Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[asianobserve]

Not really because IR sensors can pick it up at BVR ranges. The F-22 does not have very good thermal reduction. A BVRAAM like IR Mica would be plenty to take it out at range.

That video appears to be a BFM exercise were both F-22 and Rafale started at WVR. In that kind of exercise pilot skills is the most important factor. According to discussions by fighter pilots (I don't know if current or former) it would appear that the F-22 pilot committed an error there. But notice how the Rafale radar keeps on losing the F-22 even in WVR.

Anyway, according to some sources the Rafale did not win in that exercise as the F-22 dominate it. In the video you posted it is doubtful if the Rafale was able to generate a gun solution against the F-22 since the F-22 were only in front of the Rafale for split seconds. But then again it was a WVR exercise were pilot skills and luck have more weight on the outcome than technology, except perhaps HMCS (which both F-22 and Rafale lack).

But in a real life scenario, the Rafale will be killed before it gets into WVR of F-22.

 

[Armand2REP]

That video appears to be a BFM exercise were both F-22 and Rafale started at WVR. In that kind of exercise pilot skills is the most important factor. According to discussions by fighter pilots (I don't know if current or former) it would appear that the F-22 pilot committed an error there. But notice how the Rafale radar keeps on losing the F-22 even in WVR.

That video was taken at Farnborough air show. No Rafale or BFM was conducted.

Anyway, according to some sources the Rafale did not win in that exercise as the F-22 dominate it. In the video you posted it is doubtful if the Rafale was able to generate a gun solution against the F-22 since the F-22 were only in front of the Rafale for split seconds. But then again it was a WVR exercise were pilot skills and luck have more weight on the outcome than technology, except perhaps HMCS (which both F-22 and Rafale lack).

Anyway, you didn't watch this video and apparently referencing the earlier video of Rafale double Fox 2.

But in a real life scenario, the Rafale will be killed before it gets into WVR of F-22.

IR Mica has 50km no-escape zone and 70km max, FSO can detect F-22 at that range and greater. It is questionable if the dated radar of F-22 can pick up Rafale at 70km+ range to get a first shot.

 

[Sancho]

Gripen E delivery schedule on target, says Saab boss20 FEBRUARY, 2018

Saab remains on track to deliver the first series production examples of its Gripen E in the third quarter of next year, and is also hopeful of concluding delayed sales of new-build C/D-model examples during 2018.

"We will stick according to the plan and deliver the first two aircraft to the Brazilian air force and Swedish air force next year," says Saab chief executive Håkan Buskhe. "Things are going according to plan," he said while discussing the company's financial results for 2017 on 16 February.

"Test and evaluation of the first [prototype] aircraft is going extremely well. We are getting better-standard data than we had anticipated," Buskhe says. A second prototype will join its fleet by the end of this year.

More at:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ery-schedule-on-target-says-saab-boss-446054/

 

[Flame Thrower]

AMCA wouldn't detect a J20 any sooner than any MMRCA, since the technologies to detect it are the same and as limited (IRST, AESA, RWR). That means the only counter to stealth are advanced AWACS in high numbers, as well as improvements of ground radars and EO and EW sensors. The more powerful the sensor, the earlier can a stealth fighter be detected and a GaN based AWACS would beat any fighter radar in detction capability.

Wrong, if you can detect it, the engagement is the same, no matter of you have a 4.5th or a 5th gen fighter.

People always confuse at this point.

4.5/5 the gen detecting other 5th Gen is same, but 5th gen would be detecting 4.5 gen way long ago(assuming there are no AWACS, but then again given anti awacs missiles, we can hardly hope AWACS survive till the end of the war)

there is 4 steps i.e. detection, tracking, engaging (firing missile) and kill. By detecting first, you'd(and your wingman) be able to place yourself in a better position.
You track and engage your enemy. Enemy also has all sorts of Jamming mechanisms to evade the incoming missiles.

The way I see it, from 90's Jamming tech has improved more than radar tech. Till date all missiles are PESA guided and K-77 is the only work on active aesa(GaAS). It is more likely for a 4.5/5th gen to escape the initial salvo of missiles. As they get closer(maybe less than 70-80km) situation might go in the favor of who has better EW systems (who can jam enemy radar and create false signals). If they both survive this range then it comes down to better WWR missiles and lastly to good old guns.

Note: the fighters would be closing against each other at 500-750 mts per sec.

Assuming first salvo(2 missiles for better chances if enemy tries to evade using maneuverability) tired around 110-130 km. Second salvo will be around 70-80 km. 3rd will be in WWR. If everything fails, then we'll be back to good old guns

 

[Flame Thrower]

That video was taken at Farnborough air show. No Rafale or BFM was conducted.



Anyway, you didn't watch this video and apparently referencing the earlier video of Rafale double Fox 2.



IR Mica has 50km no-escape zone and 70km max, FSO can detect F-22 at that range and greater. It is questionable if the dated radar of F-22 can pick up Rafale at 70km+ range to get a first shot.

I remember reading that NEZ of a missile would be somewhere around 50-66% of it's total range(assuming it's sensors are not jammed). Would you backup your claims with sources(not videos, but official broucher explaining the same) on FSO and IR Mica missile!?

I remember reading about OLS 35, where the author states that thermal imaging systems are inheritantly limited by the chips available(low band IR wavelength).

Though west uses (mid band IR wavelength) which provided much clear picture against warmer backgrounds. When flying at 30k feet or more, the temperature is very low and Russian equipment (low band IR) would hold itself against western counterpart but fails when it has to give IR picture of ground targets.

I am not a techie, but please correct me if I had misunderstood something

 

[Armand2REP]

I remember reading that NEZ of a missile would be somewhere around 50-66% of it's total range(assuming it's sensors are not jammed). Would you backup your claims with sources(not videos, but official broucher explaining the same) on FSO and IR Mica missile!?

I remember reading about OLS 35, where the author states that thermal imaging systems are inheritantly limited by the chips available(low band IR wavelength).

Though west uses (mid band IR wavelength) which provided much clear picture against warmer backgrounds. When flying at 30k feet or more, the temperature is very low and Russian equipment (low band IR) would hold itself against western counterpart but fails when it has to give IR picture of ground targets.

I am not a techie, but please correct me if I had misunderstood something

The way the French state its anti-air range is powered flight or as MBDA advertises it "no escape zone."

 

[Sancho]

4.5/5 the gen detecting other 5th Gen is same

And that was the the point! Not when they are detecting each other.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-113#post-1407413

 

[Armand2REP]

Single Engine requirement scrapped

Companies that participated in the now scrapped Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) project will be invited. The MMRCA project for 126 jets did not fructify and the government, in April 2015, announced the move to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from French major Dassault. The MoD and the IAF will keep its options open and not restrict itself to say a “single engine” fighter jet, sources have told The Tribune. The option will be to get a “fighter jet” and it will not specify the number of engines as that then restricts the options.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-to-again-scout-for-global-players-for-jets/547826.html

 

[Babloo Singh]

Single Engine requirement scrapped

Companies that participated in the now scrapped Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) project will be invited. The MMRCA project for 126 jets did not fructify and the government, in April 2015, announced the move to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from French major Dassault. The MoD and the IAF will keep its options open and not restrict itself to say a “single engine” fighter jet, sources have told The Tribune. The option will be to get a “fighter jet” and it will not specify the number of engines as that then restricts the options.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-to-again-scout-for-global-players-for-jets/547826.html

"Laut ke Buddhu Ghar Ko aaye"
So back to square one, the status before MMRCA.....
There is simple solution to our current situation..... Buy used Miraj 2000's from France or Taiwan, 40-60 units will give us cover against any capability shortfall for next 10-15 years. These aircraft's can come in just few months and we have all the training and capability to use them.
This will close the doors for all the foreign dalals & corrupt MOD & IAF guys... then focus on Tejas MK1A & MK2
and AMCA and get them going in next 10 years.

 

[Armand2REP]

"Laut ke Buddhu Ghar Ko aaye"
So back to square one, the status before MMRCA.....
There is simple solution to our current situation..... Buy used Miraj 2000's from France or Taiwan, 40-60 units will give us cover against any capability shortfall for next 10-15 years. These aircraft's can come in just few months and we have all the training and capability to use them.
This will close the doors for all the foreign dalals & corrupt MOD & IAF guys... then focus on Tejas MK1A & MK2
and AMCA and get them going in next 10 years.

Tejas is going forward as the single engine fighter of IAF and hundreds will be produced. As originally planned more Rafale will be procured and this news opens us up for that. Like we offered to Belgium the deal can include ground floor access to the Franco-German stealth fighter project.

 

[Adioz]

Single Engine requirement scrapped

Companies that participated in the now scrapped Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) project will be invited. The MMRCA project for 126 jets did not fructify and the government, in April 2015, announced the move to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from French major Dassault. The MoD and the IAF will keep its options open and not restrict itself to say a “single engine” fighter jet, sources have told The Tribune. The option will be to get a “fighter jet” and it will not specify the number of engines as that then restricts the options.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-to-again-scout-for-global-players-for-jets/547826.html

I don't know what to think anymore. If this is a carrot so that French deliver Kaveri promise and we buy more Rafale from them, its cool.
If its another attempt to get a new type of fighter into the IAF, I think MoD deserves a slap.

IAF should not plan on having more than 4-5 types of fighters in service post-2030. We already have Tejas, AMCA, Su-30 MKI and Rafale. Its either Su-57, or another MMRCA fighter. Given that IAF envisages AMCA as primarily a attack aircraft, Su-57 becomes almost essential to fill the "5th gen heavy fighter in an air dominance role" requirement. But the IAF requirements can and should change, they need to rationalize their requirements. They need to have clear priorities, not a muddle of "we will take whatever we like".

more Rafale will be procured

Not so fast. First deliver on Kaveri. Then we talk about more Rafale.

 

[Sancho]

"Laut ke Buddhu Ghar Ko aaye"
So back to square one, the status before MMRCA.....
There is simple solution to our current situation..... Buy used Miraj 2000's from France or Taiwan, 40-60 units will give us cover against any capability shortfall for next 10-15 years.

These fighters are not on offer, France itself reduced it's initial Rafale order plan and keeps the operationally more cost-effective M2Ks as well. Not to mention that it's even more limited in upgrades than the F16 or Mig 35.
It would had been a good stop gap in the early 2000s, but not today.

 

[Sancho]

Like we offered to Belgium the deal can include ground floor access to the Franco-German stealth fighter project.

France offered participation in a programme that is started by Airbus Germany and Spain. :biggrin2:

 

[Armand2REP]

France offered participation in a programme that is started by Airbus Germany and Spain. :biggrin2:

Negative, it is started by the French and German governments. The lead contractor has yet to be selected. Airbus has not even been awarded a study contract. Even if it was, Airbus is headquartered in France where 50% of its employees are located. Spain has nothing to do with the future fighter unless they sign on to it, which I hope they and many more will do.

 

[Sancho]

Negative, it is started by the French and German governments.

Wrong, Airbus German and Spain started it some years ago as a study to replace Tornados and F18 Hornets. The same proposal is now on the table as EF/Rafale replacement.

 

[Armand2REP]

Wrong, Airbus German and Spain started it some years ago as a study to replace Tornados and F18 Hornets. The same proposal is now on the table as EF/Rafale replacement.

That was between Germany and Spain and it went to nothing. There is a new agreement between Germany and France which is signed. Proposals don't mean anything, signed contracts do.

 

[Sancho]

That was between Germany and Spain and it went to nothing.

Wrong again, since there was only an Airbus proposal and no government agreement.

 

[Armand2REP]

Wrong again, since there was only an Airbus proposal and no government agreement.

Which means what exactly? Oh that's right.... NOTHING.

 

[Vinod DX9]

SEF contest is scrpped...new tender to be issued

 

[WolfPack86]

It's seems like govt floating fighter jet tender contest yet again. This time all the fighter jets will part in the competition.