IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

lcafanboy

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At those time we, the french, intend to sell many Airbus and TGV and nuclear power units to China...
We had to make some efforts.
So in short that was, YOU SCRATCH MY BACK AND I SCRATCH YOUR BACK....

But in India s case it will be tit for tat for selling 8 JUNK submarines to porkistan. So stop weapons to porkistan and we stop weapons to Taiwan. Actually a very good strategy.....
 

Flame Thrower

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So in short that was, YOU SCRATCH MY BACK AND I SCRATCH YOUR BACK....

But in India s case it will be tit for tat for selling 8 JUNK submarines to porkistan. So stop weapons to porkistan and we stop weapons to Taiwan. Actually a very good strategy.....
I don't think we can sell scorpene subs without french approval.

French will not give approval because of their deal with China.

Coming to the tweet by Indian Defense, it could be nothing more than wish full thinking

If we look at our orders, we may not finish our orders by 2025(including 3 follow on subs). If Taiwan can get scorpene subs only after 2025, then I don't think they'll consider ordering it now.

Thus I rest my case.
 

nongaddarliberal

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I don't think we can sell scorpene subs without french approval.

French will not give approval because of their deal with China.

Coming to the tweet by Indian Defense, it could be nothing more than wish full thinking

If we look at our orders, we may not finish our orders by 2025(including 3 follow on subs). If Taiwan can get scorpene subs only after 2025, then I don't think they'll consider ordering it now.

Thus I rest my case.
If that is the rate of our production then we need to build more shipyards for submarines. We need to have around 40 attack subs total by 2030 considering the rate of Chinese production and additional subs coming to pakistan.
 

Flame Thrower

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If that is the rate of our production then we need to build more shipyards for submarines. We need to have around 40 attack subs total by 2030 considering the rate of Chinese production and additional subs coming to pakistan.
There is no order of 40 subs...

Only 6(3 on option but not confirmed), one has been built, but 2 in the process. No future plans to increase purchase.

Coming to.subs, I think IN is more focused on SLBMs. And no infi comes from that end.

Scorpene(and its derivatives) will be our flag bearer in SSK class atleast for two decades.

Coming to countering subs, Kamorta class and poseidons are great counters for Chinese and Paki subs
 

Kshithij

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There is no order of 40 subs...

Only 6(3 on option but not confirmed), one has been built, but 2 in the process. No future plans to increase purchase.

Coming to.subs, I think IN is more focused on SLBMs. And no infi comes from that end.

Scorpene(and its derivatives) will be our flag bearer in SSK class atleast for two decades.

Coming to countering subs, Kamorta class and poseidons are great counters for Chinese and Paki subs
3 submarines have been launched - Kalvari, Khanderi, Karanj. Other 3 are in constructions at various stages.What are you saying about 2025? By 2021 all the 6 submarines would have been delivered and before 2020 itself an assembly line will get empty and will have to get new orders to maintain skilled workers. So, the next 6 submarines will also be completed by 2025 if the pace of construction is increased a little.

About Arihant class submarine, it was always meant to be SSN, not SSBN. It was simply stated to be SSBN to divert attention. Realistically, there is no point in having SSBN except to target USA or other American countries. All other countries are targettable in Agni-5. The concept of second strike is foolish at best and there is no way anyone can take out the nuclear missiles kept in safe locations like under mountains, lakes etc as hardened silos. India can easily keep some hardened silos under western ghats or Himalayas or under big lakes like Chilika lakes etc. Also, the radars give early warning about missile launch and hence there can be no surprise attack either. Also, Indian Arihant is the same size of Akula and is a small submarine to be called a SSBN. No submarine that is intended to launch ballistic missile is that small.

Scorpene will be eventually indigenised 100% and will be made in India with some design alteration to avoid sensitive data from being detected by France
 

Armand2REP

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There is no order of 40 subs...

Only 6(3 on option but not confirmed), one has been built, but 2 in the process. No future plans to increase purchase.
The options clause is 6+6. MDL has been selected as the shipyard for P75I... take a guess what it is. :hat:
 

nongaddarliberal

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There is no order of 40 subs...

Only 6(3 on option but not confirmed), one has been built, but 2 in the process. No future plans to increase purchase.

Coming to.subs, I think IN is more focused on SLBMs. And no infi comes from that end.

Scorpene(and its derivatives) will be our flag bearer in SSK class atleast for two decades.

Coming to countering subs, Kamorta class and poseidons are great counters for Chinese and Paki subs
I meant 40 including the ones we already have.
 

Flame Thrower

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3 submarines have been launched - Kalvari, Khanderi, Karanj. Other 3 are in constructions at various stages.What are you saying about 2025? By 2021 all the 6 submarines would have been delivered and before 2020 itself an assembly line will get empty and will have to get new orders to maintain skilled workers. So, the next 6 submarines will also be completed by 2025 if the pace of construction is increased a little.
When was the last time any dpsu kept it's promise.



About Arihant class submarine, it was always meant to be SSN, not SSBN. It was simply stated to be SSBN to divert attention. Realistically, there is no point in having SSBN except to target USA or other American countries. All other countries are targettable in Agni-5. The concept of second strike is foolish at best and there is no way anyone can take out the nuclear missiles kept in safe locations like under mountains, lakes etc as hardened silos. India can easily keep some hardened silos under western ghats or Himalayas or under big lakes like Chilika lakes etc. Also, the radars give early warning about missile launch and hence there can be no surprise attack either. Also, Indian Arihant is the same size of Akula and is a small submarine to be called a SSBN. No submarine that is intended to launch ballistic missile is that small.
Second strike through SLBM is kind of having insurance. Most think that money spent on Insurance is useless, only few understand what's it for.

Coming to SSBN, it's not the size, but ability to carry SLBM makes the difference. And Arihant can carry four K-4 SLBMs.



Scorpene will be eventually indigenised 100% and will be made in India with some design alteration to avoid sensitive data from being detected by France
I think we need some kind of approval before we make such changes. Maybe we've already got that approval kind of thing.
 

Kshithij

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Second strike through SLBM is kind of having insurance. Most think that money spent on Insurance is useless, only few understand what's it for.

Coming to SSBN, it's not the size, but ability to carry SLBM makes the difference. And Arihant can carry four K-4 SLBMs.
If everything is destroyed, you are already dead. There is no point in insurance after you are dead. Next, the number of missiles are already in tens of thousands and they will not be all destroyed. Insurance is needed when the number of missiles are in few hundred or less. Having large number of missiles is already an insurance in itself. Also, how will you communicate with a SSBN underwater in far off oceans if everything is destroyed?

I think we need some kind of approval before we make such changes. Maybe we've already got that approval kind of thing.
The whole point of scorpene itself was indigenous capability development. Also, there is no need for approval for a new design from France. India can't make the same design due to IPR but can change it and then it becomes Indian design. Technology is what matters while design is easily changed
 

BON PLAN

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India can't make the same design due to IPR but can change it and then it becomes Indian design. Technology is what matters while design is easily changed
Be carefull !
things apparently easy are not in fact.
See Spain S80.... an indigenous derivative of Scorpene.... a big mistake. :pound:
 

Kshithij

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Be carefull !
things apparently easy are not in fact.
See Spain S80.... an indigenous derivative of Scorpene.... a big mistake. :pound:
Yes, they made it too heavy and it could not rise and then increased its size beyond that of its pen! That was quite silly
 

rishivashista13

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Don't underestimate the importance of second strike capability and it's relevance with SSBN.
SSBN is best plateform available for second strike situation, because enemy will target all of your ballistic missile stations, and say if he is not able to attack them he will keep his eye (radars, satellites, other reconnaissance assets) on them 24×7.
SSBN provides a secure launch platform.
Another advantage is distance, by using SSBN you can close into enemy waters and then fire the missile from any location according to situation. This will give very less time to enemy for react.
SSBN is the most destructive weapon platform available on globe.
3 submarines have been launched - Kalvari, Khanderi, Karanj. Other 3 are in constructions at various stages.What are you saying about 2025? By 2021 all the 6 submarines would have been delivered and before 2020 itself an assembly line will get empty and will have to get new orders to maintain skilled workers. So, the next 6 submarines will also be completed by 2025 if the pace of construction is increased a little.

About Arihant class submarine, it was always meant to be SSN, not SSBN. It was simply stated to be SSBN to divert attention. Realistically, there is no point in having SSBN except to target USA or other American countries. All other countries are targettable in Agni-5. The concept of second strike is foolish at best and there is no way anyone can take out the nuclear missiles kept in safe locations like under mountains, lakes etc as hardened silos. India can easily keep some hardened silos under western ghats or Himalayas or under big lakes like Chilika lakes etc. Also, the radars give early warning about missile launch and hence there can be no surprise attack either. Also, Indian Arihant is the same size of Akula and is a small submarine to be called a SSBN. No submarine that is intended to launch ballistic missile is that small.

Scorpene will be eventually indigenised 100% and will be made in India with some design alteration to avoid sensitive data from being detected by France
Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Don't underestimate the importance of second strike capability and it's relevance with SSBN.
SSBN is best plateform available for second strike situation, because enemy will target all of your ballistic missile stations, and say if he is not able to attack them he will keep his eye (radars, satellites, other reconnaissance assets) on them 24×7.
SSBN provides a secure launch platform.
Another advantage is distance, by using SSBN you can close into enemy waters and then fire the missile from any location according to situation. This will give very less time to enemy for react.
SSBN is the most destructive weapon platform available on globe.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk
Why can't India simply hide the missile in lakes and oceans in pontoons instead of having submarines?
 

Kshithij

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Don't underestimate the importance of second strike capability and it's relevance with SSBN.
SSBN is best plateform available for second strike situation, because enemy will target all of your ballistic missile stations, and say if he is not able to attack them he will keep his eye (radars, satellites, other reconnaissance assets) on them 24×7.
SSBN provides a secure launch platform.
Another advantage is distance, by using SSBN you can close into enemy waters and then fire the missile from any location according to situation. This will give very less time to enemy for react.
SSBN is the most destructive weapon platform available on globe.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk
SSBN is just a tool for long distance BM launch. It is impossible to destroy the missile silos and TEL as tehy are present in thousands across India, even in Lakshadweep, A&N etc. The measly 12-16 BM on submarines can carry utmost 100 BM even with 6-8 submarines which is nothing compared to what can be carried on land. Also, first strike can't be done on all targets. India will detect the mobilisation, build ups and also radars will detect the missile at launch. The massive booster phase where the missile rises up is a clear indication of missile being fired. It can't be hidden as such massive fireball and heat generated will be easy to detect.
 

Kshithij

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Low frequency radio and most of the time one primitive technology which is still in use from WW1.
That was a good question actually. How will you use Low frequency in oceans? The water is known to absord the waves quickly. More than the point I am trying to make about submarines BM being useless due to lack of need, the communication question is a bigger one.
 

Chinmoy

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That was a good question actually. How will you use Low frequency in oceans? The water is known to absord the waves quickly. More than the point I am trying to make about submarines BM being useless due to lack of need, the communication question is a bigger one.
They make use of VLF for receiving purpose. For transmitting they come upto periscope depth and then communicate with normal frequency radio by raising the antenna mast above water.

Study on ELF communication is under way.

India to be second country to use ELF facility

https://www.thehindu.com/news/citie...untry-to-use-elf-facility/article18517424.ece

Now this ELF could travel 100s of meter under sea water.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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They make use of VLF for receiving purpose. For transmitting they come upto periscope depth and then communicate with normal frequency radio by raising the antenna mast above water.

Study on ELF communication is under way.

India to be second country to use ELF facility

https://www.thehindu.com/news/citie...untry-to-use-elf-facility/article18517424.ece

Now this ELF could travel 100s of meter under sea water.
100s of metres under water. But, if the submarine is say, near Taiwan, how will India communicate?
 

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