India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Does Pakistan have MIRV capable missile? Shaheen, Ababeel?

 

[mcpo117]

Pakistani neutralised

Munni ko ghar chhod kar aa rha hoga bechara!

 

[nongaddarliberal]

So the US + KSA + UAE are putting together a massive aid plan to bail out Egypt & kick start its economy & Paxtanis - the pure ones from the land of the pure on Twitter are wondering what wrong have they committed for biradar mumaalik to ignore them in such a manner.

It is actually the Egyptian armed forces that are tasked with protecting the gulf states in case of a FUBAR situation, the task paki netizens thought their country has. Where do you think the Egyptians got the money for 1500 Abrams, 200+ F16s, 24 rafales and a mistral LHD?

 

[Blademaster]

It is actually the Egyptian armed forces that are tasked with protecting the gulf states in case of a FUBAR situation, the task paki netizens thought their country has. Where do you think the Egyptians got the money for 1500 Abrams, 200+ F16s, 24 rafales and a mistral LHD?

They got the money from the Americans to purchase American weapons as part of the peace deal with Israel reached back in the late 70s.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

They got the money from the Americans to purchase American weapons as part of the peace deal with Israel reached back in the late 70s.

Most of the expenses are being borne by the Gulf countries except Qatar, apart from US aid.

 

[Jimih]

PM will be in Pokhran today

#exBharatShakti

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

PM will be in Pokhran today

#exBharatShakti

Nothing. Just learning military dictatorship by Modiji.

 

[Tridev123]

PM will be in Pokhran today

#exBharatShakti

Since this is the season for mega announcements especially defence related ones.

Why not conduct an true,unambiguous Thermonuclear Bomb test in Pokhran of yield minimum 1 Megaton.

This single test will ensure that the BJP gets a third term at the center.

I try to avoid bringing politics into discussions on this forum.
I am certainly not canvassing for the BJP or Prime Minister Modi.
But only hoping that since a technically proven Hydrogen Bomb capability is important for India to establish deterrence credibility.

If somebody wants to win votes by detonating an 1 megaton Thermonuclear Bomb no problem.
Because India gains.

But, but --- undoubtedly the United States is the elephant in the room.
Its likely reaction will greatly influence the decision to test or not to test.

 

[pankaj nema]

 

[Indrajit]

Worth a watch.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

Does Pakistan have MIRV capable missile? Shaheen, Ababeel?

Ababeel is MIRV capable

 

[karn]

Since this is the season for mega announcements especially defence related ones.

Why not conduct an true,unambiguous Thermonuclear Bomb test in Pokhran of yield minimum 1 Megaton.

This single test will ensure that the BJP gets a third term at the center.

I try to avoid bringing politics into discussions on this forum.
I am certainly not canvassing for the BJP or Prime Minister Modi.
But only hoping that since a technically proven Hydrogen Bomb capability is important for India to establish deterrence credibility.

If somebody wants to win votes by detonating an 1 megaton Thermonuclear Bomb no problem.
Because India gains.

But, but --- undoubtedly the United States is the elephant in the room.
Its likely reaction will greatly influence the decision to test or not to test.

There is a 0 % chance of a 1megaton bomb being tested on land .

 

[Tridev123]

There is a 0 % chance of a 1megaton bomb being tested on land .
View attachment 244181

Probably you can elaborate for the benefit of other members.
I believe all the Chinese Megaton strength hydrogen bombs were tested at the Lop Nor facility on land.
Similarly the USSR carried out most of its nuclear tests including the Tsar Bamba(yield 20 megatons) on land.
So ???.
Will a 1 megaton underground test at Pokhran trigger an devastating earthquake.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Probably you can elaborate for the benefit of other members.
I believe all the Chinese Megaton strength hydrogen bombs were tested at the Lop Nor facility on land.
Similarly the USSR carried out most of its nuclear tests including the Tsar Bamba(yield 20 megatons) on land.
So ???.
Will a 1 megaton underground test at Pokhran trigger an devastating earthquake.

These were all air tests, meaning the bomb was denotated in the atmosphere, before ground contact. Underground tests are highly unpredictable once they go beyond the 100 kiloton range, mostly because our understanding of the consequences ( will the rock structure liquify ? will it fragment like glass ? will it ripple like a wave ? etc) are limited.

 

[Tridev123]

These were all air tests, meaning the bomb was denotated in the atmosphere, before ground contact. Underground tests are highly unpredictable once they go beyond the 100 kiloton range, mostly because our understanding of the consequences ( will the rock structure liquify ? will it fragment like glass ? will it ripple like a wave ? etc) are limited.

Why do countries carry out underground nuclear tests.
Mainly to contain any harmful radiation.

Now if an underground nuclear test is not advisable then carry out an above ground test after evacuating the nearby population and after handsomely compensaing the villagers.

Now if again you have an objection then please openly state that you don't want India to test again. The Chinese and the Americans will be very happy.

You really need to be put in charge of the Chinese border and use your expertise to evict them from our land.

God man, the Soviets/Russians had the guts to test an 20 megaton super hydrogen bomb. An above ground test.

And we are scared shit to even test an 1 megaton bomb. All sorts of objections and excuses given to dissuade us.

 

[Azaad]

Why do countries carry out underground nuclear tests.
Mainly to contain any harmful radiation.

Now if an underground nuclear test is not advisable then carry out an above ground test after evacuating the nearby population and after handsomely compensaing the villagers.

Now if again you have an objection then please openly state that you don't want India to test again. The Chinese and the Americans will be very happy.

You really need to be put in charge of the Chinese border and use your expertise to evict them from our land.

God man, the Soviets/Russians had the guts to test an 20 megaton super hydrogen bomb. An above ground test.

And we are scared shit to even test an 1 megaton bomb. All sorts of objections and excuses given to dissuade us.

You're actually comparing the land mass of the largest country in the world & one extremely sparsely populated especially in Siberia where those tests occurred to the most populous & densely populated one at that on earth. Ditto for China vis a vis Xinjiang or even Tibet both in terms of population & its density

There's a strong likelihood of a 1 MT hydrogen bomb triggering off an earthquake if tested underground & if it's an air blast the contamination thru N radiation would be unimaginable not restricted to our side of the border

Already we've plenty of reports of cancer due to radiation in and around Pokhran in spite of us carrying out all of 6 N tests in the past 50 years out there

 

[Tridev123]

You're actually comparing the land mass of the largest country in the world & one extremely sparsely populated especially in Siberia where those tests occurred to the most populous & densely populated one at that on earth. Ditto for China vis a vis Xinjiang or even Tibet both in terms of population & its density

There's a strong likelihood of a 1 MT hydrogen bomb triggering off an eartWe hquake if tested underground & if it's an air blast the contamination thru N radiation would be unimaginable not restricted to our side of the border

Already we've plenty of reports of cancer due to radiation in and around Pokhran in spite of us carrying out all of 6 N tests in the past 50 years out there

There will always be excuses.
We Indians are scared of everything.

Let's not do scare mongering.Most of the radiation which follows a nuclear bomb test is relatively short lived.Only a few of the radioactive elements formed have a long half life.

It is not beyond the capability of our scientists to design an bomb which minimizes harmful radiation.

India is the 7th largest nation in the world in terms of land area.There are dozens of countries much much smaller than us.

So should we wait till we reach the size of Russia or China.

I have to give it to the Pakistanis.They would never have said that their country is too small to conduct an nuclear bomb test.

Anyway if you believe in the leftist ideology and hold an anti bomb opinion you are free to hold it.

I don't agree with you. I am sure that many people in India support renewed testing. At least a few megaton thermonuclear bomb tests to establish the credibility of our nuclear arsenal.

Not advocating a hundred nuclear tests similar to what was done by the big powers

You don't want it,fine.
You have the right to your stand.

But I have a different view.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

There will always be excuses.
We Indians are scared of everything.

Let's not do scare mongering.Most of the radiation which follows a nuclear bomb test is relatively short lived.Only a few of the radioactive elements formed have a long half life.

It is not beyond the capability of our scientists to design an bomb which minimizes harmful radiation.

India is the 7th largest nation in the world in terms of land area.There are dozens of countries much much smaller than us.

So should we wait till we reach the size of Russia or China.

I have to give it to the Pakistanis.They would never have said that their country is too small to conduct an nuclear bomb test.

Anyway if you believe in the leftist ideology and hold an anti bomb opinion you are free to hold it.

I don't agree with you. I am sure that many people in India support renewed testing. At least a few megaton thermonuclear bomb tests to establish the credibility of our nuclear arsenal.

Not advocating a hundred nuclear tests similar to what was done by the big powers

You don't want it,fine.
You have the right to your stand.

But I have a different view.

I dont agree with your line of reasoning, on many points

0) THE BIGGEST POINT - Rest all are just additional supporting arguments. Nuclear tests will come with widespread sanctions whether you like it or not. Doing this in the golden period of economic growth is asinine, especially when no other nuclear power does explosions now, let alone megaton ones.

1) Nuclear radiation effects are not avoidable. The idea that some genius scientist can devise a non radioactive nuclear bomb is wrong. Any overground test will have very long term effects that cannot be trivialised

2) Opposing nuclear tests based on practicalities is neither "Leftist" nor "anti-bomb" - In fact, most of the testing needed can be (and is) performed using subcritical tests and computer simulations.

3) The obsession with megaton tests is pointless. Realistically, with existing designs, any warhead above 500-600kT is anyway overkill, as at that point it becomes much more efficient to have a cluster of warheads and delivery platforms instead of one giant bomb.

4) Yes, the pakistanis would never say that. They would never bother to use their brain and think of the consequences, and would happily "eat grass", which today is not much of a hyperbole from their actual situation that they are in precisely due to their lack of foresight.

 

[Tridev123]

I dont agree with your line of reasoning, on many points

0) THE BIGGEST POINT - Rest all are just additional supporting arguments. Nuclear tests will come with widespread sanctions whether you like it or not. Doing this in the golden period of economic growth is asinine, especially when no other nuclear power does explosions now, let alone megaton ones.

1) Nuclear radiation effects are not avoidable. The idea that some genius scientist can devise a non radioactive nuclear bomb is wrong. Any overground test will have very long term effects that cannot be trivialised

2) Opposing nuclear tests based on practicalities is neither "Leftist" nor "anti-bomb" - In fact, most of the testing needed can be (and is) performed using subcritical tests and computer simulations.

3) The obsession with megaton tests is pointless. Realistically, with existing designs, any warhead above 500-600kT is anyway overkill, as at that point it becomes much more efficient to have a cluster of warheads and delivery platforms instead of one giant bomb.

4) Yes, the pakistanis would never say that. They would never bother to use their brain and think of the consequences, and would happily "eat grass", which today is not much of a hyperbole from their actual situation that they are in precisely due to their lack of foresight.

Let's be clear.
If at this point in time
The present geopolitical and economic situation does not allow us to conduct new nuclear its perfectly understandable. No arguments about it.

But let's not parrot the American intelligentsia line.
Where did the arguments about the dangerous radiation hazard created by nuclear bomb testing disappear when the Americans and the Russians and the Chinese were conducting hundreds of nuclear tests including megaton level tests.

Have we conducted even an 200 kt or 500kt thermonuclear bomb test.
Many people are sceptical as to whether we can successfully design an true hydrogen bomb. I am not saying that we need only 1 megaton warheads for our ICBM's. Demonstrate an megaton level capability and then scale it down as per the requirement.

Why this phobia and fear about a 1 megaton test.
When the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese tested megaton bombs it was necessary but when India considers it all hell breaks loose.

Do these arguments arise only when countries like India test.
Is it not double standards.

I am reminded of the information warfare conducted by the Americans to prevent India from going ahead with the 3 stage nuclear power programme as originally envisioned by the late nuclear scientist Homi Bhabha. Making use of our vast thorium reserves.

Anyway no more arguments.
Let the people of India decide.

I am closing the debate on this topic from my side.
If you want to continue??.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Is it not double standards.

I am closing the debate on this topic from my side.
If you want to continue??.

I will also end with a comment where I think you may agree somewhat.

Yes. Yes, it is a double standard.

But IMO, there is no need to be a moral warrior. We need to balance our strategic needs with military necessity. Unless there is absolute necessity, we should not do anything that can ruin our long-term developmental and military strategy. But if we reach a point where we are militarily and economically powerful enough to disregard these countries, and if some necessary military need arises, then yes, we can and should validate our nuclear capabilities.