IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[Bheeshma]

Nice. I hope they place an order for 6 more scorpenes with AIP to make u for retiring Kilos and Type-209s.

 

[Punya Pratap]

And to add to Arnabmit's recent post the following news :

DCNS has successfully completed the operational and intermediate level crew training sessions of Platform Management System and Steering Console for the Indian Navy on 08th August 2014. The trainings were conducted during five weeks at HBL, Hyderabad, for the crew of 1st & 2nd Scorpene India submarines and MDL employees, for a total of 45 people.These trainings were initially scheduled in France but after successful local production, it was decided by DCNS and MDL with the Indian Navy to move a step ahead and conduct these trainings in India.

The Platform Management System (PMS) enables to control and monitor the submarine's main installations in propulsion, electricity, safety, auxiliary and stability domains. The steering system controls the motion of the submarine by controlling the hydroplanes and rudder. It also controls the propulsion, regulation and trim systems on board, by an interface with PMS. Such critical equipments demand a very high level of training for flawless operations on board.
The training comprised of operation and troubleshooting (On board maintenance) activities and simulation for real time situations. The training progress was continuously followed and reviewed by high level naval officials.

According to HBL, "Such crucial trainings were previously conducted abroad, but it is a matter of great pride that these trainings are now being conducted in India, on equipments manufactured at HBL". These complex crew trainings for PMS and Steering Console are the first ever operational and intermediate level trainings under P75 Scorpene® India program and their success in India can be attributed to the successful indigenization implemented by DCNS, at HBL, through transfer of production, On Job Training, Technical Assistance and TDP transfer.

DCNS India is assisting DCNS in conducting the crew training sessions in India and would remain a nodal point for organizing future P75 trainings in India.

About Local production of MPMs

Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) is constructing six SSK Scorpene Submarines (P75) under transfer of technology (ToT) from DCNS. MDL has further signed three contracts with DCNS for Manufacturing/ Procurement and delivery of selected submarine equipments/ items commonly known as MPM (Mazagon dock Procured Material) to be fitted in these Scorpene Submarines.
DCNS India, being a 100% owned subsidiary of DCNS, has been assigned the responsibility. By DCNS, for Indigenisation of selected MPM items from Submarine No 3 to 6, in India. DCNS India has entered into strategic partnerships with three Indian Companies for the purpose of indigenisation and capability building; i) SEC Industries Private Limited, Hyderabad for manufacturing of mechanical MPM items, ii) HBL Power Systems Limited, Hyderabad for manufacturing of electronic MPM items and iii) Flash Forge Private Limited for forging items.

 

[Zebra]

Defence News - First Scorpene submarine to be Named " INS Kalvari " goes to sea trial Next year

The first Scorpene submarine, to be named INS Kalvari

 

[LETHALFORCE]

DCNS completes crew training for 1st and 2nd Scorpene submarines of Indian Navy | idrw.org

 

[halloweene]

Succesfully according to DCNS btw

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Succesfully according to DCNS btw

Dude, both on DFI and on Bharat Rakshak forums (under username "Pagot") you are batting for French Equipment. So far , our experience has been a mixed bag with the French:

> Toofani was sanction prone in 1965 - no help from France
> Mirage 2000 had good availability in Kargil conflict.....But Upgrade is more expensive than buying new planes.
> DCNS procurement and delay of Scorpene Subs and ToT has become the longest running saga on Indian Defence...no help from France
> Rafael has no takers .....even in France.

The German brands in Indian Pvt Sector have a good reputation. The ToT and performance of Type 209 was quite good. They are technically sound and havent shafted anyone in their dealings wrt ToT, even the Greeks, Turks and Koreans have given them repeat orders.Should we trust the French with their dubious track record?

 

[halloweene]

Dude, both on DFI and on Bharat Rakshak forums (under username "Pagot") you are batting for French Equipment. So far , our experience has been a mixed bag with the French:

> Toofani was sanction prone in 1965 - no help from France
> Mirage 2000 had good availability in Kargil conflict.....But Upgrade is more expensive than buying new planes.
> DCNS procurement and delay of Scorpene Subs and ToT has become the longest running saga on Indian Defence...no help from France
> Rafael has no takers .....even in France.

The German brands in Indian Pvt Sector have a good reputation. The ToT and performance of Type 209 was quite good. They are technically sound and havent shafted anyone in their dealings wrt ToT, even the Greeks, Turks and Koreans have given them repeat orders.Should we trust the French with their dubious track record?

Tbh i intended to register in Bharat Raakshak with the nickname Halloweene, dunno what happened, if shows my real name. Nvm, nothing is secret about me (except my personal life).
No idea about Toofani.
Upgrade price about M-2000 is disputable. YES it is expensive for sure. Now neither you nor me know what is included inside. Rewiring a plane is damn expansive for ex.
About DCNS, i should have given a link as i was only reposting a news from DCNS. Sry i have dome other things to do usually .
RafaLE (not Rafael ) has no takers is an interesting sentence. Please develop.
Abou German having good reputation, good. Bit outdated, but nvm. Do you realize the extent of ToT in Scorpene deal as compared to those you cited?
Frankly what's the aim of your post? If you have questions about me, feel free. If you wanna compare international attitude about Kargil, nuke assays etc. Feel free.

 

[p2prada]

Dude, both on DFI and on Bharat Rakshak forums (under username "Pagot") you are batting for French Equipment. So far , our experience has been a mixed bag with the French:

> Toofani was sanction prone in 1965 - no help from France

The political situation at the time was different.

> Mirage 2000 had good availability in Kargil conflict.....But Upgrade is more expensive than buying new planes.

Actually, it is not. The contract includes cost of maintenance, spares, training, infrastructure and license production and upgradation. It is not just unit cost. If you include all of this for a cheap fighter like LCA, even LCA's cost is higher.

The French also plan to use their Mirage-2000 for another decade, so adequate support is available until then.

> DCNS procurement and delay of Scorpene Subs and ToT has become the longest running saga on Indian Defence...no help from France

It was MDL's inability to absorb ToT. The timeline they gave themselves to absorb ToT was unrealistic.

> Rafael has no takers .....even in France.

It's Rafale. Rafael is an Israeli company. And both ALA and MN want more fighters. A tranche 5 is to be ordered soon.

The German brands in Indian Pvt Sector have a good reputation. The ToT and performance of Type 209 was quite good. They are technically sound and havent shafted anyone in their dealings wrt ToT, even the Greeks, Turks and Koreans have given them repeat orders.Should we trust the French with their dubious track record?

France was the only western nation that supported India's nuclear policy, including the tests.

But yeah, they are expensive. And IAF wants a second reliable supplier apart from Russia. American equipment is cheaper, but is sanction prone. Hence not a reliable supplier, the Pakistanis know that firsthand.

Germans are much more fickle than the Americans. We got to war and they will cut off all military contacts. It doesn't matter if we are not the aggressors. They basically want us to buy their equipment and then surrender during war. They expected that during Kargil. So, they are not a good military partner.

The Russians have no issues with how and where we use their weapons in whatever conditions. Even if we nuke Chinese and Pakistani cities, they have no issues. Nobody can pressure them.

The French can come under US and NATO pressures to take measures against India in such a situation, but there will be a lot of back and forth statements until a lot of time has passed. We can see that in the Russia-Ukraine situation and their contract over Mistral. If money has changed hands, then they try their best to stick to the contract.

Israeli support can be expected during war. The US will look the other way if we end up fighting Pakistan or China. But they don't have such a vast military industrial complex and themselves rely on imports. So, their support is limited.

The British are American stooges, basically another American state. They will do what the Americans do.

The Japanese are extremely far from any kind of major military relations with India. They are sure to put sanctions on us just like the Germans during war.

 

[ersakthivel]

Dude, both on DFI and on Bharat Rakshak forums (under username "Pagot") you are batting for French Equipment. So far , our experience has been a mixed bag with the French:

> Toofani was sanction prone in 1965 - no help from France
> Mirage 2000 had good availability in Kargil conflict.....But Upgrade is more expensive than buying new planes.
> DCNS procurement and delay of Scorpene Subs and ToT has become the longest running saga on Indian Defence...no help from France
> Rafael has no takers .....even in France.

The German brands in Indian Pvt Sector have a good reputation. The ToT and performance of Type 209 was quite good. They are technically sound and havent shafted anyone in their dealings wrt ToT, even the Greeks, Turks and Koreans have given them repeat orders.Should we trust the French with their dubious track record?

Against china , there will be only two powers in the world that can handle the heat, they are Russia, and US.

Expecting french to face chinese anger for a few billion dollars more from india is childish, that too when both china and india are in a make or break war.

In case of indo-pak war the french will be professional and supplying both with spares for rafale and spares for agusta subs in pak, till the US dictates the ultimate terms.

thats why we should cure ourselves of this myopic "diversifying of our strategic eggs into different nation's nest" and go for serious local production.

you can ask back that tejas has US engines. Doesn't matter in a decade's time when they come back for engine change we will have the tech to replace those engines with our engines , if research is adequately funded.If that engine effort has to be funded we need more than 300 tejas in service. chicken and egg situation faced by all countries once in their life and overcome with hard decisions.


We can any day change the brahmos rocket engine to our local tech, once we reach there. No one stops us.

Same with new JV for K-10. DRDO chief says even if the engine core parts are made in foreign countries the IP rights will be with us for K-10. SO when we reach tech level good enough we can make them with out anyone making any fuss over it. IAF shot down the K-10 JV proposal for some mysterious reasons saying that thrust is not enough.

Baby steps are now taken by new govt with increasing DRDO funds by 65 percent, introducing 118 more Arjun mk2s and favoring Akash over Mistral JV with france.Now LUH tender is shot down and mostly it will have to be developed locally. Also Modi govt accepting DRDO request for 300 scientist an year intake opposed to just 70 a year now.

 

[Pulkit]

Against china , there will be only two powers in the world that can handle the heat, they are Russia, and US.

Expecting french to face chinese anger for a few billion dollars more from india is childish, that too when both china and india are in a make or break war.

In case of indo-pak war the french will be professional and supplying both with spares for rafale and spares for agusta subs in pak, till the US dictates the ultimate terms.

thats why we should cure ourselves of this myopic "diversifying of our strategic eggs into different nation's nest" and go for serious local production.

you can ask back that tejas has US engines. Doesn't matter in a decade's time when they come back for engine change we will have the tech to replace those engines with our engines , if research is adequately funded.If that engine effort has to be funded we need more than 300 tejas in service. chicken and egg situation faced by all countries once in their life and overcome with hard decisions.


We can any day change the brahmos rocket engine to our local tech, once we reach there. No one stops us.

Same with new JV for K-10. DRDO chief says even if the engine core parts are made in foreign countries the IP rights will be with us for K-10. SO when we reach tech level good enough we can make them with out anyone making any fuss over it. IAF shot down the K-10 JV proposal for some mysterious reasons saying that thrust is not enough.

Baby steps are now taken by new govt with increasing DRDO funds by 65 percent, introducing 118 more Arjun mk2s and favoring Akash over Mistral JV with france.Now LUH tender is shot down and mostly it will have to be developed locally. Also Modi govt accepting DRDO request for 300 scientist an year intake opposed to just 70 a year now.

we are on the same page when we talk about Made In India....


but Just confirming one thing....

what ever part or module we are importing should be with the intent that we can manufacture them on our own aswell....?
is this what you are also stating....

regarding LUH what is the diff b/t LUH and dhruv apart from cost?

and if LUH is further delayed (I hve lost a bit of faith in defense forces .drdo ( hal never had it)) what will our soldiers do?

I read recently that cheetah or cheetal were ready for deliveries to afghan....
can we not have 30-40 of those birds newly built to cover up a bit.....?

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

we are on the same page when we talk about Made In India....


but Just confirming one thing....

what ever part or module we are importing should be with the intent that we can manufacture them on our own aswell....?
is this what you are also stating....

regarding LUH what is the diff b/t LUH and dhruv apart from cost?

and if LUH is further delayed (I hve lost a bit of faith in defense forces .drdo ( hal never had it)) what will our soldiers do?

I read recently that cheetah or cheetal were ready for deliveries to afghan....
can we not have 30-40 of those birds newly built to cover up a bit.....?

Pulkit, about the LUH cancelatuon what MoD declare that heli will be "built in India". So I don't think that they just fall for LUH of HAL.
WHAT I get from this is that tender will be reissue. Only Indian companies ( JV upto 49%) will be able to prticipate. So so far HAL made LUH and seeking eurocopter's expertise. Tata and Sikorsky also had deal on navy's MRH, they easily can extend partnership and participate in tender. Kamiv also show interest on shifting manufacturing line in India in past.
So I think they want LUH in FICV style. And I don't see any reason for foreign companies as tender can be upto 500 helis.

On lighter note, that deal will be slap on those faces who were saying that 49% FDI in defence is not enough to attract companies. But they forget that it is about policy implimentation not about formulation.

 

[Pulkit]

Pulkit, about the LUH cancelatuon what MoD declare that heli will be "built in India". So I don't think that they just fall for LUH of HAL.
WHAT I get from this is that tender will be reissue. Only Indian companies ( JV upto 49%) will be able to prticipate. So so far HAL made LUH and seeking eurocopter's expertise. Tata and Sikorsky also had deal on navy's MRH, they easily can extend partnership and participate in tender. Kamiv also show interest on shifting manufacturing line in India in past.
So I think they want LUH in FICV style. And I don't see any reason for foreign companies as tender can be upto 500 helis.

On lighter note, that deal will be slap on those faces who were saying that 49% FDI in defence is not enough to attract companies. But they forget that it is about policy implimentation not about formulation.

this was not my concern actually....
Jv49% will b critical here....
but all this will be time consuming....

What about the immediate replacements required.....?

i repeat...
regarding LUH what is the diff b/t LUH and dhruv apart from cost?
cheetah or cheetal were ready for deliveries to afghan..assembly lines running wont cost us much....
can we not have 30-40 of those birds newly built to cover up a bit to reduce pressure from dhruv.....?

 

[Twinblade]

Following a naval tradition, in which warships never die, the new diesel-electric submarines will be named as per the old Foxtrot class boats, which were decommissioned decades ago. They were the first submarines of the Navy. The first two Scorpene submarines would be christened as Kalvari and Khanderi.

First Scorpene submarine to become reality soon

The alarm bells have gone off. After nine long years of waiting, the Indian Navy couldn't have expected a worse time for it to happen.

Suffering from two debilitating underwater losses within a year and tardy acquisition process, its only hope, Project 75 involving the construction of six Scorpene submarines based on transfer of technology from the French firm DCNS, is on the verge of taking a hit, resulting into the fourth straight extension of delivery deadline.

The Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), which is building the boats with DCNS' assistance, has stated that critical spares which were to be supplied by DCNS are yet to materialise despite the deadlines expiring. What makes the crisis worse is the fact that these spares impact the first boat in all sections and thereby the lack of availability is expected to hit progress in construction. The present delivery schedule was worked out in November 2012 and orders were placed accordingly. This schedule stipulated that the first submarine would get commissioned into the navy by September 2016 and the remaining five at intervals of nine months after that. It is this schedule which now stands breached.

Meanwhile, the MDL has completed the construction of the six hulls for the six boats and has made headway into outfitting work on the first.

Rear Admiral (retd) Rahul Shrawat, Chairman and Managing Director, MDL said, "Earlier too this project was delayed on account of Mazagon Procurement Material (MPM) not being procured on time. Fresh MPM was ordered following a review. Of that, while some parts have come, some have not despite their delivery deadlines expiring. I am being forced to absorb delays and on many occasions I am undoing work I have done because parts come in later on". He added that the Ministry of Defence had been briefed over this and the 'pressure from all sides' was being applied on DCNS to deliver. "Even if it comes through today, I can deliver the boat on time," he mentioned. When asked if a revised timeline will have to worked out, following the delay, his response was, "I can't comment till the material actually comes to me."

It was informed that the first of the Scorpene boats was ready to be 'launched' in September next year. A year of trials after that, involving all systems including weapon firing, she should be ready for commissioning into the navy i.e in September 2016. "Work is going on 24 by 7 at the yard and we are highly motivated. My fingers are crossed," he added.

French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard : India, News - India Today

 

[anoop_mig25]

First Scorpene submarine to become reality soon


French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard : India, News - India Today

Why we wont take such delays with french authorities ?????

europe and american blockage on china on technology has worked as an advantage for china

atleast through cut copy paste they have developed decent submarine fleet which can take any asian nation.

And we are still struggling to develope a decent submarine fleet

 

[Zebra]

Cancel the deal, for not supplying stuff on time and thus breach of contract.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear Casper please note IN is in dire straits when it comes to its under water capabilities so forget about cancelling they wont even exercise the penalty clause!!

DCNS is just shooting itself in the foot and can forget a follow on order.... I think I know why Dassault was twisting its knickers over HAL being lead integrator!!

Hell HAL has nt even delivered the first SP!!

 

[Pulkit]

ok cancel the deal.... wat next then? wat abt incomplete subs?

Cancel the deal, for not supplying stuff on time and thus breach of contract.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Cancel the deal after one freaking decade? Utter nonsense . The issue last I heard
Was india wants indigenous aip placed and French don't?

 

[Defcon 1]

Cancel the deal after one freaking decade? Utter nonsense . The issue last I heard
Was india wants indigenous aip placed and French don't?

That is only for the last two subs. It shouldn't affect the first four subs. This issue is different.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

That is only for the last two subs. It shouldn't affect the first four subs. This issue is different.

I still think Swedish a26 needs to be considered I have been saying this for years.
Going with German not much advantage when pak also has.