Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

even medium weight tank will weigh near 54 tons..... So how can 50 ton bridge will carry it @Bhadra ji

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Do India Really Need Medium tank project? It is better to go with New anti tank missile than buying New tank

Your next post in AMCA thread will be- why we need such project, instead buy more SAMs

 

[tharikiran]

We need to look at this requirement from the client perspective, i.e, the army. If the army gives concrete figures about what it wants, it gives them very less room for maneuver at a future date.When one leaves the specifications in a broader sense it gives them that wiggle room and get things done or demand things from the builder at the last moment or once the builder is committed (locked in) and cant walk out.What most of the members have mentioned is correct. No concrete numbers were given and ambiguity has been maintained .They want the Armata for sure.The good thing is someone like Parrikar will see through it.

 

[Kharavela]

Won't it be cheap to get generals, tanks and crew from Russia?

Good suggestion, Sir. But the only problem I can imagine is - Russia has lot less Crew than India requires. Though I can hope our DGMF guys can think of solution for that also.

 

[Kharavela]

So far "Modular" "medium" "contemporary MBT" is concerned - you righty start shouting Armata but conveniently forget Markava ... the design philosophy of Armata is half Markava - totally western.

It's not Markava, it's Merkava. And I thought you know about tanks...

 

[Kharavela]

Here are three RFIs issued by IA:

1) FRCV - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf

2) RECONNAISSANCE & SURVEILLANCE (RSH) HELICOPTERS - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/407/Avn290914.pdf.

3) LIGHT BULLET PROOF VEHICLE (LBPV) - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/435/RFI LBPV1.pdf

Read at leisure and decide for yourself the differences in the drafting of these.


And try to find the answer for the following question:

• If the IA can ask for detailed information in 2 cases does it not fall on the IA to tell in detail what they are looking for?

@Khagesh Sir, I wanted to ask the same question to @Bhadra ji & @Mad Indian ji.

If DGMF can provide details in 2 of the 3 RFIs published, why details of requirement were not provided in RFI for FRCV ?? Was that intentional ?? Does that lead to some pre-decided direction / conclusion ??

One more question. Accepting all the shortfalls of DRDO, can somebody clarify why Indian Army did not took OWNERSHIP of all projects related to IA ?? Why did IA chose not to be engaged with the project from definition to production phase ???

 

[Kharavela]

You probably missed the edit.

Here again for your benefit:
If the IA can ask for detailed information in 2 cases does it not fall on the IA to tell in detail what they are looking for?

Even if DGMF is looking for a Lego Set MBT, he should say so clearly.

Sir, How can DGMF say clearly that they want Armata ?? मनोहर परिकर रक्षा मंत्री रहते कैसे हो सकता है ? बोलने से पहले कुछ तो सोचिये !!

 

[Kharavela]

And so it is proved that this thread is full of junk and useless army bashing by people with no qualification at all in this matter

No one is bashing Army per se. Bashing is reserved for that idiot DGMF & his staff who drafted that RFI.

Everyone praised IA for Operation All Out at Myanmar border.

अब जैसा काम करोगे, फल वैसा ही मिलेगा न भैया !! चु*यापा करोगे तो चारो तरफ से डंडा ही बजेगा ।

 

[pmaitra]

Here are three RFIs issued by IA:

1) FRCV - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf

2) RECONNAISSANCE & SURVEILLANCE (RSH) HELICOPTERS - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/407/Avn290914.pdf.

3) LIGHT BULLET PROOF VEHICLE (LBPV) - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/435/RFI LBPV1.pdf

Read at leisure and decide for yourself the differences in the drafting of these.


And try to find the answer for the following question:

• If the IA can ask for detailed information in 2 cases does it not fall on the IA to tell in detail what they are looking for?

Excellent post. Thank you for posting this. I think this puts to rest a lot of doubts in the minds of those that have been fence sitters so far.

 

[Zebra]

IA has their own engineering services.

Just like.....MES ; EME.......

They can design it as per their need.

And if they can't, then forget it.

Anyway, my two cents.

 

[Bhadra]

Excellent post. Thank you for posting this. I think this puts to rest a lot of doubts in the minds of those that have been fence sitters so far.

Since when have you started delving into black, white and fence sitters ...

So you are indulging into a deliberate media campaign - to attract fence sitters !

If this is the state of moderators then what will happen ?

 

[pmaitra]

Since when have you started delving into black, white and fence sitters ...

So you are indulging into a deliberate media campaign - to attract fence sitters !

If this is the state of moderators then what will happen ?

I like how you try to drag me into a discussion everytime I try to walk away.

If this might sooth your ruffled feathers, I just want to remind you that I am not trying to convince people to cross the fence to favour DRDO. I am trying to convince people to cross the fence towards any entity that will make a tank in India, generate jobs in India, keep the knowhow within India, release India from foreign dependency and susceptibility to potential sanctions.

Let the Tatas, Mahindras, or Hindujas build the tank, for all I care. I want it made in India with Indian R&D as much as possible. Therein lies India's interest.

People who have seen me post long enough know that I am one of the greatest pro-Russian members out here. For a person like me to oppose a vague request that eerily looks like an attempt to bring the Armata in, you can rest assured that I am dead serious about what I am saying.

Being a moderator does not obligate one to be a shill for the import lobby.

 

[Bhadra]

@Khagesh Sir, I wanted to ask the same question to @Bhadra ji & @Mad Indian ji.

If DGMF can provide details in 2 of the 3 RFIs published, why details of requirement were not provided in RFI for FRCV ?? Was that intentional ?? Does that lead to some pre-decided direction / conclusion ??

One more question. Accepting all the shortfalls of DRDO, can somebody clarify why Indian Army did not took OWNERSHIP of all projects related to IA ?? Why did IA chose not to be engaged with the project from definition to production phase ???

If the shape, size, nuts and bolts are given then what is the design for ? What will designer do ?
If there are specifications then then how does one chooses between the designs?
The other RFI are in specifics and procurement ... or are those also for design ?
The RFI for FRCV is for design, to be followed by prototype building and finally production... And I suppose production in India ... May be by Ambani, TATA or Mahindra may not be CVRDE or any other DRDO Union.

The DRDO fan boys exhibit their crass ignorance in such fashion that one starts believing they probably are not fit to undertake the job and show their natural instincts of using unfair words for others ....

Please think before you write.

 

[Bhadra]

I like how you try to drag me into a discussion everytime I try to walk away.

If this might sooth your ruffled feathers, I just want to remind you that I am not trying to convince people to cross the fence to favour DRDO. I am trying to convince people to cross the fence towards any entity that will make a tank in India, generate jobs in India, keep the knowhow within India, release India from foreign dependency and susceptibility to potential sanctions.

Let the Tatas, Mahindras, or Hindujas build the tank, for all I care. I want it made in India with Indian R&D as much as possible. Therein lies India's interest.

People who have seen me post long enough know that I am one of the greatest pro-Russian members out here. For a person like me to oppose a vague request that eerily looks like an attempt to bring the Armata in, you can rest assured that I am dead serious about what I am saying.

Being a moderator does not obligate one to be a shill for the import lobby.

Discussion is what we all are here for ... provided it is logical...
And I love you moron ... and drag you but not by your collar..

That aside ... This RFI is for design and it clarifies that the winning design will be put through prototype ( it does not say in Russia) and winning prototype will then be finally committed to production ( Not in Uralvagonzavod) while the designer will be associated in all stages.

But look at the DRDO fanboys cry here ( Called Shyapa in Punjabi) - they and you are imagining ghosts where there are none.

At least I am aghast to see that mindset of the people who are supposed to be working for "defence" !!

 

[pmaitra]

@Bhadra ji, I have never had the privilege to sort out my disputes with a gun. Before you think about dragging me by the collar, I hope you can duck faster than I can throw a 50 pound weight. Please keep it civil and show your bravado at your local mandi. This is the internet.

 

[su35]

Your next post in AMCA thread will be- why we need such project, instead buy more SAMs

I did not mean that. The Medium tank strategy was cold war strategy not future one. And regarding SAM Army still does not have enough SHORADs to protect Its Tanks

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra ji, I have never had the privilege to sort out my disputes with a gun. Before you think about dragging me by the collar, I hope you can duck faster than I can throw a 50 pound weight. Please keep it civil and show your bravado at your local mandi. This is the internet.

Just 50 ... not good enough..

However come back to the topic.... This Russian conspiracy theory is in thin air and can not hold water...

Cheap and best is the foundation of economics. India should go for cheap and best ...what is the use of importing half the tank and putting some Indian steel to wrap it around and make it more costly than imported tank ? Does that make for nationalism or economic sense...

India does not follow that nationalist and economic philosophy in all other goods- cell phones, Laptops, computers, electronics, telecommunication, infrastructure, tool, machinery, auto parts , engines, aviation, sensors..

How does nationalism and bad economics come into tanks then ? Profit by cheaper import of goods and services is the economics of the day .

 

[pmaitra]

Just 50 ... not good enough..

However come back to the topic.... This Russian conspiracy theory is in thin air and can not hold water...

Cheap and best is the foundation of economics. India should go for cheap and best ...what is the use of importing half the tank and putting some Indian steel to wrap it around and make it more costly than imported tank ? Does that make for nationalism or economic sense...

India does not follow that nationalist and economic philosophy in all other goods- cell phones, Laptops, computers, electronics, telecommunication, infrastructure, tool, machinery, auto parts , engines, aviation, sensors..

How does nationalism and bad economics come into tanks then ? Profit by cheaper import of goods and services is the economics of the day .

Good enough for you, @Bhadra ji. Don't try to hurl anything over that. You might dislocate your spine.

Regarding the rest of your post, yeah, whatever.

 

[DivineHeretic]

If the shape, size, nuts and bolts are given then what is the design for ? What will designer do ?
If there are specifications then then how does one chooses between the designs?
The other RFI are in specifics and procurement ... or are those also for design ?
The RFI for FRCV is for design, to be followed by prototype building and finally production... And I suppose production in India ... May be by Ambani, TATA or Mahindra may not be CVRDE or any other DRDO Union.

The DRDO fan boys exhibit their crass ignorance in such fashion that one starts believing they probably are not fit to undertake the job and show their natural instincts of using unfair words for others ....

Please think before you write.

Well Sir, irrespective of your attempts to show your infinite understanding, you have absolutely no idea how designers work and what they require to do their work.

Any designer tasked with designing anything requires very clear and detailed understanding of the following.
1. The performance requirements
2. The environment of (expected) operations.
3. The constraints imposed on the product being designed.

The party requesting the design need to be very precise when describing the above requirements. Vague description as in the IA RFI are viewed with derision, because they are meaningless and risky for the designer. In fact, few designers will stick their neck out and accept such a project with such vague requirements, as it leaves the door open for abrupt changes in requirements.

Just to emphasize how dangerous the RFI is for any prospective design firm:

There are several load classes of bridges in the western sector: 20 ton, 45 ton, 60 ton, 70 ton, 100 ton etc etc. So which one does a design firm choose? If they choose the 60 ton , their design is open to rejection by the IA saying that 45 ton carrying capacity or 70 ton bridge should have been chosen. The RFI being vague leaves the door open to rejection/redesigning on such flimsy grounds.

Then there is the problem of the ground: There are fine grained sandy soils, coarse grained sandy soil, silty soil, clay etc etc all with different load bearing capacities at different seasons. So what ground pressure does the design firm choose for the FRCV/FMBT? Without a specified max ground pressure, the design can easily be rejected saying that it is unsuitable for the terrain.

The RFI basically tells "We want a tank" and nothing more. There is nothing in that RFI that any designer can use to make any reasonable assessment of the project.

Just to be clear, I'm not on DRDO's payroll.

 

[sob]

Since when have you started delving into black, white and fence sitters ...

So you are indulging into a deliberate media campaign - to attract fence sitters !

If this is the state of moderators then what will happen ?

Sir, I do not think that this was aimed at you. You definitely are not a fence sitter as we all know.