IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[Tactical Frog]

Having a hard time figuring out why the first Indian Scorpene do not come with AIP .. retrofitting them seems possible but very costly I guess. I am hearing a lot that the french system is inferior to swedish and german AIP .. maybe so but better an inferior AIP than no AIP at all. It was quite possible to have MESMA on the first four Kalvari class then the DRDO new system for the rest being built.

 

[garg_bharat]

It seems MOD wants 3 more Scorpene. However even this may be stuck on price.

The local diesel sub program (most likely for private sector) is on track.

 

[garg_bharat]

DRDO has undertaken a project on development of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for Submarine, based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The details of Project are given below:-
Date of Sanction: 16th August 2010
Probable Date of Completion (PDC): 31st March 2016
Cost of Project: Rs. 216/- Crores
Present Status:-
(i) Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM) of AIP has been established. Laboratory testing has been completed to prove the concept. Indian Navy has also witnessed the trials.
(ii) Land Based Prototype of AIP has been realized.
The AIP is based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The Fuel Cell, stacks along with Hydrogen generation, has been tested continuously and expected power has been achieved in Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM).
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/12/drdos-air-independent-propulsion-aip.html

These AIP modules will be used for the local sub project.

 

[garg_bharat]

After years of delays,[5] in October 2014, Project 75l was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council. ₹53000 crore (US$8 billion) was allocated for the acquisition of 6 advanced attack submarines.

The committee shortlisted 5 shipyards which include Hindustan Shipyard, Mazagon Dock, Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Larsen & Toubro and Pipavav Shipyard.

These shipyards are expected to be submitting their bids in partnership with an international shipyard and the Indian navy will choose a design and shipyard which meets its specifications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_75I-class_submarine

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

DRDO has undertaken a project on development of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for Submarine, based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The details of Project are given below:-
Date of Sanction: 16th August 2010
Probable Date of Completion (PDC): 31st March 2016
Cost of Project: Rs. 216/- Crores
Present Status:-
(i) Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM) of AIP has been established. Laboratory testing has been completed to prove the concept. Indian Navy has also witnessed the trials.
(ii) Land Based Prototype of AIP has been realized.
The AIP is based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The Fuel Cell, stacks along with Hydrogen generation, has been tested continuously and expected power has been achieved in Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM).
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/12/drdos-air-independent-propulsion-aip.html

These AIP modules will be used for the local sub project.

It's good that DRDO is making a desi version of AIP technology but what about the first 4 scorpene submarines? Will they be fitted with these AIP technology in future?? If not will they have any disadvantage against enemy submarines with AIP??

 

[garg_bharat]

It's good that DRDO is making a desi version of AIP technology but what about the first 4 scorpene submarines? Will they be fitted with these AIP technology in future?? If not will they have any disadvantage against enemy submarines with AIP??

I don't think so. It will only increase the cost further.

The sub can run 4 days without aip and 3 weeks with aip underwater, as claimed by drdo.

Advantage gained depends on tactical situation. As india has greater coast length and much larger resources, it may not make much difference.

 

[MKM]

I think building more French subs is a better choice. But rather go for Scorpenes than S80.

S80 @ 7.3 too cannot accomodate a Brahmos VLS. I am not saying that is a definitive requirement of P75I - but if not then why make a different model?

Then how can Amur accommodate BrahMos VLS which is even smaller than S80?

 

[aditya g]

Good question. The only way is to incorporate a hump similar to arihant. There is no space for Oscar style inclined tubes.

Then how can Amur accommodate BrahMos VLS which is even smaller than S80?

 

[Immanuel]

Indeed, P-75 deal should be cancelled and 6 AIP Scorpenes should be ordered right away, the line is active and we can have lower operating costs. 12 Scorpenes is a good number to have. This new hunt for subs only delays the induction. Now we can have the next 6 Scorpenes within 10 years. Not sure if the follow-on for the 3 scorpenes is a done deal, is so great. 15 is good number. These can be the last sub imports, the rest can be home made nuke propelled subs.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

The upcoming BrahMos-NG variant (same 290km range, max speed boosted to Mach 3.5 and weighs approx. 1.5 tons) is being designed to fit into any 533mm torpedo tubes. Therefore a VLS fitment will no longer be necessary even if IN decides that future anti-ship SLCM capability needs to be based around the BrahMos platform instead of subsonic Exocet/Harpoon/Klub.

Incorporating a VLS into an existing design is a hard job...will take much redesigning and will also alter the CoG of the vessel. Only some SSKs come with a pre-planned VLS module setup. But given the type of subs considered for P-75I, I too do not think this was a defined requirement. It must have just been an attempt by some of the competitors to make their offer look more attractive to IN.

I believe the whole reason for P-75I was the Air-Independent Propulsion package, which is a prerequisite for competing in this tender. But now with DCNS offering improved Scorpenes with AIP modules similar to what the S80 would have, the tender has lost most of it's prospective value. At this point, scrapping the tender would not result in any probable capability-loss in future as upgrading Scorpene can incorporate all those advancements.

By all means, it makes sense to scrap P-75I and go for further numbers of Scorpenes.

Original 6 + follow-on 3, now we can add 6 more under the requirement P-75I aimed to fulfill. A total of 15 modern diesel-electric SSKs, more than half of which should have AIP and all based around the Scorpene design & infrastructure will be a potent underwater asset for IN. While also saving billions in setting up a different production line, adjusting to new ToT and new maintenance/repair infrastructure.

This seems very practical. Rather than waiting a long time and under going the risk of working with new technologies and vendor, It is very cost effective, fast and less risky to deal with the product which we already produces. We should make necessary changes in scorpene to incorporate new technology. AIP is sure to come, Scorpene has all state of art equipments. Whatever the gap is there with Project 75I is there in term of new weaponry, technology and instrument is there, the time leg which is there by which we complete existing Scorpene order and start proposed Project 75 I/ Improved Scorpene should be sufficient to realize the gaps.

The only question to be asked is whether the scorpene is roughly in the same weight class and function of project 75I, If the answer is yes, than we can do with an incremental order of scorpene.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Enough.

................................................................

AIP shall increase by factor 4 minimum.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

German Type-216 or 218 are much better than scorpene submarines.....and cheaper too..

I doubt. They would have been selected German sub otherwise.

 

[MKM]

Indeed, P-75 deal should be cancelled and 6 AIP Scorpenes should be ordered right away, the line is active and we can have lower operating costs. 12 Scorpenes is a good number to have. This new hunt for subs only delays the induction. Now we can have the next 6 Scorpenes within 10 years. Not sure if the follow-on for the 3 scorpenes is a done deal, is so great. 15 is good number. These can be the last sub imports, the rest can be home made nuke propelled subs.

Recently DM MP announced that expertise gained in building Scorpenes won't be wasted, there will be more orders of Scorpenes that is sure.
In 90s we had more than 20 submarines & now effectively we have only one submarines (Chakra) which will be active beyond 2025 & everyone knows our plan in 2000 was to have 12 SSKs by now also 6 SSNs, 6SSBNs for 2030 but now we can say our economy & roll has changed as China has 50 SSKs so IN may be looking for about 20 SSKs do we want all the SSKs of only Scorpene class?
Well I don't know, if you know please tell me.

This seems very practical. Rather than waiting a long time and under going the risk of working with new technologies and vendor, It is very cost effective, fast and less risky to deal with the product which we already produces. We should make necessary changes in scorpene to incorporate new technology. AIP is sure to come, Scorpene has all state of art equipments. Whatever the gap is there with Project 75I is there in term of new weaponry, technology and instrument is there, the time leg which is there by which we complete existing Scorpene order and start proposed Project 75 I/ Improved Scorpene should be sufficient to realize the gaps.

The only question to be asked is whether the scorpene is roughly in the same weight class and function of project 75I, If the answer is yes, than we can do with an incremental order of scorpene.

I know Scorpenes are very good, even DCNS proposed some change for P75I program, but if IN is looking for submarines with BrahMos & Nirbhays, can Scorpenes accommodate these missiles?
If Scorpenes can accommodate BrahMos, then cancel P75I & get 10-12 Scorpenes with BrahMos & AIP.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Recently DM MP announced that expertise gained in building Scorpenes won't be wasted, there will be more orders of Scorpenes that is sure.
In 90s we had more than 20 submarines & now effectively we have only one submarines (Chakra) which will be active beyond 2025 & everyone knows our plan in 2000 was to have 12 SSKs by now also 6 SSNs, 6SSBNs for 2030 but now we can say our economy & roll has changed as China has 50 SSKs so IN may be looking for about 20 SSKs do we want all the SSKs of only Scorpene class?
Well I don't know, if you know please tell me.

I know Scorpenes are very good, even DCNS proposed some change for P75I program, but if IN is looking for submarines with BrahMos & Nirbhays, can Scorpenes accommodate these missiles?
If Scorpenes can accommodate BrahMos, then cancel P75I & get 10-12 Scorpenes with BrahMos & AIP.

Mini Brahmos is proposed to be fired from torpedo tubes. So definitely they can be fired from Scorpene though i am not very sure about current version of Brahmos.

 

[bengalraider]

I still think Upgraded KILOS capable of launching Klubs are good enough for our needs till 2030, neither the Chinese nor the Pakistanis shall operate anything much better in the IOR in the interim. We need to think about developing our own SSK without compromising on numerical superiority and buying more KILOS and Scorpene while upgrading older KILOS is the best way to do that.
My plan is simply to extend the scorpenes line to ten boats while buying 20 kilos off the shelf by scrapping P75I. While simultaneously upgrading eight older kilos. We can continue on a 15 yr plan to develop our SSK from this year.this SSK should be ready for mass production by 2030 latest.

By 2025 our fleet should be at least 44 boats strong with
26-28 kilos
10 scorpenes
1-2 akula
4 Arihant
2 indigenous SSN

By 2035 we should have
20 kilos
10 scorpenes
6 indigenous SSN
4 Arihant
4 Arihant follow on class SSBN
6-8 Indigenous SSN
6 Indigenous SSK

I.e. 56 submarines!

In our overtly zealous pursuit of gold plated greatness we forget that numbers are often the great leveller.

 

[tharun]

I still think Upgraded KILOS capable of launching Klubs are good enough for our needs till 2030, neither the Chinese nor the Pakistanis shall operate anything much better in the IOR in the interim. We need to think about developing our own SSK without compromising on numerical superiority and buying more KILOS and Scorpene while upgrading older KILOS is the best way to do that.
My plan is simply to extend the scorpenes line to ten boats while buying 20 kilos off the shelf by scrapping P75I. While simultaneously upgrading eight older kilos. We can continue on a 15 yr plan to develop our SSK from this year.this SSK should be ready for mass production by 2030 latest.

By 2025 our fleet should be at least 44 boats strong with
26-28 kilos
10 scorpenes
1-2 akula
4 Arihant
2 indigenous SSN

By 2035 we should have
20 kilos
10 scorpenes
6 indigenous SSN
4 Arihant
4 Arihant follow on class SSBN
6-8 Indigenous SSN
6 Indigenous SSK

I.e. 56 submarines!

In our overtly zealous pursuit of gold plated greatness we forget that numbers are often the great leveller.

This was a nice plan, but do kilo subs have AIP... because with no AIP 20 kilos are use less

 

[HariPrasad-1]

This was a nice plan, but do kilo subs have AIP... because with no AIP 20 kilos are use less

India do not have any sub with AIP right now. The important question to be asked is whether the normal Subs can be converted into AIP when the technology is available.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think P75i are subs with DRDO developed aip. India would definitely want cruise missile firing capability in these subs probably longer range, than what is possible with brahmos.

 

[tharun]

I think we should scrap or modify P-75I...
We can get 16 submarines for $8 Billion with AIP

 

[garg_bharat]

How?

I think we should scrap or modify P-75I...
We can get 16 submarines for $8 Billion with AIP

How? Can you give details of this proposal?