Indian Army Aviation Wing

[Kunal Biswas]

And the CAS you are talking about can be easily be provided with the help of attack UAV`s and that is what the US army in Afghanistan doing right now because asking for CAS from the air base wastes the precious time which the combat personnel dont have at the time of action, may it be an army jet or an IAF plane. You will totally agree with me if you have worked with an armed UAV. You may know this that the US army did not call the fighter jets for CAS 0_0. Either they call for gunships or they use their UAV(which they mostly do).

We are talking abt INDIA and still we don't have a indigenous long-range high altitude UAV, And the countries working on dedicated UCAV, are unfinished projects..
In India we may see a dedicated UCAV in next 30-40 years..

Btw, tell me any operational UCAV can drop a 1000lbs PGM from altitude of 8000ft?

 

[Yatharth Singh]

We are talking abt INDIA and still we don't have a indigenous long-range high altitude UAV, And the countries working on dedicated UCAV, are unfinished projects..
In India we may see a dedicated UCAV in next 30-40 years..

So do you think that induction of fighter jets for army aviation will take only a week or what.
And for India to acquire UCAV ,you said it would take 30-40 years. Isnt it a very long period you explained. Wake up dude, in which world are you living. Indian armed forces already operates an indigenous UCAV`s since 2000 which is named as Lakshya PTA. check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshya_PTA

Having a range of 150 km, i think it is quite enough for a troop to get CAS.

Btw, tell me any operational UCAV can drop a 1000lbs PGM from altitude of 8000ft?

I think your all questions can be cleared in the above link.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

So do you think that induction of fighter jets for army aviation will take only a week or what.

Do u know what is UAV?
And Aircraft are available but not the UCAVs..

And for India to acquire UCAV ,you said it would take 30-40 years. Isnt it a very long period you explained. Wake up dude, in which world are you living. Indian armed forces already operates an indigenous UCAV`s since 2000 which is named as Lakshya PTA. check out0_0=heheh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshya_PTA
I think your all questions can be cleared in the above link.

Do u know what is the difference between UAV and PTA??;(

READ AND LEARN....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG_Skat
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/attack/x-45_ucav.html

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Do u know what is UAV?
And Aircraft are available but not the UCAVs..



Do u know what is the difference between UAV and PTA??;(

READ AND LEARN....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG_Skat
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/attack/x-45_ucav.html

The Lakshya is an Indian remotely piloted high speed target drone system(UAV) developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) of DRDO. The drone, remote piloted by a ground control station provides realistic towed aerial sub-targets for live fire training. The drone is ground or ship launched from a zero length launcher and recovery is by a two stage parachute system developed by ADE (DRDO), for land or sea based recovery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshya_PTA

what do you want to say please say it clearly. i am not able to understand your point here.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Lakshya is an Indian remotely piloted high speed target drone system(UAV) developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) of DRDO. The drone, remote piloted by a ground control station provides realistic towed aerial sub-targets for live fire training. The drone is ground or ship launched from a zero length launcher and recovery is by a two stage parachute system developed by ADE (DRDO), for land or sea based recovery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshya_PTA

what do you want to say please say it clearly. i am not able to understand your point here.

Buddy u are mistaking with PTA ( Pilot targeting aircraft ) it use as a mobile target for SAM ( Surface to Air missle ) and for Pilots to shoot them down in simulated training exercises ..
Where UAV is used for reconnaissance and way expensive than to PTAs..

Presently India operating Israeli UAVS and Indian UAVs but No UCAVs though India have a project called AURA for UCAV which will be operational in next 20-30 years..

http://livefist.blogspot.com/


In between 2010-30 Army do required CAS aircraft with PGM strike capability..

 

[jackprince]

If I may intrude upon the discussion, I would like to ask a few questions about the proposed UCAV's in CAS role.

Does India has a very good array of satellites through which the UCAV's must be controlled, since radio wave frequency wouldn't be fast enough to control the craft in real-time? Some people would say, wake up! India is already in the way of getting that, don't you know?!!!!! But will those satellites be safe from the anti-satellite missiles that are being developed worldwide? It probably could also be controlled from a AWACS or specifically dedicated aircraft for the task, instead of relying on satellites. But I suppose that wouldn't be worth it.

How would those UCAV's fare under a strong jamming system, which is very likely to emerge soon to counter the UCAVs? If a jamming gets successful, the UCAV prbably would stick to its preliminary programming. But how would depend on a system which is going to bomb or destroy a position depending on a hours old programming in a ever changing scenario of battlefield?

And, I would like to insert another question withing my ramble, that is, does US really use drones for CAS role? I never heard so. So far I know it uses for target specific bombing mission. As far I new Warthog or Apache was used for CAS role. Close Air Support role means to bomb or straff the enemy who is very close to the friendlies. A remote controlled UCAV is bound to have a minute delay in real-time information to reach and then the reaction of the operator be executed properly. I don't think if were the friendly, I would like the UCAV to come and help me - I would rather a Jaguar or Mig-27 with less tech but dependable arsenal to come.

((This may sound a little bit preposterous. Well, it probably is preposterous. How could you block all satellite links? Communication - super-fast communication is the name of the game in today's modern warfare community - just like the US use it. But why do we always forget the greatest strength may very well be turned into be greatest weakness? Like the AWACS killer programme of Russians - Novator K-100. What if this programme really becomes successful and in a air-fight suddenly US looses its AWACS? Everybody in other thread were thumping on each others back saying the killing the AWACS would ruin the fight for a airforce which had already become too used to it for peripheral awareness.))

Also, since the topic seems to be about near future, my next question is, can India economically afford UCAV? I rather doubt it. When we are in a strong economical position now, we need to spend more resource into developing the infrastructure instead going for a system we can do without.

UCAV may be used by IAF for target specific hunting mission or if tech evolves enough for area suppressing mission. Army's need should be only CAS aircrafts which I don't think UCAV is suitable for at all.

 

[jackprince]

please delete it. Double post.

 

[Yusuf]

Every system has its own importance. The US is not totally dependent on UCAVs for CAS.

UCAVs are still restricted by the payload capacity and also intelligence of a pilot who has more situational awareness.

Let me think of an example. What would you prefer in a Longewala type of situation? UCAVs or A-10s?

At the moment UCAVs are more of force multipliers than the force itself. It also is a good weapon against terrorists who have to be sought and killed in the mountains by loitering forever till it picks something, something that a fixed winger is not expected to do,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A-10 or Su-25 r deadly in CAS role..

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Alright, I agree that UCAV`s are currently not fit for CAS and India should not waste money and time on any UCAV project. But then inducting separate fighters for army aviation means a whole new setup.

Initially a proposal for it, then a discussion and then approval for that project(time spent= almost half a year). Then searching for a plane manufacturer organisation and finally signing a deal(time taken=1 year). New bases, entirely new training grounds for cadets, new command posts, recruitment of pilots, their training and expenditure(time taken= almost 2-3 years). After that, waiting for the delivery of jets to be completed and this new core is active.(time taken=again almost 3 years). That means that if even army plans to induct multirole fighters into army aviation core then it will not be accomplished before 2015.

I knew that this is not a very poor duration for India but as far as I know that currently India`s CAS needs can be accomplished by the almost completed LCH project. And as far as the war is concerned then India will not be entering into any kind of war in the near future since no economy of the world is in that position to afford a war.

 

[Armand2REP]

If India needs a dedicated CAS fighter there is an easy alternative. Buy advanced jet trainers that carry weapons, Yak-130 would make a fine CAS aircraft.

 

[civfanatic]

If India needs a dedicated CAS fighter there is an easy alternative. Buy advanced jet trainers that carry weapons, Yak-130 would make a fine CAS aircraft.

I think the BAE Hawk used by the IAF would also do fine in this role, but doesn't India rely on MiG-27s and Jaguars for close air support?

 

[Armand2REP]

I think the BAE Hawk used by the IAF would also do fine in this role, but doesn't India rely on MiG-27s and Jaguars for close air support?

MiG-27s and Jaguars will be retired soon, something needs to replace it and it should not be fast movers for CAS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MiG-27s and Jaguars will be retired soon, something needs to replace it and it should not be fast movers for CAS.

I was taking abt Army avation, where we can have minimum 3 squadrons of CAS aircrafts..

If India needs a dedicated CAS fighter there is an easy alternative. Buy advanced jet trainers that carry weapons, Yak-130 would make a fine CAS aircraft.

Why go for Yak-130, its expensive compare to dedicated CAS Su-25 also Su-25 have many advantages to yak-130..
Also if MOD denied the purchase of SU-25 then i would love to see lovely tucanos in Army Aviation..

SU-25

Tucanos,
4 underwing pylons, total capacity 1,000 kg (2,200 lb)

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/1332-Should-the-Army-have-its-own-Air-Wing/page15

 

[Yusuf]

If there was whiff of india thinking of dedicated CAS, you would see the US outside MoD waiting to present the A-10. And it could come by FMS. Would be in indian forces in no time.

 

[Agantrope]

I was taking abt Army avation, where we can have minimum 3 squadrons of CAS aircrafts..


Why go for Yak-130, its expensive compare to dedicated CAS Su-25 also Su-25 have many advantages to yak-130..
Also if MOD denied the purchase of SU-25 then i would love to see lovely tucanos in Army Aviation..

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/1332-Should-the-Army-have-its-own-Air-Wing/page15

Army doesnt have the CAS for years and why the hell all the flying machine has been given to the IAF and not a few to the IA.

Kunal sir, can you give me the current number of the Dhruv that are present with IA.

IMO, IA doesnt need Thunderbolt or anything like that, Dhruv, Mi-28/Apache longggg bow, LCH will be fine enough; IAF birds can be called in for support for anti-tank warfare, which will be a largest in the world.

No direct landlock fight will happen in South Asia for sure

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Army doesnt have the CAS for years and why the hell all the flying machine has been given to the IAF and not a few to the IA.

Few MI-25/35 are with IAF, Army denied to have them coz of their small no and extensive maintenance...

Kunal sir, can you give me the current number of the Dhruv that are present with IA.

I dont know but i do know that we still use old cheetah and chetaks in large no..

IA doesnt need Thunderbolt or anything like that, Dhruv, Mi-28/Apache longggg bow, LCH will be fine enough

LCH is good but during Kargil both IA and IAF felt the need for IA dedicated CAS aircrafts..
these topic is discussed in previous pages..

IAF birds can be called in for support for anti-tank warfare, which will be a largest in the world.

Indeed they are always there..

If there was whiff of india thinking of dedicated CAS, you would see the US outside MoD waiting to present the A-10. And it could come by FMS. Would be in indian forces in no time.

I hope to see that....

 

[Armand2REP]

No one makes the A-10 anymore, the Su-25 is also not produced now that Georgia's factory is bombed. Russia wants to restart production but is years away. Using an advanced jet trainer kills two birds with one stone without expanding the logistics trail that comes with multiple aircraft types. Super Tacano doesn't carry much stores, short ranged, low protection and relies on US engines. Really the best option is using the AJTs.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No one makes the A-10 anymore, the Su-25 is also not produced now that Georgia's factory is bombed. Russia wants to restart production but is years away. Using an advanced jet trainer kills two birds with one stone without expanding the logistics trail that comes with multiple aircraft types. Super Tacano doesn't carry much stores, short ranged, low protection and relies on US engines. Really the best option is using the AJTs.

@Armand2REP,

1. Russia still have working facility at the Ulan-Ude aircraft plant...
2. I mentioned SuperTucano as the last option...

But your idea of using AJT for PGM and CAS role reminded me abt HAL HJT-36, We can use this also its cheap and some of them are in active service within IAF..
Still Its not dedicated as SU-25 but for PGM & CAS role it can be used, Good Idea!

* Crew: two, student and instructor
* Length: 11.00 m (36 ft 1 in)
* Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
* Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 5 in)
* Max takeoff weight: 4,600 kg (10,000 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Snecma Larzac or Al-55I turbofan, 14.1 kN or 17kN (3,170 lbf or 4,500 lbf)

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 0.80 (850 km/h, 540 mph)
* Service ceiling: 9,000 m (29,520 ft)
* Endurance: 3 hours
* Maximum Dive Speed: 950 km/h
* Maximum Load Factor: +7.0/-2.5 g

Armament

* 5 X hardpoints with up to 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) of a variety of guns, bombs, rockets, and missiles
* 1 × 23 mm cannon (optional)

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Current streangth of the Army Aviation Corps:-

The Army Aviation Corps currently has the strength of 460+ pilot officers with an annual intake of 40-45 pilots.The Indian Army operates more than 500+ helicopters, plus additional unmanned aerial vehicles.

Inventary of the Army Aviation Corps:-

1. HAL Dhruv= 40+ (To acquire 150+ more Dhruv in next 5 years.)
2. HAL Chetak / Aérospatiale SA 316 Alouette III= 85+ (to be replaced by a light utility helicopter yet to be finalised)
3. HAL Cheetah / Aérospatiale SA 315 Lama= 66+ (to be replaced by a light utility helicopter yet to be finalised)
4. DRDO Nishant = 18 (Delivered 12 UAV's in 2008.)
5. IAI Searcher II = 50+
6. IAI Heron II= 100+
Rustom , LCH yet to come.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Aviation_Corps_(India)#Strength