Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Mad Indian]

take time to appreciate the morally compromised DGMF trying to scuttle rjun as late as 2014!!!

here is the comparison table which blows away all the BS being peddled by you and your ilk that Arjun was ready and T-90 was not ready!!!!

The table below lists the crooked motive of DGMF in setting different comparison table for Arjun adn T-90 with the intent of giving T-90 an unfair advantage!!!

This is the kind of answer I needed, not moronic rants that Army is corrupt. So yes, I agree you have a point. @Bhadra and @karn have to answer this question and for now I will agree with you.

But now explain why this RFI is BS. None of the posts in this thread has given even a remote reason on why it is so,

 

[Archer]

Just read my post . It is step to find out what is possible or not with a tank,

Not really ... This is brand new direction .. This not FMBT.

So the Army requires 3 decades of experience to come out with a vague poorly worded proposal to ask a bunch of foreign firms to tell it what it requires for its terrain? What is possible and not possible with a tank? Decide to jump from an actual working Arjun to a FMBT which goes nowhere (wasting five years since 2010) and now comes out with another equally hilarious FRCV with all sorts of vague high level terms saying tell us what you think we need, because we sure as heck didnt say anything.

Brilliant.

In a way its good all this is coming out. This is the sort of BS DRDO and other Indian agencies in the PSUs have to put up with from the IA/IAF day in and night out and take it silently. The private sector for the most part has refused to participate in such confused muddles (see FICV).

 

[Archer]

And you should shoot an arrow up your arse

LOL, figures that you'd be too much of a worthless coward to do anything yourself. You remind me of that moron virus, asking people to delete their own files.

What are you, a teenager? Go do something with your life, instead of being a waste of your daddy's DNA.

90% of your posts are worthless rants without any real experience of anything and here you are going around asking people to explain basic concepts to you, freaking idiot.

 

[ersakthivel]

This is the kind of answer I needed, not moronic rants that Army is corrupt. So yes, I agree you have a point. @Bhadra and @karn have to answer this question and for now I will agree with you.

But now explain why this RFI is BS. None of the posts in this thread has given even a remote reason on why it is so,

@Bhadra and @karn will never answer any pointed questions. if you still can not get that straight after 20 pages of discussion, no one can help you,

What this table shows is DGMF knows that Arjun has achieved much better operational readiness than t-90 even after they changed the goal post of GSQR five times!!!

What is even worse is they are standing at the same hated doors of DRDO to fix the T-90 desert unfit problem, which the russians refused to set right and doggedly opposed DRDO to set it right.

Now the endless rant that CVRDE-DRDO failed IA is finally nailed.

SO why DGMF instead of asking DRDO to implement whatever it wants in FRCV with precise figures for each parameter , is now unveiling another MMRCA type circus called RFI for FRCV?

Why did DGMF slept on FMBT specs for the past five years and waited for the unveiling of armata?

They could have easily told DRDO that since they dont know anything about the future main battle tank(they admit as much in their RFI), to propose its own set of specs before jumping into this FRCV?

 

[Archer]

@Bhadra and @karn will never answer any pointed questions. if you still can not get that straight after 20 pages of discussion, no one can help you,

What this table shows is DGMF knows that Arjun has achieved much better operational readiness than t-90 even after they changed the goal post of GSQR five times!!!

Now the endless rant that CVRDE-DRDO failed IA is finally nailed.

SO why DGMF instead of asking DRDO to implement whatever it wants in FRCV with precise figures for each parameter , is now unveiling another MMRCA type circus called RFI for FRCV?

Its amazing to see the patience you lot have with such imbeciles. Explaining basic things about how such a program should be run, how freaking ludicrous it is that the DGMF has no clue of the engineering effort required to run a common program and the compromises that invariably result (seen the JSF anytime genius?). And a common platform. Yes, so, a support platform should have the same powerpack and capability/hull as a full armored MBT.

Meanwhile ditch decades of effort in a state of the art platform like the Arjun which can be iteratively improved. World class FCS, Armor, powerpack all of which can be leveraged improved for new designs. No.. lets launch another joke of a program which goes nowhere. This time lets call it FRCV not FMBT.

And then you have fanboys like the one you are replying to, who know nothing of the topic, randomly spout shit and you guys are patiently attempting to knock sense.

Anyone with any industrial knowledge would know the IAF RFI is a piece of crap no sensible vendor would touch with a barge pole, and if they did, they have an inside connect and have probably spent the last half an hour laughing at how incredibly stupid the Indian Army can be at times.

The RFI HOW MUCH PRIZE MONEY WOULD YOU GUYS REQUIRE TO HELP US.. yes, with decades of operational experience, including usage of tanks in combat, giving huge volume orders is not sufficient. They are now offering prize money.

This is more embarassing than a school holding a painting contest for its Kg class and asking other teachers, should we give the winner prize money or a new geometry box?

Another bunch of years wasted as India's DGMF goes about its circle jerk.

 

[ersakthivel]

Its amazing to see the patience you lot have with such imbeciles. Explaining basic things about how such a program should be run, how freaking ludicrous it is that the DGMF has no clue of the engineering effort required to run a common program and the compromises that invariably result (seen the JSF anytime genius?). And a common platform. Yes, so, a support platform should have the same powerpack and capability/hull as a full armored MBT.

Meanwhile ditch decades of effort in a state of the art platform like the Arjun which can be iteratively improved. World class FCS, Armor, powerpack all of which can be leveraged improved for new designs. No.. lets launch another joke of a program which goes nowhere. This time lets call it FRCV not FMBT.

And then you have fanboys like the one you are replying to, who know nothing of the topic, randomly spout shit and you guys are patiently attempting to knock sense.

Anyone with any industrial knowledge would know the IAF RFI is a piece of crap no sensible vendor would touch with a barge pole, and if they did, they have an inside connect and have probably spent the last half an hour laughing at how incredibly stupid the Indian Army can be at times.

The RFI HOW MUCH PRIZE MONEY WOULD YOU GUYS REQUIRE TO HELP US.. yes, with decades of operational experience, including usage of tanks in combat, giving huge volume orders is not sufficient. They are now offering prize money.

This is more embarassing than a school holding a painting contest for its Kg class and asking other teachers, should we give the winner prize money or a new geometry box?

Another bunch of years wasted as India's DGMF goes about its circle jerk.

Even worse DGMF expects the MNC tank makers to do contract work for them and hand over the sole rights of these family of FRCV to them for a prize money!!!

i dont know why the DM is silent? Well he has been cornered into silence by vested interests in media by twisting his quotes in all manner possible!!!!

Just a couple of months back dassault even refused to transfer TOT and hold their original price for rafales which led to wholesale cancellation of MMRCA.

Now these DGMF corporate head honchos expect, reputed MNC tank makers who are the guardians of the most secretive tech in the world to to give TOT and sole rights to them after working for prize money!!!

DO they really expect that the home countries where these tank makers operate will permit such contract labor leading to all TOT and sole IP rights to be vested in the hands of IA?

How senile people can get in DGMF?

 

[Mad Indian]

@Bhadra and @karn will never answer any pointed questions. if you still can not get that straight after 20 pages of discussion, no one can help you,

All this 20 pages of discussion has only been about arjun and corruption in Army. None have provided why this RFI is a joke. The only point your people made was that it was vague and even that was countered by the people you mentioned on why it is vague. So yes, you can talk for twenty pages of useless gibberish and still not answer the question

 

[ersakthivel]

All this 20 pages of discussion has only been about arjun and corruption in Army. None have provided why this RFI is a joke. The only point your people made was that it was vague and even that was countered by the people you mentioned on why it is vague. So yes, you can talk for twenty pages of useless gibberish and still not answer the question

Before going to Eng college you need to study till 12th std. So first you notice how "rational" are DGMF's decision regarding MBTs!!!!

Even worse DGMF expects the MNC tank makers to do contract work for them and hand over the sole rights of these family of FRCV to them for a prize money!!!

i dont know why the DM is silent? Well he has been cornered into silence by vested interests in media by twisting his quotes in all manner possible!!!!

Just a couple of months back dassault even refused to transfer TOT and hold their original price for rafales which led to wholesale cancellation of MMRCA.

Now these DGMF corporate head honchos expect, reputed MNC tank makers who are the guardians of the most secretive tech in the world to to give TOT and sole rights to them after working for prize money!!!

DO they really expect that the home countries where these tank makers operate will permit such contract labor leading to all TOT and sole IP rights to be vested in the hands of IA?

How senile people can get in DGMF?

Suzuki refused to transfer the gear box tech for the "famed maruthi 800" for decades!!! , preferring to import them from japan saying that it cant be made here, until the full control of the company passed into their hands.

that is the situation regarding a simple gear box tech of the worlds cheapest model car being fiercely guarded for decades!!!

Now IA wants to own the world's most modern tank tech just for prize money!!!! You are a doctor, Just tell me how many MNC medical full body scan makers will agree to such a competition? If they are asked to work for a decade developing the best futuristic tech for the next full body scanner for a "prize money" and lose all IP rights, what will they do on the eleventh year/

begging, perhaps?

 

[Mad Indian]

Before going to Eng college you need to study till 12th std. So first you notice how "rational" are DGMF's decision regarding MBTs!!!!

Even worse DGMF expects the MNC tank makers to do contract work for them and hand over the sole rights of these family of FRCV to them for a prize money!!!

i dont know why the DM is silent? Well he has been cornered into silence by vested interests in media by twisting his quotes in all manner possible!!!!

Just a couple of months back dassault even refused to transfer TOT and hold their original price for rafales which led to wholesale cancellation of MMRCA.

Now these DGMF corporate head honchos expect, reputed MNC tank makers who are the guardians of the most secretive tech in the world to to give TOT and sole rights to them after working for prize money!!!

DO they really expect that the home countries where these tank makers operate will permit such contract labor leading to all TOT and sole IP rights to be vested in the hands of IA?

How senile people can get in DGMF?

again, what does all of this have to RFI being shit? This is for a tank to be inducted in the time line 2030 yes? So what is wrong in asking for RFI , asking about what kind of futuristic tech can you provide?

And as for MNCs not going to respond, lets see.

 

[Archer]

Even worse DGMF expects the MNC tank makers to do contract work for them and hand over the sole rights of these family of FRCV to them for a prize money!!!

i dont know why the DM is silent? Well he has been cornered into silence by vested interests in media by twisting his quotes in all manner possible!!!!

Just a couple of months back dassault even refused to transfer TOT and hold their original price for rafales which led to wholesale cancellation of MMRCA.

Now these DGMF corporate head honchos expect, reputed MNC tank makers who are the guardians of the most secretive tech in the world to to give TOT and sole rights to them after working for prize money!!!

DO they really expect that the home countries where these tank makers operate will permit such contract labor leading to all TOT and sole IP rights to be vested in the hands of IA?

How senile people can get in DGMF?

DGMF are making a joke out of themselves but it is good, the whole forum and the public can see exactly what people face when dealing with such farce and why the Arjun one day had to have a HSU, the other day a torsion bar, the third day talk of this gadget. Bunch of guys who don't know what they want and will keep domestic industry idling its wheels.

And the assorted poseurs who are defending their actions are merely exposing how he/she completely lacks any real world exposure. Another keyboard expert no doubt, expecting y'all to explain what the realities of life are & you all are obliging.

If there is anything that shows that the internet can now give any fellow with zero common sense and a big mouth a "voice" so they can spout rubbish, it is this.

DGMF has had multiple events over the past many years where vendors have trotted out their claims, counter claims. DGMF yet is now asking for a RFI for same data.

It has CVRDE in Chennai, IRDE in Dehradun, its own inhouse test crew, Alpha in Bangalore who are putting together its Elop sourced TISAS/TIFCS - yet it now asks for FCS info in a RFI.

I mean, the above is an example of how clueless the org is. It has no idea of iterative improvement whatsoever and thinks everything can be cobbled together from what vendors give it.

No clear idea of what it wants so vendors respond accordingly.

The joke of a RFI is meant so that DGMF will cobble together all specs and release a RFP with a hybrid tank that cherry picks all the claims from all the differing proposals.

Everyone laughs, the luckless sods at DRDO are stuck with another unobtainable project, citing operational urgency, DGMF imports Armata and the saga goes on. Farce of the highest order.

 

[ersakthivel]

again, what does all of this have to RFI being shit? This is for a tank to be inducted in the time line 2030 yes? So what is wrong in asking for RFI , asking about what kind of futuristic tech can you provide?

And as for MNCs not going to respond, lets see.

To be fair we should not criticize this RFI, because it has nothing in it!!!!

That was the intention behind making such an RFI, nothing on it, no one is accountable what ever happens in future. The present lot in DGMF goes home with the honor of "sowing the seeds of FRCV manufacture in india"!!!

Ten years down the line we wont even have a tractor ready from this RFI and citing the grave urgency of the next state of the art chinese tank that is to be introduced in to PAK army we will go for a whole sale purcahse of armata!!!

remember how MMRCA backers in IAF fooled the nation for the decade by repeatedly saying that TOT from MMRCA will help building AMCA and tejas mk2 in various forums and chats including strat post fartfest sponsored by Vayu?. Where are these guys hiding now?

No one in the world is going to sell their tech to IA. They are all ready to sell products and make billions. Who wants to go out of business after giving sole IP rights to IA for the world best tank in 2020/

if IA gives this IP to DRDO and india starts exporting then how will they do business?

 

[Archer]

In the 1971 war, the Indian Centurions trounced Pakistani tanks. India promptly declared post war the tanks were heavy, hard to maintain, so they were sold off dirt cheap to the South Africans and Israelis who gladly took them and kept them well into the 90's. The South African Olifant is still around. India then imported the Vickers MBT and the G-clan eased things through. Gun was good, the tank was crap because of weak armor and engine packing up. IA purchased tons of them, over a thousand. The EME then decided to make a tank based on the Vickers but its flaws removed and the tank optimized for Indian conditions. That was the birth of the Arjun program. Meanwhile, Russia offered us the T-72 and IA happily ignored how the tank was nowhere near its next gen GSQR and took it (and good they did, because at least it was better than the Vickers). Meanwhile Arjun gets into proto form but now IA decides it wants more. Another decade in redesign again for trials. Again IA wants more because Pakistan is trialling Abrams. So, India has to create an Abrams killer. The 40 ton design with 1000 hp engine gets shelved, we get KMW to India to make an Indian leopard, they hedge on TOT because of NATO issues, we finally come up with Arjun which is our own take on what we need. After design gets into full specs, IA now says too heavy because hey, the T-72 is the new standard. And because the tank is delayed since every trial has to be A+, lets get T-90 - whose engines pack up, whose sights dont work. Meanwhile Arjun twiddles thumbs and Mk-2 is ordered with IA required improvements which make it even heavier. And then IA says GUYS GUYS we want FMBT. Launched in 2010, nobody responds. DRDO say you have to be kidding us when they see FMBT specs. Now IA releases FRCV, with even more brilliance saying "GUYS GUYS you tell us what we need" and then we'll do RFP. What a sad sad farce the entire IA procurement is Meanwhile handful of Arjuns ordered and all suppliers say too few for us to make items in number unless you order in bulk. IA has 1600 T-90 planned even tho they dont work. Truly bizarre

 

[Khagesh]

Allow me to address two points:

1) why for 'Mad Indian' and 'Bhadra' - both guys are irrelevant for a real exchange of views or for real competition, except as sparing partners or sand bags. We owe it to other Indians reading these threads to tell them the history and rationale. So we can have more people fighting the sell-outs, traitors, lazy guys and foreign-pasand idiots. Somebody once told me that Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh was started with just 6 kids - you can see the results today.

2) why attack the Indian Army - Actually all attentive people would have seen how much effort is being taken to protect the Indian Army and to target a set of worthless creatures within it. Mature people can understand how a corrupted political party can be excised without harming and infact actually benefiting the larger nation. This is not too different. Unless the people who have facts and history with them speak out this circus of undermining Indian efforts to benefit foreigners, will not end, ever. Ours is a volunteer's army where most people simply retire around 40 and above Col. etc. level the promotions are not seniority based. These situations allow for a politicized officer class and a much more danger for the volunteers who constitute the real army. Again people should step up to call a DGMF, what he really is. This is again not merely about the DGMF. This is about making sure that the volunteer army gets the most amount of ammo and boots and food and benefits without the resources getting wasted buying high initial cost items, that leave little for the less visible things.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Crossing river - T-90 - crossing river... I do not know why 30 Characters ??

lol..... It looks like crossing the river is only capability you want ...... But can t90 fight in rajasthan or in pakistan where heat wave is killing people when it posses no ac? Our crew will die of heat..... Suicide tanker t90....

 

[Khagesh]

Mein to bolta hun itna whine karo ke DGMF bhi fir sey apna kaam shuru karey aur is bar dhang se kare.

Our brave DGMF wants to have a Bridge Laying Tank version of FCRV also. Now the BLTs have the tank chassis itself serving as the counterweight for the bridge with a massive fulcrum in front of the chassis to balance out the long bridge.

For their MLC-70s the world taken to 7*2*2 wheeled tank versions like Leopard Tanks and M-1 Abrams. US Army too wants to move out of the old Patton Tank based BLT onto the 28 wheeled Abrams based Wolverine (they too have budget constraints). Now obviously a BLT has to handle prescribed weights but in addition to that it also has to be of desired lengths. With the DRDO 40 meter bridge already having been made and subsequently rejected by Indian Army, DRDO has now taken up the desired 46 meter MLC-70 single span. This is being prototype tested. But the bridge length is directly proportional to the counterweight too.

Now for the DGMF - Sahib ji how long a bridge are you going to get out of your FRCV? Are you going to give up the 46 meter single span or will you make the FRCV also carry the 46 mtr single span? Was that need also merely to pass time while your masters bring in the product meant for you? Would you be accepting the 40 meter bridge now, which was earlier rejected?

DRDO has already shown that their idea works well by having the Arjun MBT cross the bridge laid. It is there on the net for people interested. So obviously now I guess DGMF should be putting in requests to his paki counterpart to have paki nullahs modified so the Indian FCRV based BLTs can bridge it easily. Sir jji kuch to bolo - mail kar di pakistaniyon ko ya abhi woh bhi nahi kiya?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Bhadra you are the one who is having a pointless discussion.... Hawa me goli mat maar.
.
.
if there is an attack on rajasthan desert, we can never answer it with t90 ...... It will be suicide of crew.... Neither t90 can not be used in panjab cause of high ground pressure...

 

[Bhadra]

Bahut Mirchi Lagi hai wo Bhi Andhre wali....

You morons, if you feel DGMF RFI is trash why does not any one of you produce a bloody five page
RFI (one page RFI will be out of your combined wisdom)...

Do you know what is Sutra Vangmaya in Indian tradition ??? Very very far away from you irrelevent reservationist DODOs..

Harek Baat Pe Kahte ho ki Tu kya hai ??

Do read the mission statement of DRDO: and act accordingly:

 

[Shaitan]

Dude, da hell? you must be more informed than this. Even I kow that Navy systems are indigenous in name only. The only thing indigenous about Navy ships is the hulls . Even the engines are imported by the "indigenous ships"

Navy is inducting several DRDO sub systems into it's naval designs. Most of them have alternatives. Sure, the main Aegis type radar, engine, or main gun isnt designed in India, but there are several new DRDO system that are in Indian ships. And they're hands on with these projects, that are designed for them.

http://**********/attachments/4bfdb5be5a747c60f5782e5b00ce2126-jpg.82682/

Some examples.

Hell they're even partially funding the N-LCA.

And now want to buy a Rustom-1 variant, which they sure has hell could go abroad for.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...itime-boundary-with-lanka-115062600006_1.html

 

[Shaitan]

This is the kind of answer I needed, not moronic rants that Army is corrupt. So yes, I agree you have a point. @Bhadra and @karn have to answer this question and for now I will agree with you.

But now explain why this RFI is BS. None of the posts in this thread has given even a remote reason on why it is so,

How do you not even know about that report first of all? You come to this thread, and NOT know that report? This was talked about well before.

 

[pmaitra]

To be fair we should not criticize this RFI, because it has nothing in it!!!!

This is best laconic response one could give in defence of the RFI.

Maan gaye!

In the 1971 war, the Indian Centurions trounced Pakistani tanks. India promptly declared post war the tanks were heavy, hard to maintain, so they were sold off dirt cheap to the South Africans and Israelis who gladly took them and kept them well into the 90's. The South African Olifant is still around. India then imported the Vickers MBT and the G-clan eased things through. Gun was good, the tank was crap because of weak armor and engine packing up. IA purchased tons of them, over a thousand. The EME then decided to make a tank based on the Vickers but its flaws removed and the tank optimized for Indian conditions. That was the birth of the Arjun program. Meanwhile, Russia offered us the T-72 and IA happily ignored how the tank was nowhere near its next gen GSQR and took it (and good they did, because at least it was better than the Vickers). Meanwhile Arjun gets into proto form but now IA decides it wants more. Another decade in redesign again for trials. Again IA wants more because Pakistan is trialling Abrams. So, India has to create an Abrams killer. The 40 ton design with 1000 hp engine gets shelved, we get KMW to India to make an Indian leopard, they hedge on TOT because of NATO issues, we finally come up with Arjun which is our own take on what we need. After design gets into full specs, IA now says too heavy because hey, the T-72 is the new standard. And because the tank is delayed since every trial has to be A+, lets get T-90 - whose engines pack up, whose sights dont work. Meanwhile Arjun twiddles thumbs and Mk-2 is ordered with IA required improvements which make it even heavier. And then IA says GUYS GUYS we want FMBT. Launched in 2010, nobody responds. DRDO say you have to be kidding us when they see FMBT specs. Now IA releases FRCV, with even more brilliance saying "GUYS GUYS you tell us what we need" and then we'll do RFP. What a sad sad farce the entire IA procurement is Meanwhile handful of Arjuns ordered and all suppliers say too few for us to make items in number unless you order in bulk. IA has 1600 T-90 planned even tho they dont work. Truly bizarre

British Army, Russian Army, American Army = Pioneers.
Indian Army = Copy-Pasta.