Indian Army Aviation Wing

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Adux]

Currently CAS is being done MiG-27, Americans are very fond of their A-10C, the production of which has been stopped, and is going to be replaced by F-35A's, basically there is a shift from rugged jets like A-10 and Su-25 into a much more high flying but optically capable fighters, the argument is F-35A's or Rafale's etc can see from further up in the sky better than A-10/Su-25 from lower altitude, therefore shielding them from AA fire, (not manpads or SAMs etc), it is not necessary for them to be thick skinned or armoured like A-10/Su-25. Production of both aircrafts are stopped. In that case, there is absolutely no way, the Army aviation wing will get access to fast jets, and therefore will have to be content with Light combat heli's, and hopefully IAF will give up its claim on Heavy Combat heli's , therefore giving much more better integration to IA's aviation element with the strike corps. We require nearly 300 Gunships.

The Turbo prop option, I dont think will be used by Indian Army aviation elements as part of its strike corps, as they lack pop in pop out capability as well as hover capability of the Heli's .They are better suited for COIN, but we dont not allow airpower in our COIN.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Turbo prop option, I dont think will be used by Indian Army aviation elements as part of its strike corps, as they lack pop in pop out capability as well as hover capability of the Heli's .They are better suited for COIN, but we dont not allow airpower in our COIN.

Jets lack pop in pop out capability so does hover they are useless..

Do you know there is a difference between the kind of electronics and quantity of it, put on a A-10 to that off a Turbo prop, and I am not talking about flares. ( YOU ASKED ABT MANPADS AND COUNTERMEASURES ) IJT is not the answer for sure. Do tell me what is the implications on the Indian scenario

Be specific..

Reason given twice, But twice ignored and asking same thing..

 

[JBH22]

Wonder how the IAF thinks it can afford to give Indian troops CAS with a Mig-27 that its chief himself said that this plane has inherent flaws plus such planes cannot withstand heavy damage which should be the case. flying at 5000m is not close air support

With the introduction of SU-25 or Su-39 let's imagine with Israeli avionics the cold start doctrine would be taking shape, sorry but IAF prime aircraft SU-30MKI cannot become a dedicated platform for CAS

 

[Kunal Biswas]

With the introduction of SU-25 or Su-39 let's imagine with Israeli avionics

 

[black eagle]

Thanks for this video Kunal. Wasn't really aware of the existence of such an aircraft.

 

[Adux]

Jets lack pop in pop out capability so does hover they are useless..

Not really, it seen as one of the most important features in anti-tank warfare. The ability to hide with the terrain and be on target, Something a jet cant do.

Be specific..

Reason given twice, But twice ignored and asking same thing.

Maybe it wasnt the right answer.

AN/ALQ-131(V) Electronic Countermeasures (ECM)�Pod

 

[Adux]

Wonder how the IAF thinks it can afford to give Indian troops CAS with a Mig-27 that its chief himself said that this plane has inherent flaws plus such planes cannot withstand heavy damage which should be the case. flying at 5000m is not close air support

Exactly! But at the same time , how much imaging and precision weapons changed that? Isnt that reason for F-35 replacing A-10.

 

[JBH22]

Exactly! But at the same time , how much imaging and precision weapons changed that? Isnt that reason for F-35 replacing A-10.

Russian experience in Afghanistan and Chechnya(guerilla war), USA is Gulf war (conventional war) both shows that for CAS a rugged plane is needed to support the troops. Consider the present afghan war the F-35 is not the answer imho its more for out all conflict plus we have proof that a dedicated CAS plane cannot be replaced by multi-role plane.

Couple of bullets from Aks or ZU-23mm and these planes are out of action.

Georgian SU-25k Scorpion modernisation

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not really, it seen as one of the most important features in anti-tank warfare. The ability to hide with the terrain and be on target, Something a jet cant do.

Be specific..

You are confusing between different tactics applied by different assets..

Maybe it wasn't the right question asked.

AN/ALQ-131(V) Electronic Countermeasures (ECM)�Pod

Right Word is electronic warfare..

EL/L-8222 self-protection jamming pod (Israel)

http://www.iai.co.il/17917-en/ELTA.aspx


Note: IAF use this pod mainly use in most IAF fighters, Light compact can be used in aircraft, Use in SEAD and jam enemy fighter aircraft, But such ECM are deployed mainly in SEAD missions where in regular CAS its not required, Unless the enemy ground asset have Radar guided AAA / SAM facility..

Against such adversaries dedicated SEAD aircraft are need combine with PGM striker Aircraft..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Super Tucano..

External Hardpoints:	5 hardpoints rated at: centerline (1): 700.00 lb. [A2G/Other] inner wing (2): 1,100.00 lb. [A2G/Other] outer winger (2): 200.00 lb. [A2A/A2G]
Air to Air Ordinance:	centerline (1): None inner wing (2): None outer winger (2): AIM-9 Sidewinder (2), AIM-92 Stinger (4)http://forsakenoutlaw.com/Nation-States/Equipment/Weaponry/m227.htm
Air to Ground Ordinance:	centerline (1): Guided Bomb, Gun Pod, Unguided Bomb inner wing (2): AGM, Guided Bomb, Gun Pod, Rocket Pod, Unguided Bomb outer winger (2): AGM, Guided Bomb, Unguided Bomb
Other Ordinance:	centerline (1): Drop Tank, ECM Pod, Sensor Pod inner wing (2): ECM Pod, Sensor Pod outer winger (2): None
Avionics:	AN/AAQ-22C StarSAFIRE II AN/AAS-35(V)-1 Pave Penny AN/ALQ-211(V)-1 Radar Jamming System AN/ALQ-212(V)-1 ATIRCM
ECM Expendables:	Chaff: 30 bundles Decoys: 0 decoys Flares: 90 flares

 

[bengalraider]

No one asset can be a "silver bullet" what we need to build a credible army aviation corps is the whole package integrating missile and artillery(both gun and tube) assets into a spearhead of sorts when dealing with massed enemy formations.
The assets a good army aviation corps needs is
1RECON-helicopters/UAV'S(heron/nishant/ALH/cheetah)

2SEAD assets- to be located by army UAV's but their destruction is best left to the professionals in the IAF. Though i would aslo advocate the usage of LACM/Smerch assets to destroy any localized vehicle borne/FIxed air defence the enemy might have deployed.

3 ANTI-Armor-pure attack choppers and CAS aircraft(APACHE/KA-52/Frogfoot/LCH).

4 ASSAULT choppers- primarily armed choppers that can hold their own against enemy fire while carrying troops to the front line (MI-35/MI-17)

5 EVAC assets- for evacuation of injured personnel from the battlefield (Mi-8/Mi-17/ALH)

6 LOGISTICS and SUPPLY-for supplying front bases and for airdropping supplies to troops close to the front (MI-17/MI-8)

I believe the rest of the roles should be left to the air forces.


While dealing with Insurgents whithin the boundaries of India we need to be much more careful when deploying aerial assets as any mistake could lead to unnecessary collateral civilan deaths and cause an embarrasment for the army/paramilitaries.here only the assault choppers and UAV's may be employed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1 RECON-Turbo-props/UAV'S(Turbo-prop/heron/nishant/)

2 SEAD assets- best left to the professionals in the IAF.

3 ANTI-Armor- Attack choppers and CAS aircraft( Turbo-prop/Frogfoot/LCH).

4 ASSAULT choppers- primarily armed choppers that can hold their own against enemy fire while carrying troops to the front line (Dhruv / LCH)

5 EVAC assets- for evacuation of injured personnel from the battlefield (ALH)

6 LOGISTICS and SUPPLY-for supplying front bases and for airdropping supplies to troops close to the front ( MTA & ALH ) But the task is mainly for IAF, IA aviation is a supplement for other Units..


While dealing with Insurgents whithin the boundaries of India we need to be much more careful when deploying aerial assets as any mistake could lead to unnecessary collateral civilan deaths and cause an embarrasment for the army/paramilitaries.here only the assault choppers and Small UAV's may be employed.

1234.. ....

Edited..

 

[Tshering22]

I'd be really happier if they could focus on getting the HAL Dhruv gunship ASAP before considering fixed wing fighters and bruising IAF's ego. Besides, fixed wing jets are ALWAYS with any nation's air force. Gunships are fine with Army aviation. However, fixed wing jets are to be retained with IAF. No tow thoughts about it.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Their are only few who denied or looking for attention..


The only change will be a article which says all major strike aircraft including gunships in IAF control, And it will change in time..

Not getting these lines, please explain what they are intended to?

 

[Adux]

Russian experience in Afghanistan and Chechnya(guerilla war), USA is Gulf war (conventional war) both shows that for CAS a rugged plane is needed to support the troops. Consider the present afghan war the F-35 is not the answer imho its more for out all conflict plus we have proof that a dedicated CAS plane cannot be replaced by multi-role plane.

Couple of bullets from Aks or ZU-23mm and these planes are out of action.



Georgian SU-25k Scorpion modernisation

Bullets at 5000-10000 meters? The point is now close air support can be done with same effectiveness and higher precision, from higher up, so threat of AAA, and guns are non- existant, while SAM threat stays.

There are no production of CAS fighters of the category of su-25 and a-10. Turbo props arent going to replace CAS, as they are too slow and vulnerable in hot environment with an enemy like Pakistan, they are good for COIN though. Our options most probably will go to high end jets, but their staying power is quite limited because of high fuel consumption.

 

[JBH22]

Bullets at 5000-10000 meters? The point is now close air support can be done with same effectiveness and higher precision, from higher up, so threat of AAA, and guns are non- existant, while SAM threat stays.

There are no production of CAS fighters of the category of su-25 and a-10. Turbo props arent going to replace CAS, as they are too slow and vulnerable in hot environment with an enemy like Pakistan, they are good for COIN though. Our options most probably will go to high end jets, but their staying power is quite limited because of high fuel consumption.

its the same logic that some claim that with BVR missiles dogfight will become inexistant, while it has been proven time and again BVR is not fool proof the same logic is for CAS. you need to support troops as closer you can.

Identifying target is important and in many case visual identification is still relevant,there was a news report that Russia would resume production of SU-25 in Ulan ude .

As I said earlier a few squadrons for Army air aviation is good Airforce would retain its role in striking large enemy formations,high value targets,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not getting these lines, please explain what they are intended to?

A article called JAAI 86 which was a 1986 agreement between army and airforce on the use of air assets or any airborne asset, he said attack helicopters as they are airborne asset were IAF's domain as per rule, and they are only flown and maintained by IAF, but they would be under army's command. New attack choppers would also be under the army's control and command.

The time this agreement was done, Their is little or no understanding of the concept of attack helo was studied or fielded..
The wake up call was during operation desert storm which show the usefulness of Army / Marine airborne assets..
Few Air-force officers DO run around with this issue, But majority understand today's situation..
Both sides agree on this issue, And with time things will be changed..

For example I myself saw mainly Army aviation helos on recon and casualty evacuation duty most, Few Chetaks of IAF also work but their presence is minimum..

The expansion of IA wing bring less work load on IAF, And they know abt it, IA aviation is a supplement to troops..
And IAF is always their for help..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As I said earlier a few squadrons for Army air aviation is good Airforce would retain its role in striking large enemy formations,high value targets,

The role of Army strike jets/turboprop/helo is to provide CAS to the troops under Air supremacy provided by Air-force, Air-force strategy is to hit strategic location of enemy like Supply depo, Supply chain, C4 structure, Ammunition depo, Airbases, SEAD operation, CAP operation etc..

 

[Yusuf]

What's the difference in the heat signature of piston powered propeller planes and today's jets?
I would imagine it would be far less than jet engines which then means it could be a good CAS option as it negates MANPADS. WWII planes took a lot of damage and still returned home.