IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[BON PLAN]

The next 90 odd rafales, if ordered, will be mostly produced in house by HAL just like they did with Sukhoi, no argument can be made with that, and Dassault wouldn't have any problem with that, because, by that time, they'd already have started a joint venture in India, this would be great more so for France, as the production cost would be less and they would earn much more profit.
Don't forget that they already are helping GTRE realize an uprated kaveri.

Excuse me, but I don't agree.
So far Dassault has made a JV with Reliance, not with HAL.
HAL has a bad reputation : Boeing stopped to give them door to produce due to quality problem. Delay is also a problem.

It's not Dassault that work with GTRE. It's SAFRAN.
I think HAL already has too much work to do not to want another program.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Excuse me, but I don't agree.
So far Dassault has made a JV with Reliance, not with HAL.
HAL has a bad reputation : Boeing stopped to give them door to produce due to quality problem. Delay is also a problem.

It's not Dassault that work with GTRE. It's SAFRAN.
I think HAL already has too much work to do not to want another program.

Sir, Boeing and GE are supporting HAL. That's all I know.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The HAL local company was not choiced by Dassault. It was because HAL is not serious enough (to be polite) and the pressure on Dassault to assume the warranty of products not made by a Partner in which it trust that closed the MMRCA.

HAL produced both SU-30MKI and BAE HAWK are gauranteed by their respective OEMs. So please spare me with rants about HAL.

Don't imagine Dassault will give you all its know how just for 36 planes ! for 300 OK, but not 36. The Dassault skill is the result of 70 years of improvements. It costs far more than 36 Rafale.

Don't give us the technology in the way and amount we want then why buy from France only? There are many vendors.

And BTW we just bought our last fighter jet from France. From AMCA onwards their is less likelihood of any more purchase.

And to sum up and not make this a Rafale thread let me bring back the original point. Which was about DRDO developed AIP. For that I just wanna say when it comes to naval products success from DRDO comes thick and fast. And just like Rafale, Scorpene SSKs are also last. And after P-75I ( which by accounts won't be a French design) we will start building our own SSKs simultaneously at two shipyards; one is Mazhgaon Docks LTD and another will be one which will build P-75I.

 

[republic_roi97]

So far Dassault has made a JV with Reliance, not with HAL.
HAL has a bad reputation : Boeing stopped to give them door to produce due to quality problem. Delay is also a problem.

We'll see about that, more orders would only follow if Dassault builts them in India, doesn't matter if they give production to HAL or to Reliance, just like your scorpene are being made in India.
Don't be all cocky about the Dassault reputation, they don't have any better reputation than DCNS has, Boeing and Lockheed are already wanting to start production of F-16/F-18 in India, If you don't believe me, there are threads of F/A-18 and F-16, plenty of news posted by @WolfPack86 .

And yes DRDO has a very good track record when it works for NAVY, and AIP would be ready on time.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sir, Boeing and GE are supporting HAL. That's all I know.

Boeing stopped the supply of doors for liners because of quality issues. It's all I know.

 

[BON PLAN]

Don't give us the technology in the way and amount we want then why buy from France only? There are many vendors.

Maybe for just two reasons :
1) Rafale is the best of it's class (its class = all the competitors of MMRCA, and even more (*) ).
2) France is a strong and reliable ally. Remember Kargil. And ask the Egyptians and UAE what they think about how US forced them not to use their F16.

(*) : Even if MMRCA is closed, Rafale emerged as L1. As it was in Switzerland and in Korea.....

 

[BON PLAN]

We'll see about that, more orders would only follow if Dassault builts them in India, doesn't matter if they give production to HAL or to Reliance, just like your scorpene are being made in India.

You're right.
And, according to a retired high rank from Dassault, India is to received a proposal for 90 rafale in MII .

Trappier said some months ago that the contract for the (first) 36 was only the first plate. Main courses was the MII.

 

[republic_roi97]

Maybe for just two reasons :
1) Rafale is the best of it's class (its class = all the competitors of MMRCA, and even more (*) ).
2) France is a strong and reliable ally. Remember Kargil. And ask the Egyptians and UAE what they think about how US forced them not to use their F16.

(*) : Even if MMRCA is closed, Rafale emerged as L1. As it was in Switzerland and in Korea.....

You're right.
And, according to a retired high rank from Dassault, India is to received a proposal for 90 rafale in MII .

Trappier said some months ago that the contract for the (first) 36 was only the first plate. Main courses was the MII.

It is true that France is a reliable ally and probably Rafale is the best MMRCA on the plate right now. I fully agree to that,

90 more Rafales would seem like a logical choice, considering we already bought 36 and original need was of 126 MMRCA, plus, going with americans would also annoy russians.

Not just that, for France, production in India, would mean a lot of profit, not just for Rafales but for other equipments as well, they would free a lot of burden.

Coming to Scorpene, we'll have to see if GOI would like to go with 3 more Scorpene exclusive of P75I or not, considering that India just had more than $50 billion profit by demonetization. For me, I think they should go with it and finalize P75I too,
The more we make, the more we'll learn and the more we can put into our SSN project.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Maybe for just two reasons :
1) Rafale is the best of it's class (its class = all the competitors of MMRCA, and even more (*) ).

That's what every other vendor say that their's is the best. Anyway I am not arguing if Rafale is best or not. Certainly it is for France because it can be and will be regularly updated. But can I say for IAF? Answer is no. IAF can not update its fleet of Rafale regularly and will always be dependent on time consuming and pricy tendering for upgradation which will only go to Rafale. In the world where a contemporary avionics becomes obsolete in just 4-6 years the IAF will either negociate a deal with Dassult every 5 years or have to operate with a compromised fighter. This when coupled with the fact that main enemy of IAF is PLAAF; operating local made fighters which it is able to keep fighting fit with regular updation, the IAF will end up wasting so much of tax payer's money for nothing and compromising nation security.

Sorry, for IAF, what's best for you isn't necessarily best for it as well. Like to repeat, in absence of necessary ToT, Rafale fleet of IAF will become obsolete in no time.

2) France is a strong and reliable ally. Remember Kargil. And ask the Egyptians and UAE what they think about how US forced them not to use their F16.

(*) : Even if MMRCA is closed, Rafale emerged as L1. As it was in Switzerland and in Korea.....

Unlike USA in today's time.

Against Pakistan USA may not allow us to use their OEM's fighter be it any. But it will also not allow Pakistan to use F-16s against us. And without F-16s what is PAF?

When against China we will get more than eye can see, that's for sure. It's obvious isn't it?

In today's world where a network of systems matters not just a system ( no matter how astronomical best it might be) you need a system which can marry itself with the rest. Something in absence of significant ToT won't be possible. So if we have to settle with lesser ToT in anycase then it's better to look for other gains like strategic and not settle looking for more technical.

 

[BON PLAN]

That's what every other vendor say that their's is the best. Anyway I am not arguing if Rafale is best or not. Certainly it is for France because it can be and will be regularly updated. But can I say for IAF? Answer is no. IAF can not update its fleet of Rafale regularly and will always be dependent on time consuming and pricy tendering for upgradation which will only go to Rafale. In the world where a contemporary avionics becomes obsolete in just 4-6 years the IAF will either negociate a deal with Dassult every 5 years or have to operate with a compromised fighter. This when coupled with the fact that main enemy of IAF is PLAAF; operating local made fighters which it is able to keep fighting fit with regular updation, the IAF will end up wasting so much of tax payer's money for nothing and compromising nation security.

Astra is to be integrated, as some dedicated quipment. I'm sure india will have the code so as to adapt locally Spectra and maybe the radar. You will be able to adapt the plane.

Your Mirage 2000 are old, but always on top.
Rafale is made of the same wood.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Astra is to be integrated, as some dedicated quipment. I'm sure india will have the code so as to adapt locally Spectra and maybe the radar. You will be able to adapt the plane.

Your Mirage 2000 are old, but always on top.
Rafale is made of the same wood.

Now a days most of the aircraft features open architecture and most of the weapons just integrates in plug and play mode with pylon interface. That's not the question. By ToT I mean source code for AESA radar and SPECTRA for not just updating their mission files but also upgrading them with locally developed softwares whenever found necessary.

The threat scenarios changes quickly and IAF's foreseeable threats are way complex that those of French. We need custom build systems to defeat an enemy as complex as China or atleast defend us against them. In absence of complete ToT we will end up doing just what we did with Mirage-2000; a torturously long negotiation for just avionics upgrade. And BTW Mirage 2000 belongs to an era when fighter jets were a standalone system, today we live in an era of electronic warfare and fighter jets are just a part in a complex network. Today need of real TOT is much higher than it ever was.

 

[prateikf]

Guys we need to stick to the topic. This is a thread for Scorpene submarine discussion only and not for Rafale, HAL, Boeing, Mirage-2000 etc discussions .

Any update on the torpedo issue for the new scorpene submarines?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Guys we need to stick to the topic. This is a thread for Scorpene submarine discussion only and not for Rafale, HAL, Boeing, Mirage-2000 etc discussions .

Any update on the torpedo issue for the new scorpene submarines?

Yeah you are right. I am getting tired getting over this Rafale example being used. Though it came out in connection for supporting a point that DRDO will have its AIP ready in or around due time. And that DRDO's performance when working with NAVY yields results of different magnitude wrt. other two services. There are many examples to support this. Hence no one can come out and say that DRDO AIP is just a story being cooked by India to gain greater bargain on French MESMA. @BON PLAN

 

[jadoogar]

AIP is not that hard to implement. Go to any AIChE (American institute of chemical engineers) annual meeting and there are lots of papers on fuel cell systems - also lots of published academic work. If there are people genuinely working on AIP in India then I am confident that they will succeed.

 

[BON PLAN]

By ToT I mean source code for AESA radar and SPECTRA for not just updating their mission files but also upgrading them with locally developed softwares whenever found necessary.

Yes, it is what I think.
Probably you will not have access to the pure internal code of the system (as a software developper doesn't have and don't need access to the internal code of the Intel I5 core of it's computer) of fly by wire, Spectra and Radar, but you will be able to add your own spec soft in the Radar (to developp or adapt a mode) or Spectra (to adapt it to new threat, or modifying how the system answer to a threat...)

 

[BON PLAN]

The threat scenarios changes quickly and IAF's foreseeable threats are way complex that those of French. We need custom build systems to defeat an enemy as complex as China or atleast defend us against them. In absence of complete ToT we will end up doing just what we did with Mirage-2000; a torturously long negotiation for just avionics upgrade. And BTW Mirage 2000 belongs to an era when fighter jets were a standalone system, today we live in an era of electronic warfare and fighter jets are just a part in a complex network. Today need of real TOT is much higher than it ever was.

Mirage 2000 was sell without ToT. You were totally dependant of the french team to evolved the plane (but I'm sure Israel has the skill to modify it... as it did with Mirage 3)

Rafale deal includes a 50% offset. Offset doesn't mean you will have access to all the files and drawings and spec of all the components of Rafale ! But be sure India has requested that some sensible parts be in opened architecture so as to be independant. We could imagine India gain the right and tools to integrate new weapons...

 

[BON PLAN]

Yeah you are right. I am getting tired getting over this Rafale example being used. Though it came out in connection for supporting a point that DRDO will have its AIP ready in or around due time. And that DRDO's performance when working with NAVY yields results of different magnitude wrt. other two services. There are many examples to support this. Hence no one can come out and say that DRDO AIP is just a story being cooked by India to gain greater bargain on French MESMA. @BON PLAN

It's possible.
The fact is that the indian AIP program status is not really known. If it's like the Tejas story, you will have to wait a while.

 

[Pulkit]

It's possible.
The fact is that the indian AIP program status is not really known. If it's like the Tejas story, you will have to wait a while.

Agreed we cannot say anything on it as DRDO is the one working on it..... No Work Ethics and feeling of professionalism in most.

But there is a difference when you compare it with Tejas.....

For Tejas it was IAF and for AIP its Navy.... That's Sufficient to trust/believe that we will get AIP....

 

[BON PLAN]

Agreed we cannot say anything on it as DRDO is the one working on it..... No Work Ethics and feeling of professionalism in most.

But there is a difference when you compare it with Tejas.....

For Tejas it was IAF and for AIP its Navy.... That's Sufficient to trust/believe that we will get AIP....

I wish you (india) to succeed.

 

[Pulkit]

I wish you (india) to succeed.

Thanks India will achieve what it aims for......Definitely....