India Cold Start Doctrine and Pakistan's Tactical Nukes

White Wolf

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No no...India can't win against pakishtan, we are mere vegetarians, moreover they have their iron brothers "higher than himalays, sweeter than honey, stronger than markhor and deeper than Pakistan ki maa ka bhosda". We poor indians won't stand a chance. One MIRV missile from Zaid Hamid's ass will be enough for us evil yindooos:
 

IndianHawk

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Second strike capability is there.it is not necessary that Pakistan use submarines to launch missiles in India.there are other solutions.now again same economy excuse.we can't match you,we k ow this but we can defend well.i am sure about defending.
Nope there is no second strike without long endurance nuke submarine. All surface vessels will be decimated. US Russia China India all developed nuclear triad for same reason .
Your understanding of nuclear warfare seems nascent.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk
 

Arsalan123

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Americans counted ur jets in Sargodha AFB? Pentagon said it is not aware of any such audit. Whom are u trying to fool,sir?

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/news...after-feb-aerial-dogfight-with-iaf/ar-BBVFL8Z


And u hit our helicopter? What is the range of AMRAAM? Where were ur fighters located and where was this heli? Are u on hash? Do u even understand wat u typin dude?
Crash was near Budgam and ur fighters were at Rajouri and Poonch. About 180 kms away frm crash site. Can ur AMRAAMs take on targets over 180 kms with precision?
i have no idea how they did that but ispr said two wreckages seen by all.we only saw mig-21 and your helicopter wreckage.it was clear that paf infiltrated deep but we denied it because we don't want tension.one of the video shared by one of your member showed first jet going down.when he moved the frames slowly slowly in the video,a mirage was seen coming out from your side to our side.it is clear that entire paf was airborne and there was jamming of professional level.i am not giving credit to pakistan but we really did unimaginable things like going in indian airspace.indian airspace is considered one of the safest airspace because of lots of sams and jets.americans later said that it is bilateral issue between pakistan and america but i know something bad happened on both sides on feb 27.on feb28,india wanted to attack and india was furious.why india was furious is another debate.
 

Arsalan123

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So can we conclude that cruise missile attack from Pak on india is not a high reward option?
i agree but there are lots of other factors.i don't think that india and pakistan can go to this level of escalation.a limited conflict is possible but attack with missiles is not possible.missile attack is considered act of aggression and it is second last level of escalation.last level is go nuclear which is almost impossible because other neighboring countries don't want to die with radiation.
 

Arsalan123

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Point 1: Pentagon denied any claims that it even counted anything.
Point 2: Russia doesn't needs to count SU-30's because we freakin bought them and didn't got them on donation.
Point 3: Mi-17 incident place was 200km away from LOC and you think your poor AMRAAMS can reach that far than you are smoking hash.
Point 4: Your dear beloved AMRAAM hit the ground near the loc and exploded
Have a good read:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...aam-missile-remnants/articleshow/68225187.cms
AMRAAM is not AMRAAM when you give it in the hands of monkeys.
you always make fun of my comments.think logically.why entire paf was airborne? what they were doing inside indian airspace and how deep they infiltrated? these are good questions.i know you launched interceptors but i have no idea about mig or f-16 dogfight and i believe this engagement happened at some later time and not during the initial attack.we did lots of things.one of the thing is to test indian sams.some of our jets were flying like cruise missiles and some on very high altitude.
 

Enquirer

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According the intel sources, the CIA flies the drugs all over Southeast Asia, to sites where the opium is processed into heroin, and to trans-shipment points on the route to Western customers.

As long as the U.S. occupation of Afghanistan continues under the guise of establishing a democratic government, the flow of heroin will continue unabated.

One question we should ask is, who owns the planes and the ships that transport 90% percent of the world’s heroin from Afghanistan to the rest of the world in the first place? It sure isn’t the Taliban or the ISI (which uses the drug trade for financing terrorism mostly in India and Afghanistan as well as financing its nuclear program).

It's a 1.5 trillion dollar industry! So will the US quit Afghanistan? Not a chance as the stakes are too high. The market is too lucrative to be handed over to Iran, the Pakis or the Chinese. Check it out:


CIA guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan.....

C'mon guys!!

Please don't peddle this BS on this forum!

Do you guys seriously believe that Bin Laden was innocent? This forum shouldn't become like Paki news channels that peddle such BS using some white guy as a facade!

Let me caution you...the folks that peddle in such 'trutherism' (like 9/11 being an inside job) are the same scumbags who also peddle that 26/11 was an inside job by Indian army!!!
 

Arsalan123

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Dont try to convince the posters from pakistan..
The info will come out in a few days from USA itself.
if your claim of f-16 is true,information will surely come out and i will not feel sad because i know t's difficult to save every plane from sams or jets.overall we did well.
 

Arsalan123

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Lol I am tired of explaining reality to Pakis. If SU30 was hit there is literally zero evidence. Why can't PAF release radar image? Why don't we see any videos of a third plane going down or parachute sightings? Or civilian sightings of SU30 going down over Kashmir as in MI17? ISPR just giving out BS to hide the sighting of the f16 going down claiming it is SU30. PAF dint hit MI17 just check the location of MI17 crash and see how far it is from the engagement zone also ISPR itself confirmed they dint have anything to do with it. And if PAF had really hit the MI17 then IAF would have confirmed that why would IAF hide that? And how hard is it for IAF to take out multiple Paki helis in Pakistan. But, it is speculated it might be friendly fire.

Why should Rus count our SU30? We dint sign any contract with them regarding the usage like how PAF did with US. Also, Americans dint count the F16 in Sargodha as denied by the Pentagon itself and not some magazine. What PAF did is put on a show for the Paki awaam but it went wrong horribly when Mig 21 crossed over and shot F16.
as i said earlier,if we lost f-16 than no worries.i asked lots of good questions above.why entire paf was airborne? what they were trying to do and how deep they infiltrated? iaf provided no answer to these questions.they only showed amraam and radar data but remember radar data was still pictures and not video so i am not sure about the next frame.pilots learn to hide their plane behind obstacles like high mountains.pilots use terrain for their advantage.vanished f-16 sign can only mean two things.either mig hit f-16 or f-16 used terrain to avoid radar detection.it depends on the situation.i am sure this mig or f-16 dogfight happened in the last stage and not in the initial stage.what entire paf was doing in initial stage? we know some jets dropped bomb close to military installations but where was other mirages and f-16s? india provided no answer and they didn't tell how deep paf infiltrated.even pakistani public don't know how deep we infiltrated.
 

Arsalan123

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U r talking as if Pakistan was not involved in any of those wars! Actually,if u really have read Indian history(as u claimed to),the region which bore the brunt of invasions was N.W.India known today as Pak.
Ur Qaid asked for Pak coz he is as much a retard as ur present leaders are. If he was really concerned abt Muslims in India,he should've asked only for W.Pak, knowing u guys treat the Bengalis as lowlifes. But,he didn't. He wanted to head a large Muslim majority nation and create a humongous image of himself in d muslim world. He is indirectly responsible for Bengali genocide in '71 and directly responsible for '46 Calcutta Massacre.
Don't teach us ur tiny miny history.
And don't reply hereafter. Don't want thread to derail further. Keep ur views to urself.
ok sir i will not reply.i am already banned on pakistani terrorism thread.nobody wants me here.sometimes you have to listen to others,understand the bigger picture and sometimes you need to stay silent.i will go to silent mood soon because some of the members started porki or porkistan.lol.
 

Arsalan123

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@Arsalan123 Dude, your politician said Hubble was sent into space by SUPARCO. I guess nothing is impossible for pakistan, may it be winning war against India or turning helis into jets. Shuper powel Pakistan.
our politicians are mostly corrupt and they have no idea about space and technology.this hubble comment shows lack of knowledge.it was pathetic.
 

Arsalan123

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Arsalan, I really do not know if you will ever understand it? But I still will give it a try.

India is a subcontinent, geographically closed and compact "Nation". Tamil Nadu in the extreme south can not remain unaffected by whatever happens in Afghanistan or Punjab. Be it environment, climate, politics, religion, famines or prosperity - it all effects the entire subcontinent. Be it Turks, Mongols, Huns, Kushan or Arabs, any thing that started in Sindh ultimately spread upto Assam and Tamil Nadu. Same was the case with Buddhism, same with Hinduism, same with national movement for independence. Politically there might have been different units but in all other respect they are almost as one.

So whatever happens in Pakistan, India gets effected. What ever happens in India, Pakistan can not remain aloof. That is why we Indians are worried the moment you have US bases. Chinese occupation of Pakistan is going to give us lots of headaches. Do not think that invasions in India happened from West only. Ashoka, Kanishka, Pals and many king, lately Sikhs invaded and captured present day Pakistan from East.

And now Modi will repeat the history of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Be prepared. Some Mohiyal General of Indian Army may retake the kingdom of Raja Dahir by capturing Sindh restoring glory of Mohyals.

And do not dream of Chinese capture of any part of India. If it ever happens, it is going to happen after they have completely taken Pakistan.
i agree with you.you talk sensibly and i have never seen you talking about illogical stuff.i don't know anything about history of india but i was sad when i read about panipat and basically i read all three panipat war stories.pakistan is not afghanistan and pakistanis aren't afghans so don't consider us afghans.pakistan is combined mixture of many dynasties and kingdoms like indus civilization,afghans,turks,rashidun caliphate,aryans,jats,marathas,bengalis,i mean everyone.we are mixture and we know we have created this country so it's our job to defend it.india said that pakistan want to wage war and use kashmir as an excuse but we can also feel that india wants to restore old pride.pride of indian state including today bangladesh and pakistan.this emotional feeling on both sides is the reason of conflict and it will continue because there are hot tempered people on both sides.current sindh government is so corrupt but obviously we love our country and giving our parts to india is not an option.we know we are small.we know we have small army.we know you have large number of resources.i don't know about ranjit singh.i will read about him tonight.
 

Enquirer

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i agree with you.you talk sensibly and i have never seen you talking about illogical stuff.i don't know anything about history of india but i was sad when i read about panipat and basically i read all three panipat war stories.pakistan is not afghanistan and pakistanis aren't afghans so don't consider us afghans.pakistan is combined mixture of many dynasties and kingdoms like indus civilization,afghans,turks,rashidun caliphate,aryans,jats,marathas,bengalis,i mean everyone.we are mixture and we know we have created this country so it's our job to defend it.india said that pakistan want to wage war and use kashmir as an excuse but we can also feel that india wants to restore old pride.pride of indian state including today bangladesh and pakistan.this emotional feeling on both sides is the reason of conflict and it will continue because there are hot tempered people on both sides.current sindh government is so corrupt but obviously we love our country and giving our parts to india is not an option.we know we are small.we know we have small army.we know you have large number of resources.i don't know about ranjit singh.i will read about him tonight.
Admitting your ignorance of Indian history is commendable. Here's some more revelations for you - you're ignorant of Paki history too!
The core of Pakistan was born in the minds of erstwhile Mughal aristocrats - who found themselves with no money or power after British took over! These good-for-nothings craved to reestablish Islamic supremacy over India. When India was choosing to become democratic (every man/woman being equal) after British exit, the Muslim league couldn't stomach the fact that Muslims will be 'brought down' to the level of Hindus; they felt Muslims should be the 'rulers'.
The best compromise Jinnah and cabal were willing to settle for was Muslims (comprising 25% of then India) will get 50% of ALL GOVERNMENT/POLITICAL positions! Pakistan was created because Indian Congress refused that idea.

So, your imagination about Pakistan being formed by various 'dynasties' & civilizations is BS - it was essentially a bigoted idea by rabid individuals!

Historical facts aside, Pakistan could have gone onto to become a stable and prosperous country. However the short-sightedness of defining itself only as India's enemy eventually led to Pakis spiraling into a vortex!

It's worth mentioning that the original inventors of the idea of Pakistan (Bihari & UP Muslims) got their ass whipped both in West Pakistan (by Punjabis) and in East Pakistan (by Bengalis)! It's funny that the same folks who championed for Pakistan creation desperately begged India to invade Pakistan and 'liberate mohajirs'!!

Politically Pakistan has never been a democracy - it was always a three way match among Army, Mullahs and the Feudal lords (Chaudhrys etc).

Afghanistan was far more progressive than Pakis ever were! Affghan women in 60s and 70s were very modern and enjoyed all freedoms! It was Zulfikar Bhutto who created the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to spread Islamic vitriol (long before USSR/USA got involved) in order to bring Afghans under Paki thumb! Pakis eventually destroy Afghanistan!
 

Craigs

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pakistan is ready for everything.after balakot,we know india will not sit silent and do something.we are waiting for an indian attack.this concept of cold start requires IAF to take out pakistani military installations and airbases.indian ground forces will not move until positive message from iaf which is impossible in current situation because paf already have large fleet of fighters.we know india will not deploy all su-30s and all rafales on pakistani border and all fighters will never attack pakistan.iaf managed to infiltrate because of lack of sams on pakistani side.this is a concern for pakistan.i think pakistan will improve sam network near border.iaf have to face both sams and fighter jets.i don't think that it's easy.cold start is not possible.cold start will surely escalate to multiple fronts.problems for indian army is supply lines and iaf presence.this can be very dangerous because it can trap you.we have almost 70 f-16s and i am sure we are safe.block 3 jf-17 doesn't even need to go closer to border.we just need more sams.both armies use missiles,tactical nuclear weapons.they are very dangerous.they are not hand grenade or rifle bullets.they are real threat.
Pakistan should inform everyone what happened on March 5-6.
 

itsme

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as i said earlier,if we lost f-16 than no worries.i asked lots of good questions above.why entire paf was airborne? what they were trying to do and how deep they infiltrated? iaf provided no answer to these questions.they only showed amraam and radar data but remember radar data was still pictures and not video so i am not sure about the next frame.pilots learn to hide their plane behind obstacles like high mountains.pilots use terrain for their advantage.vanished f-16 sign can only mean two things.either mig hit f-16 or f-16 used terrain to avoid radar detection.it depends on the situation.i am sure this mig or f-16 dogfight happened in the last stage and not in the initial stage.what entire paf was doing in initial stage? we know some jets dropped bomb close to military installations but where was other mirages and f-16s? india provided no answer and they didn't tell how deep paf infiltrated.even pakistani public don't know how deep we infiltrated.
ISPR says they dropped bombs from Pak airspace and as far as I know we have also maintained they dint enter our airspace and usually brigade HQs, ammo dumps on the LOC can be hit by artillery too on either sides and considering the fact PAF used LGBs then it is possible they dint violate the airspace. Also, even if the entire PAF was airborne it doesn't mean they all should be part of the main attack and as per Indian sources it was the mirages which was part of the main attack axis, came close to LOC and released package when they were being intercepted by Su30s which is when the F16s fired at them to cover the mirages escape and turned back which is when the Migs came from ground level with their radars off being guided by Phalcon and/or the Ground operator and use heat seekers not radar guided missiles.

Regarding Amraams lets say 4 of them were fired from long range against the 2 SU30s in that area and they were able to dodge cause it is at the max range and also probably by using anti radar counter measures with evasive maneuvers and electronic jamming and the missiles flew on and crashed somewhere. Then aint it painstaking and time consuming to find each and every piece of wreckage to prove the missiles missed? It doesn't make sense. If PAF is so sure about kill they can easily provide the same evidence what IAF provided, even has pics, but why haven't they? Also, they can provide the same evidence to prove that F16 which "disappeared" from our radar re-appearing on their radar or even better the radar images of all the F16s returning to base after the sortie. PAF dont have to ans to the civilian govt here where to release evidences it has to follow all sorts of red tape and get clearance but in Pakistan looking at things I feel all that can be bypassed. And still they haven't released it.

Also, to add, our radar images are from Phalcon AWACS so basically the radar is looking at the horizon and towards the earth, in this instance I dont think the F16 can avoid the radar by using terrain. And also everybody saw two planes falling from the sky, there are videos too i am sure you would've seen. And ISPR and PM itself confirmed they got 3 and one is in the hospital which we know is not IAF WC, then later they confirmed its 2 IAF pilots which ended up as one. Even locals talking about another pilot.

And there is the fact that R73 dint have the war head, it was just the seeker and burnt out motor.

YWhat does this all add up to?
 

White Wolf

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you always make fun of my comments.think logically.why entire paf was airborne? what they were doing inside indian airspace and how deep they infiltrated? these are good questions.i know you launched interceptors but i have no idea about mig or f-16 dogfight and i believe this engagement happened at some later time and not during the initial attack.we did lots of things.one of the thing is to test indian sams.some of our jets were flying like cruise missiles and some on very high altitude.
Bro, your comments are laughable, you argue without any reasoning and if you are gonna continue the debate without any reasoning then sarcasm is the only way forward. I am really tired of giving valid explainations and knocking some sense inside pakis, seems like they don't get it or they don't wanna get it. I just don't really care.
 

aghamarshana

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@Arsalan123 if u want to discuss the 27th-28th events do it in the appropriate thread. I don't find anything other than derailing,spamming here in this thread which is supposed to discuss CSD.
Search for the appropriate thread and start a discussion. Leave this thread for CSD only.
 

Bhadra

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OP PARAKRAM : DEVELOPMENT OF COLD START DOCTRINE (CSD)
Op Parakram, the largest mobilization of forces since 1971 War, was conducted by India in Dec 2001 in response to Pakistani terrorist attack on Indian Parliament on 13 Dec 01 as a measure in "Coercive Diplomacy". The mobilization however was carried out without any political directions to the armed forces. It commenced on 17 Dec 01 and was completed on 13 Jan 01. It remained in force till 16 October 02 ultimately leading to a 10 month stand off before Indian Army withdrew.

20 Mountain Division, 27 Mountain Divisions 57 Mountain Division, which have a dual-tasking role against both China and Pakistan, had never been switched so far were brought to the west.
In this period while Holding cops were ready for operations in 72-96 hours, armored columns of Strike Corps took nearly three weeks to reach borders of Pakistan. This time frame gives Pakistan adequate time to place their forces on border and international community starts interfering into the situation.

OP PARAKRAM also exposed Inability of Indian Army to present a timely threat to Pakistan particularly given their forward military location and spread along interior line of communications.
 

Bhadra

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OP PARAKRAM : DEVELOPMENT OF COLD START DOCTRINE (CSD)
SUNDARJI DOCTRINE EXPOSED

It became clear that Sundarji doctrine of such a large scale deep penetration operations into Pakistan was too crude, too big, inflexible and too time consuming for responding to events like a terrorist attack and other indirect challenges.

Limited aims and response to contingencies did not require full mobilization.

Size of Strike corps too large to make them deploy and maneuver.

Lack of Strategic Surprise.

Holding Corps lack of offensive power. Indian Army's dependence for offensive actions on Strike Corps only was a limiting factor. It hindered quick offensive response.

The time frame provided enough time window for external international powers, particularly USA to interject and persuade India against military actions.
 

Bhadra

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OP PARAKRAM : DEVELOPMENT OF COLD START DOCTRINE (CSD)
India’s failure to think through the end-game, due to lack of political will, due to the inability to calibrate coercion, due to the lack of politico-military synergy, and due to the absence of an exit strategy, Op Parakram became failure.

Higher directions of war (i.e. what was to be achieved, in what kind of time-frame) and what would be the rules of engagement (ROE) on land, at sea and in the air were not laid down by the political leadership.

India’s numerical advantage over Pakistan in main battle tanks (MBT) and infantry combat vehicles was 1.45:1, while the India-Pakistan fixed-wing combat aircraft ratio stood at 2.58:1. The ratio between India’s and Pakistan’s inventories of high-performance combat aircraft was approximately 3.03:1 in India’s favour. The ratio of India’s to Pakistan’s blue water naval vessels stood at 3.47:1. But advantages were taken.

Indian Forces were woefully short of essential ammunition, spares and other equipment and could have suffered badly in a war.
 

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