Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Bhadra]

Are you suggesting that India should also put all its eggs in this Raptor-on-tracks . I am sure DGMF will be all ears. He thinks it is a good idea to give add a gas-turbine engine also into the tank to help the dumb IC engine.

You have grudges against DGMF not me. You seem to be typical supporter of employment of elephants in the battle - old habits die hard. That is why you guys have produced an elephant in the name of Arjun who was very light and agile.

My my, do I detect a twinge of pain in chest for the lack of funding.

i CAN ALSO DETECT PAIN BUT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

USER=9097@Bhadra Bhai after the US has developed this tank let us see how many they order. It is easy to make a dream machine but damn near impossible to protect and sell it.

Projectiles, ballistics, missilery, are moving so fast in real life R&D that most of these new tanks will be useless before they get inducted in any useful numbers.

Why would you want a damn well armed thing literally sitting on the ground. What hcuking rationale allows that !?

So DGMF should not even think of a new tank ... AND NO ONE ELSE TOO..

What do you think of Armata..

Arjun Chalta hai na... larai to honi nahin hai ... inko bolane do..apani dukan chalani chahiye....

 

[Khagesh]

What do you think of Armata..

Can be bettered, given fair play.

Arjun Chalta hai na... larai to honi nahin hai ... inko bolane do..apani dukan chalani chahiye....

You really cannot patronize the makers of Arjun. They have beaten the 'DGMF's best' in Many-On-Many.

And since Chawinda the vaunted DGMF has not run any real campaign. 71 was something like 3:1 superiority in the relevant front. The Longewala 71 itself shows the utter vulnerability of the tank forces should they lose the initial momentum and surprise. And come to think of it no tank battle after 65 Chawinda, the world over including the vaunted Israeli ones, ever amounted to anything more than a 'few rich boys ganging up on a vagabond'. Best example Desert Storm. While the Warsaw pact never attempted anything-they only threatened it, like forever-not that I doubt amassed armour-but it definitely shows the limitations.

It is another matter entirely that some people want to load up Tanks on C-17s and fight tank battles in the Himalayas.

 

[Bhadra]

Can be bettered, given fair play.



You really cannot patronize the makers of Arjun. They have beaten the 'DGMF's best' in Many-On-Many.

And since Chawinda the vaunted DGMF has not run any real campaign. 71 was something like 3:1 superiority in the relevant front. The Longewala 71 itself shows the utter vulnerability of the tank forces should they lose the initial momentum and surprise. And come to think of it no tank battle after 65 Chawinda, the world over including the vaunted Israeli ones, ever amounted to anything more than a 'few rich boys ganging up on a vagabond'. Best example Desert Storm. While the Warsaw pact never attempted anything-they only threatened it, like forever-not that I doubt amassed armour-but it definitely shows the limitations.

It is another matter entirely that some people want to load up Tanks on C-17s and fight tank battles in the Himalayas.

@Khagesh

Nations keep Armies to avoid (deter) wars. Armies fight wars when unavoidable. If there has not been a war since 1971 necessitating employment of armor, then it is a success of Indian Army's deterrence. Not success of your technical prowess. If you do not know this fundamentals stop commenting on defense matters.

 

[Khagesh]

@Khagesh

Nations keep Armies to avoid (deter) wars. Armies fight wars when unavoidable. If there has not been a war since 1971 necessitating employment of armor, then it is a success of Indian Army's deterrence. Not success of your technical prowess. If you do not know this fundamentals stop commenting on defense matters.

Dekho sahib, yun ke maine ek se ek jaalim dekha magar tum jaisa patthar dil na dekha.

If you go off on a tangent then we cannot be tied to the ground either. You brought in the American Tank. Remember the following post of yours:

@ersakthivel and other DRDO fanboys

I am going to flood you with so many specifics of ( US FCS) RFI that you will hide behind Arjun Tank and your baloon of no details provided will go fus - fus ...

I agree about the deterrence though and defensive maneuvers and thrusts and much more. So yes Arjun Mk-1, Mk-2 and later Marks are all relevant, notwithstanding the Russian Armata and American Future Combat System.

There is no reason later Marks of Arjun cannot go several notches up. There is enough room in that machine.

 

[jackprince]

People talk about DGMF's vision and needs for future combat preparedness and how they are shortchnaged because of DRDO's lack of performance, always conveniently forgetting about always shifting and changing needs in the system and never standing by to support the domestic product. I still get a bit amazed how come the vaunted DGMF forgot their possible battle-ground would be deserts of Rajasthan and that the enemy would not be so considerate to attack in winters that T-90s would not need air conditioners. They inducted those tanks in how many nos. before they realised that? And what did they do after they realised that? To whom they went crying for help when Russians denied help integrating Air conditioners? DRDO?

If the brass and metals of DGMF were so intelligent and visionary, how come they did not go for trial of T-90s in Indian conditions before induction, when they threw in one after another trial on the homemade Arjun? Particularly since T-90 was made for European battle fields which is nowhere near close to tropical climate of ours. Even a moron would have thought of testing a product before digging in the pocket.

I suspect the problem being the cream they received from Russia in form of monetary and other kind- like the naval brass whose pic came up with the Russian beauty?

So, those who are crying at octave that let the DGMF decide what is best, may be they should not be? The money that goes purchasing those goodies, are not pereonal money from their pocket.

Also, if this is called an RFI, the next one would definitely win the 1st prize at sci-fi category. Well if they are such visionaries that they can not envision the possible combination of weaponaries the FCV is supposed to carry, may be the time has come to remove them from thinking too much. The armoured corps has not had anything to do for close to half-a-century, and I guess that has made them complacent. The whole t90 fiasco is the living proof that the whole system for procurement of armour needs to be overhauled, and DGMF should not be trusted. May be DM should get some independent advisors on board to review all the demands of armed forces.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel and other DRDO fanboys

I am going to flood you with so many specifics of ( US FCS) RFI that you will hide behind Arjun Tank and your baloon of no details provided will go fus - fus ...

You wrongly accused DRDO of copy pasting once!!!

Does all the stuff you are posting here comes from your Phd research papers?

 

[ersakthivel]

Logistics Are the Key to the FCS (More so Under Indian Conditions)


The M1 Abrams, though inarguably one of the most capable and potent tanks ever produced, must cease operations for refueling at least once every 8 hours under normal operational conditions. (What about Arjun?)


Its ammunition and other critical consumables could be readily depleted in a very short time during heavy combat. ( For Arjun can not be found!!)

Like all contemporary modern tanks, the M1 requires a long and vulnerable logistic support “tail” that severely
delimits its deployability and operability. In an era when power projection is critical, strong logistical dependency is not acceptable over the long run. (This logistics requirement under Indian condition is a nightmare specially in obstacle ridden terrain and possibility of enmy interjection in between to seperate main force and logistics train)



The current goal is to reduce the logistic burden by at least 50%. Unfortunately, armored force maneuver
and the intensity level of its attack are frequently limited by the capabilities of logistic support infrastructures, rather than the inherent ability of the tank itself. (What’s new?... Wasn’t General Patton short of fuel while rapidly advancing in France? Or for that matter, Field Marshal Rommel in North Africa?). ( That may be true but it is not acceptable in short intense and sudden operations such as CSD)

A modern fast-maneuvering army must reduce its reliance on restrictive logistic support systems while consuming fewer limited resources. ( DODO can think of driving the tank with sugar cane juice as sugar cane is available in plenty on both sides of Western border)

On July 17, 1996, Major General Robert Scales, Deputy Chief of Staff for Doctrine at the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC), expressed his conception in the Defense Daily newsletter, 17 that the Army’s operational revolution relies upon effective utilization of better technologies and techniques to support ground forces. The key issue at hand is to be able to “temporarily break from the logistics umbilical cord...” restoring the rapid maneuvering of dispersed formations so essential to full exploitation of armor firepower, shock, and mobility. According to General Scales, the Army will be able to create a dominant Force XXI by employing alternative sources of enenergy for mobility and propulsion, while reducing the traditional restricting dependency on rations, ammunition, and spare parts. This same underlying philosophy has played a paramount role in the derivation of our FCS concept.

__________________________

DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU ?

but at the end of the day the heavy M1A1 can withstand a direct hit from any mountain ponies you have posted here , because it has the weight and volume to afford a decent protection.

On the other hand the future combat system that is being elaborated here will be torn to pieces from tomorrows 2000 mts per second 150 mm dia shells with long rod penetrators.

So what is the use of unprecedented cross country mobility and fuel economy like hero honda when they meet their death in the first brush with enemy?

Thats why US is not funding them and still fielding the Abrams. Russians too have realized their folly with medium tank cant go on forever after many of them were tron to pieces in chechnya war. So they are also upgrading to 55 to 60 ton Armata with enough protection( but no one knows whether they are good enough in indian condition or offer any convincing advantage over arjun mk2)

 

[manindra]

Logistics Are the Key to the FCS (More so Under Indian Conditions)


The M1 Abrams, though inarguably one of the most capable and potent tanks ever produced, must cease operations for refueling at least once every 8 hours under normal operational conditions. (What about Arjun?)


Its ammunition and other critical consumables could be readily depleted in a very short time during heavy combat. ( For Arjun can not be found!!):

Sir, M1 AAbrahams have Gas Turbine Engine which are Fuel guzzler but American prefer them due to their less noise compared to diesel engines as they called M1 Whispering Death. US logistics capability is unmatchable in the world.
RRussia got suffered due they failed to support their gas turbine powered T-80s in Georgian war.
Arjun is diesel powered so it would not face same condition like gas turbine powered tanks.
Regarding ammunition or other logistical problems same face by all tanks.
Regarding Indian Army bitching in qualities issues are feel bad in taste as this is the same Army which settle on monkey model of T-90 which electronics melts in desert like wax, have no armour ( settle on kanchan armour) , have inferior gun, engine breakdown & heating problem in desert.
This superior monkey model of T-90 ordered in thousand without whispering a single word.

 

[Bhadra]

Do You Have in You : You are in Tank Business for Last Sixty Years : Where is Tank EX

You only sell dreams to IA but nothing else
Now Make This and Export it to USA and NATO

​

 

[Bhadra]

Sunate Ho Ji : Kya ye Bana Sakate Ho ; Nahin To Kuchh Sikho Ya To Chup Raho

​

 

[Bhadra]

NO ARMATA T-14 : MAKE THIS : DO NOT WASTE YOU TIME IN CRYING: CONTRIBUTE TO THE NATION IF YOU CAN OR GET ASIDE​

 

[aliyah]

NO ARMATA T-14 : MAKE THIS : DO NOT WASTE YOU TIME IN CRYING: CONTRIBUTE TO THE NATION IF YOU CAN OR GET ASIDE​

what really is this |

 

[ezsasa]

@Bhadra, all your points are noted i guess. But are the americans even submitting their designs in the contest. If not, then all your dreams are what they are. DREAMS is n't it?

 

[Bhadra]

tHE drdo CAN SUBMIT DESIGNS

@Bhadra, all your points are noted i guess. But are the americans even submitting their designs in the contest. If not, then all your dreams are what they are. DREAMS is n't it?

A design is a dream that can be put into effect for a consideration ( That is cost or money)... DRDO has been a dream seller in India ...dreams ... big dreams to Defence community,,, Lots of money of Tax payers like you and me ... but no fruitation.. No accountability .. playing bosses rather than scientists..

Thirty years ago I read of Ram Jet Engines, satl navigation, nutron bombs , thermo nuclear devices, mini nukes, and communication for Section Commander, a light antitank man portable missile called Nag.. HHTI, IR sights, Tank Camo that can be detected, Trishule.. VLF communications, towed array sonars. dopplers .... what not and what not... my heart used to feel good. Alas ! I kept waiting under the banana tree to see those dreams fall.. and finally when I got the HHTIs after thirty years, they were of Thales or some Israeli firms stamped BEL imported by DPSUs or DRDO.. with no chargers.. no spare batteries... but in spite, I still killed terrorists.. lots of them at a dear cost which could have been avoided had DODOs delivered !! Had those stamping DPSUs delivered .. but it was not to be so .. they were into a game of money making..

What I have demonstrated in my posts is a well considered and researched US dream that can be made true.. reasonably ..so what if it is American ? For DODOs US dreams and Russian reality - Armata is but nonsense ..

What DGMF have asked in their RFI is that what is your dream, then can you make it to prototyping before manufacturing the dream... give us ideas .. DRDO have none... their dream is to thrust Arjun down the throat of Indian Army.. and the more they shout about it the less is becoming difficult for the environment to accept it.. simply they can fool users.. neither the DGMF nor the DRDO... rotten eggs smell bad .. DRDO produces rotten eggs for the Army.

So what virtually DGMF are asking is that beside DRDO is there any other dream seller... let us also see him as we are fed up with dreams of DODOs.

Any thing wrong in that ??

 

[ezsasa]

tHE drdo CAN SUBMIT DESIGNS


A design is a dream that can be put into effect for a consideration ( That is cost or money)... DRDO has been a dream seller in India ...dreams ... brig dreams to Defence community,,, Lots of money but no fruitation..

Thirty years ago I read of Ram Jet Engines, satl navigation and communication for Section Commander, a light antitank man portable missile called Nag.. HHTI, IR sights, Trishule.. VLF communications .... what not and what not... I kept waiting under the banana tree to see those dreams.. and finally when I got the HHTIs after thirty years, they were of Thales or some Israeli firms stamped BEL.. with no chargers.. no spare batteries... but in spite I still killed terrorists.. lots of them at a cost which could have been avoided had DODOs delivered !!

What I have demonstrated in my posts is a dream that can be made true.. reasonably ..so what it is American ?

What DGMF have asked in their RFI is that what is your dream, then can you make it to prototyping before manufacturing the dream... give us ideas .. DRDO have none... their dream is to thrust Arjun down the throat of Indian Army.. and the more they shout about it the less is it difficult.. simply they can fool users.. neither the DGMF nor the DRDO... rotten eggs smell bad ..

So what virtually they are asking is that beside DRDO is there any other dream seller... let us also see him as we are fed up with dreams of DODOs.

Any thing wrong in that ??

Whether DRDO will submit any design for this competition or not is irrelevant to me, all i care about is what companies/designs are participating in the competition.

as per you FCS is an option, so be it. Maybe we can try and figure out what are the other possible contenders for this competition. That would be way more fun, i guess!!!!

So what other contemporary Tank designs , you have in mind. Maybe you can share with us. You can leave out Armata.

 

[Bhadra]

@ezsasa

I am neither from DGMF nor from DRDO .. I am simply a DFI Defence enthusiast... I AM NOT INSIDER BUT A VOTER OF THE DESIGN COMPETITION WHICH DODO ARE OPPOSING VEHEMENTLY ON FLIMSY GROUNDS... RFI IS WRONG AND CANCEL IT - SEEMS TO BE THE PARTY LINE OF DODOs

 

[Mad Indian]

@Khagesh @ersakthivel @bose


Instead of bitching about the RFI on how it is rigged to suit Armada, why dont the DRDO just design their own Armada? Are they incompetent?

 

[aliyah]

mahindra's design will be 125mm turret on their Scorpio

 

[Bhadra]

UDI BABA : DODOs ALSO TRIED TO SELL TANK EX TO INDIAN ARMY

​

The Tank Ex is the latest Indian prototype main battle tank (MBT). This MBT uses the chassis of the T-72M1 (Ajeya) and turret and weapon system of the Arjun. It was developed in 2002 as a private venture and was intended to provide a solution for upgrading the Indian Army's ageing T-72M1 fleet. It was rejected by the Indian Army after two prototypes and six months of trials.

On July 5, 2008, Gen. Dalip Bhardwaj, the Indian Army's Director General of Mechanized forces (DGMF), declared that the army had rejected Tank Ex. This was part of an announcement that there would be no further orders for Arjun tanks, and that the military would be inviting participants from various countries to discuss future tank developments.

Weighing in at 47 tons, the Tank Ex is heavier than the T-72M1 (41 tons) and much lighter than the Arjun MBT, (58.4 tons). It has a 1,000 hp (700 kW) power plant giving a power-to-weight ratio of 21 hp (16 kW)/ton for a total weight of 47 tons. This represents an improvement over the T-72M1's 20 hp (15 kW)/ton, with a weight of 41 tons and a 780 hp (582 kW) power plant. The Tank Ex utilizes the Arjun MBT's 120 mm rifled gun firing unitary APFSDS and HESH semi combustible cartridge case ammunition. A total of 32 rounds are carried, as compared with 39 in the Arjun and 45 two piece rounds in the T-72.[3] A global positioning system is provided for accurate navigation.This is a feature common to both the Arjun MBT and the Combat Improved Ajeya.

The Tank Ex utilizes the "Kanchan" composite armor, especially over its frontal arc (turret as well as glacis), giving it protection against both Kinetic and HEAT rounds.[2][3] The usage of the Arjun turret design indicates that the Tank Ex may also have its "ready" ammunition stored in the bustle (as in the Arjun), separated from the crew and provided with blow-off panels. This would be a significant protective feature comparable with Western design practices. The Tank Ex retains the T-72's mobility, with a road speed of 60 km/h and a cross-country speed of 40 km/h.[3][5] With a maximum gradient climb of 30 degrees, it remains in line with all variants of the T-72, like the T-72BM. The Tank Ex is better at trench crossing with a capability of crossing 2.6 meters as compared to the T-72M1's 2.28 meters. The Tank Ex can also climb vertical obstacles up to 0.85 meters tall. The tank's shallow fording capabilities are quoted as 1.2 meters. The Tank Ex should also have the capability to fire the Israeli LAHAT missile from its gun-barrel, like the Arjun.
__________________________________________________________________

So it is not for nothing that DODOs are opposing this RFI tooth and nail. They have been long being trying their stunts ... but failed to provide a suitable solution..

SUNATE HO JI ... DANE BIK GAYE .. SAMAJHATE HO NA .. AB PAGAL HO GAYE !!

 

[ezsasa]

@ezsasa

I am neither from DGMF nor from DRDO .. I am simply a DFI Defence enthusiast... I AM NOT INSIDER BUT A VOTER OF THE DESIGN COMPETITION WHICH DODO ARE OPPOSING VEHEMENTLY ON FLIMSY GROUNDS... RFI IS WRONG AND CANCEL IT - SEEMS TO BE THE PARTY LINE OF DODOs

Your point of view is abundantly clear from your previous posts. I don't think anybody(atleast i am not) is holding DRDO at a higher pedestal than required. DRDO in it's current state is mostly due to legacy issues,Let's leave it there.

My point is "Let's forget DRDO for a second". As a defence enthusiast, would it be possible for you to share some OTHER contemporary designs(available in the market) which suits the Govt's intent to "Replace T-72". if you could share some info, it would be great. If not let's leave it there,cool no problem.