India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[LurkerBaba]

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[KS]

48 to 49...no wonder its taking so much time.

 

[ace009]

Just read about the $30 Billion fighter aircraft contract to Saudi Arabia - I guess the MMRCA deal has just been eclipsed. USA is selling the F-15s to RSAF

US to sell F-15 jets to Saudi Arabia for $30 bn - The Economic Times

 

[Bhartiya]

Isn't F-15 obsolete now?? ... plus quality and not price is what matters....

 

[The Messiah]

^daylight robbery

 

[Tomcat]

the saudis will get the F-15S The F-15SA aircraft, upgrade of its F-15S fleet to F-15SA standard, and related equipment and weapons through a Foreign Military Sale in October 2010.[63] The F-15SA (Saudi Advanced) variant includes the APG-63(v)3 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, digital electronic warfare systems (DEWS), infrared search and track (IRST) systems, and other advanced systems

 

[KS]

Isn't F-15 obsolete now?? ... plus quality and not price is what matters....

^daylight robbery

The deal comprises of the Eagles + upgrading existing eagles + 70 blackhawks + apaches + unknown number of A2A missiles + more than 8K JDAMs + some critical ToT

Also like Indians there is a 50% offset clause meaning about $15 billion will be invested in KSA itself..

 

[Bhartiya]

the saudis will get the F-15S The F-15SA aircraft, upgrade of its F-15S fleet to F-15SA standard, and related equipment and weapons through a Foreign Military Sale in October 2010.[63] The F-15SA (Saudi Advanced) variant includes the APG-63(v)3 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, digital electronic warfare systems (DEWS), infrared search and track (IRST) systems, and other advanced systems

No matter how much u update it, it is from the 80's, its useless... But then, saudi has oil , I wonder why it even needs an army

 

[Zebra]

2010-11 Saudi Shopping Spree Includes $29.4B Worth of F-15S .

$29.4 billion fighter sale. (Dec 29/11)
Dec 29, 2011 20:35 EST

In August 2010, reports surfaced in the Wall Street Journal that Saudi Arabia was negotiating a $30-60 billion arms package with the USA. The reported deal was said to involve another 84 F-15 Strike Eagles to replace the Kingdom's Tornado strike aircraft and/or F-15A-D fighters, about 132 UH-60 Black Hawk utility and AH-64 attack helicopters, and armaments to equip them.

Since the deal didn't even reach the official DSCA request stage until October 2010, details were still hazy at best. The reports did tie in to a number of events and deals that have been covered in previous years, however, and some details and key questions have emerged over time in reports, and in the DSCA's filings. This article looks at those requests, their tie-ins, the issues that are part of these potential deals, and related follow-on requests. As is often the case with DSCA announcements, years can pass between the requests and the signed contracts:

Contracts & Key Events

Dec 24/11: Saudi Arabia signs a $29.4 billion Letter of Acceptance to buy 85 new F-15SA Strike Eagle fighters, upgrade 70 existing F-15S Strike Eagles, purchase all of the accompanying weapons named in the fighters' Oct 20/10 DSCA request, and pay for support work and 10 years of training. Much of the Saudi training in the F-15SA will occur alongside U.S. forces, and approximately 5,500 Saudi personnel are expected to be trained through 2019. They expect upgrades of the F-15S to the F-15SA configuration to start rolling out in 2014, and 1st delivery of new-build F-15SAs in early 2015.

The additional work is expected to keep Boeing's F-15 line open until at least 2017 or so, along with 600 suppliers in 44 states. Big winners include Raytheon (radar, many weapons), and GE Aircraft Engines. While the State Department briefing would not answer the question of which engine the fighters would use, the DSCA request was clear: GE's F110-GE-129 IPE. It will also create work in Saudi Arabia, as some of the F-15S upgrade work, and some structural sub-assembly fabrication, will be handled through the Alsalam Aircraft Company.

An Aviation Week report adds that Saudi Arabia had previously signed a Letter of Agreement for the 36 AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters it requested on Oct 20/11. That would make 2 components worth over half of the $60 billion mega-deal under contract, plus a major upgrade of the kingdom's PATRIOT missile system on the side, in the space of just over a year beyond the DSCA announcement.

2010-11 Saudi Shopping Spree Includes $29.4B Worth of F-15S

 

[vanadium]

May be because F-35 is in altogether different category i.e. Stealth 5th generation. F-18, is 4.5th Gen. fighter jets.

My expectations were for F/A-24A (last known US fighter designation is YF-23)

 

[vanadium]

Google translated from:
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...e-en-inde.html

[URL="http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111113/jsp/frontpage/story_14743848.jsp"]Originally work of Olybrius at MP.net..

[/URL]

The surprise on the myth (and propaganda) of a cheaper Rafale applies only to the gullible and misinformed folks.
I have maintained in my previous posts that the two a/c were in the same ballpark for what regards the flyaway price.
Given the smaller order intake and production run, I expect Rafale to be more expensive overall as these extra costs are likely to have been shifted from the flyaway to the system price.
Rafale´s maintenance costs also likely to be higher due to inferior engine.

 

[vanadium]

It is quite impressive that Rafale has been consistently on the top in all those evaluations. IAF wants Rafale as well.

Please note that Typhoon in The Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore was a Tranche 1 configuration (A-A only) and winners were deep strike a/c (F-15E and JSF). More or less the same in Singapore. In Brazil Typhoon entered the competition too late and did not make it to the finals for lack of information.
Typhoon has been selected over Rafale in Saudi and in Greece (even though Greece suspended the procurement for lack of finance). Did better in Norway (not many people are familiar...). Typhoon was also selected in Austria.
Typhoon proposed in India is a much more mature and competent weapon system than those early competitions so it should do better than Rafale in India...
Only wins matter. Like in air combat, coming second is no good!

 

[vanadium]

It is quite impressive that Rafale has been consistently on the top in all those evaluations. IAF wants Rafale as well.

Please note that Typhoon in The Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore was a Tranche 1 configuration (A-A only) and winners were deep strike a/c (F-15E and JSF). More or less the same in Singapore. In Brazil Typhoon entered the competition too late and did not make it to the finals for lack of information.
Typhoon has been selected over Rafale in Saudi and in Greece (even though Greece suspended the procurement for lack of finance). Did better in Norway (not many people are familiar...). Typhoon was also selected in Austria.
Typhoon proposed in India is a much more mature and competent weapon system than those early competitions so it should do better than Rafale in India...
Only wins matter. Like in air combat, coming second is no good!

 

[Yawn]

No matter how much u update it, it is from the 80's, its useless... But then, saudi has oil , I wonder why it even needs an army

By your logic, the SU-30 should also be useless since it is from the 80s. And the Typhoon/Rafale was also designed in the 80s.

No aircraft flying today matches the range/payload capacity of the F-15E and that matters.

 

[Yawn]

Rafale´s maintenance costs also likely to be higher due to inferior engine.

How exactly are the Rafale's engines inferior?

 

[Yawn]

Please note that Typhoon in The Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore was a Tranche 1 configuration (A-A only) and winners were deep strike a/c (F-15E and JSF). More or less the same in Singapore. In Brazil Typhoon entered the competition too late and did not make it to the finals for lack of information.
Typhoon has been selected over Rafale in Saudi and in Greece (even though Greece suspended the procurement for lack of finance). Did better in Norway (not many people are familiar...). Typhoon was also selected in Austria.
Typhoon proposed in India is a much more mature and competent weapon system than those early competitions so it should do better than Rafale in India...
Only wins matter. Like in air combat, coming second is no good!

Mature or not, the Typhoon still comes integrated only with the Paveway-II/IV series of bombs. We have been hearing of integration of the Brimstone, cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles and what not for more than a decade, but progress has been excruciatingly low... at best. That is one area where the Rafale is better since a full configuration bird is currently flying with the French.

About Greece, the Rafale and a host of American birds were in contention, so the talk of it being 'selected' is at best speculation.

 

[vanadium]

The circus called MMRCA should be cancelled. GoI should go in for mass production of LCA Mk1 and Mk2, order 40 more Sukhoi Super30s.
With the price tag soaring to $20billion and a GDP slowing how do they intend to finance the deal?

Except for J20 that would probably enter service after 2017, the rest of the aircraft in PLAF, PAF inventory is no match to MKI. With Pakfa coming after 2017 there is no need for EF or Rafale.

Instead of spending exorbitant amounts on fancy equipment the Govt should focus more on Kaveri engine, development of better Aero engines and spend more on that front.

I like the "With Pakfa coming after 2017 there is no need for EF or Rafale."!!!
You forgot to quantify how much after 2017 is the so called "coming"...

 

[vanadium]

Well, there is a long way to go for EF until it becomes a real omnirole aircraft (according to British National Audit Office at least until 2018...). Furthermore, the EF project is not sure to be continued after 2017 for financial reasons, if there is no big export success.
In my opinion the Rafale has at least the potential of the EF and more capabilities so far. Of course there are similar financial constraints.
It might be that the winner of the Indian competition gets a huge boost for the future, but I doubt that two European omnirole aircrafts with similar target markets and in the same budget can coexist for a very long time. I wonder what the French intend to do in the future (join the other countries or not), as some sources were already talking about a Rafale successor before 2030. The contribution of the Dassault/Snecma/Sagem/Thales Know how could be a benefit for future European projects.

The Indian configuration Typhoon is already superior to Rafale. I just mention two vital fighter equipments: the engine and the big aperture re-positionable AESA radar. I debated quite profusely (in July) about the superior supersonic performance of the aerodynamic platform. so I will not repeat.
The French will join the other European nations for their future fighter requirement IF they can be MORE EQUAL than the other partners and lead the project. That is their idea of partnership. So beware! Let us not forget that the French were members of the original European Fighter Aircraft (which led to Typhoon and Rafale), but left for a couple of reasons. One minor reasons was the insistence in leading the project, which was obviously not accepted by the other four partners. The other--more serious--was that they wanted to impose a less technologically advanced French engine on the Rolls-Royce derived core engine. That was a totally unacceptable sacrifice for the other four nations and Air Forces. So the French ended up on their own and with a crappy engine, which every prospective customer who has evaluated it asked for heavy modifications. I should also mention the radar aperture (much smaller than Typhoon´s), but then the story would become very long...

 

[vanadium]

There is no doubt at all that the EF is behind the Rafale in the development curve. However there is little doubt on which is the better air superiority fighter. EF was always built keeping Air superiority in mind while Rafale took the more balanced approach.

There is no doubt that when it comes to maturity of systems, the Rafale is ahead of the EF-2000. What the Rafale will be in 2013, the EF will be in 2018.

The level of strike capability that the Rafale possesses is probably unmatched, with the exception of the SH, in a multirole fighter. However the EF, with what it can do today is quite good enough for strike role. It is better than the Mirage-2000 that IAF possesses and also a match for the MKI in terms of technology. The lack of an active ECM suite is a major problem for the EF.

I have always advocated induction of Rafale. However I don't mind EF either. Both are excellent. EF isn't omnirole in the strictest sense, but it's strike capability matches the late version Mirage-2000 in terms of technology and that is perhaps sufficient if you assume the EF was chosen because it matches or exceeds IAF's RFP and hence the reason for it's down select.



Aren't you the one who said EF cannot role!!!

Typhoon is a multirole fighter whose design driver is the air superiority mission whereas Rafale´s driver is the strike role. Expanding into the A-G missions for Typhoon is just a matter of time and will. As it was for the F-15A to move into the -E and the subsequent variants. It is not so easy—and most of the times impossible—to move the other way round and to become a top air superiority fighter from a platform whose key design drivers are for the surface attack roles. This is the true limitation of Rafale, and JSF to name a few contemporary designs.

The advantage of Typhoon in the Indian context is that there is much more flexibility in integrating the IAF A-G weapons of choice and that this highly sophisticated work can be part of a "noble" ToT offer.

Typhoon has a very advanced active ECM suite carried internally and which includes also towed decoys. These devices have proven to be very effective during the Serbian air operations a few years ago and are part of the self-defence kit of most fighters, excluded Rafale.

 

[vanadium]

It depends on what their requirements were. Their technical specifications may be different from IAF's, Austria's or even Luftwaffe's.

Give me a spec and a few capable contenders and I can "quite scientifically" prove that each aircraft is No.1 by simply tweaking the weighing I assign to each of the few hundreds parameters normally composing the spec.
Or of course I can write the spec around an existing design--like the Dutch did for the so-called JSF competition--and guess what? JSF is the winner!