Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[F-14B]

so the Million dollar question is wather the IAF is going to buy the Viper

 

[Filtercoffee]

#Breaking #Tata & #LockheedMartin sign agreement on setting up F-16 Block 70 production line in India. View attachment 16877

Should have a parellel F - 35 production line also.

 

[kunal1123]

idrw.org
Lockheed Martin signs pact with Tata to make F-16 planes in India
3 minutes
SOURCE: TNN

Lockheed Martin signed an agreement with India’s Tata Advanced Systems on Monday to produce F-16 fighter planes in India, pressing ahead with a plan to shift its Fort Worth, Texas plant to win billions of dollars worth of order from the Indian military.

India’s Air Force needs hundreds of aircraft to replace its Soviet-era fleet, but Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government has said foreign suppliers would have to make the planes in India with a local partner to help build a domestic industrial base and cut outright imports.However, PM Modi’s Make-in-India drive runs the risk of conflicting with US President Donald Trump’s America First campaign under which he has been pressing for companies to invest in the United States and create jobs instead of setting up factories abroad.

In announcing their agreement at the Paris Airshow, Lockheed and Tata said moving the production base to India would still retain jobs in the United States.

“F-16 production in India supports thousands of Lockheed Martin and F-16 supplier jobs in the US, creates new manufacturing jobs in India, and positions Indian industry at the centre of the most extensive fighter aircraft supply ecosystem in the world,” a joint statement by the firms said.

Sweden’s Saab is the other contender to supply the Indian Air Force, offering to make its Gripen fighter in India. It has not yet announced a local partner for the plane which it has pitched as a modern alternative to the F-16s.

The announcement comes days before PM Modi travels to Washington for a first meeting with Donald Trump, scheduled for June 26. India and the United States have built a close defence relationship in recent years with Washington emerging as among the top three arms suppliers to India, along with Russia and Israel.

India will also have the chance to export the F-16 that is flown by air forces around the world, the joint statement said. Some 3,200 of these planes are being flown by 26 countries and the model that is being offered to India will be Block 70, the most modern of all the F-16s.”This unprecedented F-16 production partnership between the world’s largest defense contractor and India’s premier industrial house provides India the opportunity to produce, operate and export F-16 Block 70 aircraft, the newest and most advanced version of the world’s most successful, combat-proven multi-role fighter,” the statement said.

Tata is already building airframe components for the C-130 military transport aircraft.India has not opened formal bidding for the jet order, which is expected to be anything from 100 planes to 250.

 

[kunal1123]

here is simple question
the single engine fighter competition is started due to promises of engine so what about that........???????????????,

 

[Vijyes]

They getting too cheeky and doing it on their own to force themselves upon India. India is unlikely to buy F16. They have just set up an assembly line in India and haven't received any orders. Modi will not budge that easily unless they handover all their software codes (to avoid chances for USA hacking into them during war) and ToT for key components so as to have high utility ratio.
The first strike of any country is missile strikes and not fighter jet bombings. Missiles are quick, can be fired in thousands in a few minutes and obliterate the enemy missile silos, storage, airports, air defences and make way for further bombings by fighter aircrafts. So, one need not actually be bothered about having the greatest of the great fighter jets.
Also, why would India spend money of foreign imports instead of buying Indian planes? In war it is more important to win than have some high fancy stuff. If it takes 5 Tejas indegenously made instead of 1 F16, so be it. India has huge population. Just to save a few hundred pilot lives, we can't afford to lose the lives of million others. In case of war, if India has indigenous engine, India can make thousands of Tejas planes by conscripting people from other fields like automobile. F16 on the other hand must be bought using dollars only which may not be available during war.
Russian or American, import is always an import and will cause logistical problems during war. Full scale war will need 2000-3000 fighter jets, 2000-3000 helicopters, 1lakh missiles, 5000 nukes etc. No one can import such things. Only a fool will import 100 planes and pat his own back for having cutting edge technology. Reality is that no plane is 10 times better than another rival plane. Even F35 is not capable of fighting with 10 Tejas aircrafts. It is better to make 10 Tejas instead of buying 1 F35. Indians can be asked to volunteer for war in case of necessity. A country is not a market. In case of a genuine war, people will be willing to work overtime for free. But foreign nation won't give free planes.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Horrible horrible horrible. What I don't understand is why HAL cannot create this same type of production agreement with an Indian company? The question always arises of "Oh but the cost is too high" or something ridiculous. Well, the fact remains that indigenous production of an indigenous jet will help reduce cost by over time creating a more efficient plant. This does not even include the cost reduction of not having to pay a foreign firm for technology.

 

[Vijyes]

Horrible horrible horrible. What I don't understand is why HAL cannot create this same type of production agreement with an Indian company? The question always arises of "Oh but the cost is too high" or something ridiculous. Well, the fact remains that indigenous production of an indigenous jet will help reduce cost by over time creating a more efficient plant. This does not even include the cost reduction of not having to pay a foreign firm for technology.

Indigenous manufacturing can be technically done for free by requesting people to volunteer in case of war. That is not the case with imports. You are right in saying that indigenous technology is important but it is equally important to understand that this might just be a gimmicks from F16.

Read my comment above and you will understand.

 

[Brood Father]

They getting too cheeky and doing it on their own to force themselves upon India. India is unlikely to buy F16. They have just set up an assembly line in India and haven't received any orders. Modi will not budge that easily unless they handover all their software codes (to avoid chances for USA hacking into them during war) and ToT for key components so as to have high utility ratio.
The first strike of any country is missile strikes and not fighter jet bombings. Missiles are quick, can be fired in thousands in a few minutes and obliterate the enemy missile silos, storage, airports, air defences and make way for further bombings by fighter aircrafts. So, one need not actually be bothered about having the greatest of the great fighter jets.
Also, why would India spend money of foreign imports instead of buying Indian planes? In war it is more important to win than have some high fancy stuff. If it takes 5 Tejas indegenously made instead of 1 F16, so be it. India has huge population. Just to save a few hundred pilot lives, we can't afford to lose the lives of million others. In case of war, if India has indigenous engine, India can make thousands of Tejas planes by conscripting people from other fields like automobile. F16 on the other hand must be bought using dollars only which may not be available during war.
Russian or American, import is always an import and will cause logistical problems during war. Full scale war will need 2000-3000 fighter jets, 2000-3000 helicopters, 1lakh missiles, 5000 nukes etc. No one can import such things. Only a fool will import 100 planes and pat his own back for having cutting edge technology. Reality is that no plane is 10 times better than another rival plane. Even F35 is not capable of fighting with 10 Tejas aircrafts. It s better to make 10 Tejas instead of buying 1 F35. Indians can be asked to volunteer for war in case of necessity. A country is not a market. In case of a genuine war, people will be willing to work overtime for free. But foreign nation won't give free planes.

I am always in support of indigenous tech rather than state of art tech
In world war 2 Russia had pretty standard piece of armory and technology yet they overwhelmed tech superior Germans because of the quantity of those standard weapons..

 

[TheHurtLocker]

In world war 2 Russia had pretty standard piece of armory and technology yet they overwhelmed tech superior Germans because of the quantity of those standard weapons..

Half truth.
The fact is that the Nazi assault was ill prepared for the Soviet Winter and Imperial Japan failed to exert pressure on the East, thereby freeing Winter warriors to be redeployed on the front.
The Red Army was better equipped (for the brutal winter) and had decisive leadership.

 

[SanjeevM]

I favor F-16 manufacturing pact with TATA. It will bring a level of automation even in the assembly line. HAL/ADA need to adopt that automation in assembling Tejas. We learn from everything. I believe there will be lessons to learn once TATA starts manufacturing F-16.

TATA can take a call and slowly manufacture more parts for F-16. If we are considering 2 front war, we need numbers. Even if you increase Tejas production lines 4-8, you need many years to reach 400. Consider that as soon TATA gains experience in assembly, they can simultaneously have automated production lines for Tejas. TATA is private sector. They can manufacture/assemble multiple fighters. It's like TATA is making indica cars as well as nano. Move the production lines from HAL to TATA.

 

[Vijyes]

I favor F-16 manufacturing pact with TATA. It will bring a level of automation even in the assembly line. HAL/ADA need to adopt that automation in assembling Tejas. We learn from everything. I believe there will be lessons to learn once TATA starts manufacturing F-16.

TATA can take a call and slowly manufacture more parts for F-16. If we are considering 2 front war, we need numbers. Even if you increase Tejas production lines 4-8, you need many years to reach 400. Consider that as soon TATA gains experience in assembly, they can simultaneously have automated production lines for Tejas. TATA is private sector. They can manufacture/assemble multiple fighters. It's like TATA is making indica carstas well as nano. Move the production lines from HAL to TATA.

From where did you learn that India doesn't know assembly line techniques? Hasn't HAL repeatedly told that they need more orders for rapid manufacturing? 114 Tejas till 2023 is too less to have large assembly lines. What should the employees do once the order is finished? Employees need to be paid regular salary too.

Just saying that one should pay billions for assembly lines is the most illogical thing I have ever heard. Have you received any payment to write such things?

 

[Vijyes]

Half truth.
The fact is that the Nazi assault was ill prepared for the Soviet Winter and Imperial Japan failed to exert pressure on the East, thereby freeing Winter warriors to be redeployed on the front.
The Red Army was better equipped (for the brutal winter) and had decisive leadership.

The red army lost 2.7 crore people out of its population of 17 crore. That was the assault style of soviets. Soviets were not better equipped and that is why they lost so many men. But, it was the cheap and mass manufactured items that made them win due to sheer numbers.

 

[airtel]

From where did you learn that India doesn't know assembly line techniques? Hasn't HAL repeatedly told that they need more orders for rapid manufacturing? 114 Tejas till 2023 is too less to have large assembly lines. What should the employees do once the order is finished? Employees need to be paid regular salary too.

Just saying that one should pay billions for assembly lines is the most illogical thing I have ever heard. Have you received any payment to write such things?

SAURAV JHA Said that main purpose of this deal is to Get a Modern Production Line .

 

[Vijyes]

SAURAV JHA Said that main purpose of this deal is to Get a Modern Production Line .

A modern production line at the cost of 6-8 billion dollars? Is India that stupid to not make another jugaad alternative for half the cost? Is assembly line some kind of state of the art technology? Don't you think that logic is ridiculous

I opine that the number of F16 ordered should be such that the cost of the F16 ordered should be similar to the Forex earned by F16 assembly lines in India by paying Indian workers for exporting to foreign nations like Turkey, UAE etc which are using these planes. The amount of dollars spent on Indian items should be compensated by the government by ordering F16 planes.

For example, if F16 brings in Forex of 2 billion USD to India after repatriation back to its parent country (USA), then India should order about 3 billion dollars worth of F16 (along with long term maintenance contracts) so as to help generate Indian jobs without losing much Forex. Forex is more important than rupee as Rupee can be printed by the government and also by raising taxation to generate more revenue. But forex can't be obtained just like that.

So, unless F16 either transfers full technology or generates other export revenue to India, it is highly unwise. Saurav Jha may say anything and everything. As long as a person is not speaking logically by giving proper parameters and reasoning to justify, I wouldn't believe him.

 

[Pulkit]

From where did you learn that India doesn't know assembly line techniques? Hasn't HAL repeatedly told that they need more orders for rapid manufacturing? 114 Tejas till 2023 is too less to have large assembly lines. What should the employees do once the order is finished? Employees need to be paid regular salary too.

Just saying that one should pay billions for assembly lines is the most illogical thing I have ever heard. Have you received any payment to write such things?

Just emphasizing on "114 Tejas till 2023" Do you think these timelines will be met ?
If yes plz explain. I think we are gonna have them between 2025-2027.

The HAL version of Tejas will be ready by 2019-2020 testing and all lets say 2021 it will enter production even then if they produce 16 per years from the first year it will take them at least 5 years to produce the numbers ordered.

Please do correct me if anything mentioned is incorrect.

 

[airtel]

A modern production line at the cost of 6-8 billion dollars? Is India that stupid to not make another jugaad alternative for half the cost? Is assembly line some kind of state of the art technology? Don't you think that logic is ridiculous

I opine that the number of F16 ordered should be such that the cost of the F16 ordered should be similar to the Forex earned by F16 assembly lines in India by paying Indian workers for exporting to foreign nations like Turkey, UAE etc which are using these planes. The amount of dollars spent on Indian items should be compensated by the government by ordering F16 planes.

For example, if F16 brings in Forex of 2 billion USD to India after repatriation back to its parent country (USA), then India should order about 3 billion dollars worth of F16 (along with long term maintenance contracts) so as to help generate Indian jobs without losing much Forex. Forex is more important than rupee as Rupee can be printed by the government and also by raising taxation to generate more revenue. But forex can't be obtained just like that.

So, unless F16 either transfers full technology or generates other export revenue to India, it is highly unwise. Saurav Jha may say anything and everything. As long as a person is not speaking logically by giving proper parameters and reasoning to justify, I wouldn't believe him.

so what are the other options for India ??

Tejas with foreign AESA , Foreign Engine , foreign EW suites (with No TOT )??

and Much less weapon carrying capacity & Endurance than F-16 ?

If Indians expect Full TOT of Block -70 F-16 in <10 Billion $ then we are delusional .

 

[Vijyes]

Just emphasizing on "114 Tejas till 2023" Do you think these timelines will be met ?
If yes plz explain. I think we are gonna have them between 2025-2027.

The HAL version of Tejas will be ready by 2019-2020 testing and all lets say 2021 it will enter production even then if they produce 16 per years from the first year it will take them at least 5 years to produce the numbers ordered.

Please do correct me if anything mentioned is incorrect.

We are already producing 6 Tejas a year and will be ramped up to 16 a year. HAL is not ramping up production as it is not receiving orders. Tejas Mk1A is not a very potent plane. We need Mk2 which will be bigger and have more capacity like AESA radars etc. Once, the best possible version of Tejas is out, production can even go as high as 100 per year if there is a major requirement in a short span of time.

As of now, it stands that Tejas Mk2 will be ready by 2023 and with flight tests, by 2024-25. AMCA is set for 2025-26 with flight test for 2027-29. Tejas Mk2 is being delayed for diverting the resources to AMCA. So, this 114 Mk1A has to be in production till Mk2 is produced as the employees will need to have continuous job. One can't just hire contract workers for production and fire them every now and then. So, till Mk2 is ordered, HAL has to extend the production lines accordingly to accommodate its employees. It is not a matter of poor assembly line but necessity for continuity of employment

 

[Vijyes]

so what are the other options for India ??

Tejas with foreign AESA , Foreign Engine , foreign EW suites (with No TOT )??

and Much less weapon carrying capacity & Endurance than F-16 ?

If Indians expect Full TOT of Block -70 F-16 in <10 Billion $ then we are delusional .

Tejas has no AESA and Indian EW suites. Only engine is imported.

UTTAM AESA has been developed with 20km range but a need for high powered GaN (Gallium Nitride) AESA has resulted in phase 2 development of UTTAM in possible collaboration with Israel. The problem with AESA in Tejas Mk1A is that there is not enough space for it to fit in. So, only Mk2 will be fitted with AESA. Mk1 is only a test bed for AESA but can't be used in war as AESA will require many other critical equipment from being replaced

The problem with EW suite for Tejas Mk1A is that it is too small and the size of Tejas has to increase to fit it in. At present EW suite can only come in a pod which is pretty bad but is never the less indigenous. It is because of this limitations, HAL wants to import EW suite to fit in Mk1A! I don't think anyone can offer such an EW suite that can fit in such a small aircraft which is already fully packed

There is nothing special about F16 except for AESA and engine over Tejas. So, F16 only has to give ToT for either engine or AESA.

F16 has higher carrying capacity as it is a bigger plane. But, it serves no purpose as 2 Tejas can be used in its place. It will take similar efforts except for requirement of 2 pilots. Tejas is the ideal single engine fighter jet with ferry range of 1700km against F16's 2400km, low RCS to hide from air defence. F16 weighs about 1.5-1.6 times Tejas Mk2 is expected to weigh when fully loaded and naturally will cost more to produce too


PS: Most important requirement in war is to be able to produce war machines in thousands of numbers by recruiting the civilian population across different fields. Having 200 imported aircrafts is] as good as being unarmed in a no holds barred war. The best example is world w2 where thousands of tanks were made

 

[square]

so what are the other options for India ??

Tejas with foreign AESA , Foreign Engine , foreign EW suites (with No TOT )??

and Much less weapon carrying capacity & Endurance than F-16 ?

If Indians expect Full TOT of Block -70 F-16 in <10 Billion $ then we are delusional .

inplace of two jv ( single engine and twin engine ) it would be better we have only one under make in india.....thats rafale...

rest of the numbers can be filled with lca....

but its seem f16 is more of a political deal , already done......

 

[Vijyes]

inplace of two jv ( single engine and twin engine ) it would be better we have only one under make in india.....thats rafale...

rest of the numbers can be filled with lca....

but its seem f16 is more of a political deal , already done......

What is the basis on which you are claiming F16 deal is already done? Any source?