / you DRDO / OFB/ DPSU paid employees and subject of the topic effecting their interests directly. And Look at the irrational way they cry. Rone ka bhi tariqa hota hai Na ? Do you expect them to be impartial but there has to be decorum to express your views.

About this topic - I have said ten times as to why one of you do not write RFI and demonstrate how it should have been.

I also asked ten times to put up a reply to DGMF questionnaire ! But none of you would do that ?

You guys only know how to throw muck and call names.

Some of them are so pathetic that they abuse DGMF in every sentence as if they do not know anything else. That perhaps has become a fashion in DFI. Very few serving member ever enjoy DFI due to this and ganging up attitude of the DRDO / DPSU / OFB fellows and that is clearly lack of participation from their sides besides many other reasons.

There is no healthy debate . Everything is reduced to shouting, slinging and abusing match. So those who have some standard quietly veer off. That is what I have been observing for last four years on DFI.

Look at your own and other DODOs replies to Mad Indian. What names you all have not called him?

For what ? Because he has views contrary to yours ?

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra, you have got to become serious about your arguments.

Oh! You mean like you .... No. never. Generally I am serious in my arguments.

If you think members with such varied backgrounds are converging on a point and that constitutes a propaganda, then perhaps you are out of your depth handling these things.

In DRDO offices, in OFB offices and in DPSUs almost all have internet on their computers (One of the reasons their computers are frequently hacked by the Chinese. That is also the reason why volume on DFI on Saturday and Sunday is low because you guys are not in offices) . At home also they have govt paid internet. And there is no dearth of jobless people there in those organisations who have nothing to do but be on internet and vent their frustrations AND BE INTERNET BULLIES. They have sufficient time and resources to discuss right from Dalit issue to Reservation, Tamil, Telagu language issues, anti Hindi issues, Regional issue, language issues which are favourite of DRDO people because of solid reasons and their background. But hardly any scientific issues are ever discussed. Defence issue for you all means "Generals are mindless, Generals are corrupt" confined to that parrot like rote nothing beyond that. You all do not know anything beyond Tejas and Arjun - the two biggest Indian failures. ( I say Indians - how they tolerate such bunkum)

On the contrary Defence Services Officers have no such luxuries and time to be on internet. Majority of them are in areas where there is no internet. They have no time for such frivolities, nor are they provided free internet on their PC / mobiles. Even if they have, their standards are a bit high. That is why you do not find Srvice officers here in the forum.

And DRDO till recently did not have funds for gas money for their engines development. DRDO did not even consider replying to a useless political slave of a CAG on the LCA report, and you expect them to sponsor propaganda in a net forum.

Firstly, when ever you name some respectable appointment like CAG, do that with some respect. Otherwise it speaks bad of you.

Secondly, DRDO has funds for every thing, including very high salaries to their employees, TADA, five star guest houses, foreign tours, internet bills. import of huge sums, grants in aid, and even keep working on foreclosed projects without sanctions. Almost all private firms doing business with DRDO are ex DRDO scientists who establish their shops while in service. So there are many sources of funds.

Sirji sab aapki tarah khali nahi hain.

IT MEANS YOU ADMIT THAT I AM "KHALI" (I also admit) BUT YOU ARE DOING OFFICIAL JOB IN THE FORUM ??
WELL THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING !