Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[lcafanboy]

I Hope they are Buying for Navy .

and If they real want to Buy rafales then why they did not admit it ?

Manohar Parikar ne Bola tha ki Ye luxary hai .................we can not afford it .

For Navy Dassault will have to demonstrate folding wings for Rafales as current Rafales do not fit in lifts of INS Vikramaditya or Vikrant. They are working on it.

 

[scatterStorm]

that be cheap too......26 countries are maintaining without any compalient...

In system engineering (subdomain of EC and CSE) there is a concept of encapsulation and abstraction of critical technology and its data. Thus it's a black box with information being fed at one end, and only thing you would know is the output.

Since avionics would be purchased under closed guarded hawks(Congress) and USAF what we are buying is a black box, that would be radars, sensors, EW systems etc.

Thus we don't have much leverage in terms of knowing many critcal tech onboard, which makes this deal to me somewhat hasty and have chances to mess up badly. For example the engines from GE is a must buy as per contract, but they won't share metturgical tech etc so that our indigenous Kaveri program progresses, thus all the balls are now in the court of SNECMA consulting. Further you can't fit F16s with kaveries as the avionics won't function (black box designed in such a way that it won't accept any other engine tech).


This deal is just the need of the hour, but we will continue milking the cow by buying GE engines. It's just screwdriving work essentially.

Damn what was IAF thinking, the opportunity cost is damn high, we are just getting to know the production facility and training our men to fit bolts a bit better. This deal is vamperic Period

 

[scatterStorm]

yes they do. that's why there was a availability clause in Rafale deal. 28 is not bad given we have 33 in hand. i will be happy with that percentage if we had 42-44 Squad Nice U have a friend in IAF . I know a few in Army and Navy.
Ex defense personal tell me that Tejas is fit to be the Work Horse but they have certain reservations aswell in terms of numbers.
In current form they want not more than 20.
Tejas HAL upgraded they suggested a number close to 80.
Then Tejas Mk2 close to 120.

Total 220 Tejas.

I am not saying Tejas is BS, even though I have to digest of what my friend said. I've been advocating Tejas on this forum and I am hopeful that even at 28 squadrons we can put a great fight but we must accept that whatever IAF is thinking with this deal, it's just plain bad.

 

[scatterStorm]

@Tarun Kumar well said. My biggest concern with this deal is the opaqueness of the whole thing. More than the airframe it's the "lifecycle support" and the weapons that's the real killer.

This is why we are full of Roosi maal, that has apparently inexpensive "upfront" costs, but then we find ourselves getting stuffed on spares and weapons etc. From Mig-21s to T-90s, the story has been the same.

This is not to say that Amreeki maal is that much better- a host of alphabet soup MAA-BEHAN agreements, no sharing of technology on really critical equipment and of course the killer EULA etc.

When will we realise that self-reliance is the only way to go.

Self reliance also comes at a cost, the cost to which we must understand how to churn birds much faster and build them better, this is only going to happen if we learn some development of good production facility. Like I already mentioned, it's the hour of the need. We can't help much on this, there are trade offs, but this whole deal seems to me is done hastily.

 

[tharun]

Latest Institutional Investor meet held with DRAL folks as part of the company meet

View attachment 16959

Clearly state 18 fighters per annum. Want more proofs.

Can you provide me the whole PDF or any material regarding that event.
8 billion rupees means 110-125$ million

 

[square]

Can you provide me the whole PDF or any material regarding that event.
8 billion rupees means 110-125$ million

thats the cost of s rafale when make by reliance....
in contrast tejas cost only 35-40 m$.......that could be another reason for so much ( paid)articles/blogs bashing the lca.......if lca takes off , all others will fall....huge money at stack...

 

[Akshay Fenix]

thats the cost of s rafale when make by reliance....
in contrast tejas cost only 35-40 m$.......that could be another reason for so much ( paid)articles/blogs bashing the lca.......if lca takes off , all others will fall....huge money at stack...

Ahem. You comparing Rafale with Tejas. Seriously?

Our own incompetence is stopping Tejas from taking off.

 

[square]

Ahem. You comparing Rafale with Tejas. Seriously?

Our own incompetence is stopping Tejas from taking off.

tejas is flying......

its in the imagination of people on social media lnly that its yet to take off......

 

[Akshay Fenix]

tejas is flying......

its in the imagination of people on social media lnly that its yet to take off......

Yeah a plane whose 41% of the components are imported surely is flying, but at what cost.
Tejas MK1A is something to be proud of but its still 2 years away.

 

[lcafanboy]

thats the cost of s rafale when make by reliance....
in contrast tejas cost only 35-40 m$.......that could be another reason for so much ( paid)articles/blogs bashing the lca.......if lca takes off , all others will fall....huge money at stack...

Sure,. Does this 35-40 m3dollar LCA Tejas have AESA, sensor fusion, advance 5th gen composite materials, CFT, electronic warfare suite spectra which provides stealth capabilities, lifts 9.5 tons payload and the range Rafales have.

Add these and one more engine to LCA and see what the fly away cost is and then do the comparison.

I am sure you will get very near to the fly away cost of Rafales. Cheers.

 

[square]

Sure,. Does this 35-40 m3dollar LCA Tejas have AESA, sensor fusion, advance 5th gen composite materials, CFT, electronic warfare suite spectra which provides stealth capabilities, lifts 9.5 tons payload and the range Rafales have.

Add these and one more engine to LCA and see what the fly away cost is and then do the comparison.

I am sure you will get very near to the fly away cost of Rafales. Cheers.

other then payload and range...........yes !!!...

 

[square]

Yeah a plane whose 41% of the components are imported surely is flying, but at what cost.
Tejas MK1A is something to be proud of but its still 2 years away.

who much % of imported components does rafale has....? presently it 100% untill reliance start making few of its part......

if tejas is 2 years away to make a full squad , how far rafale has ?......minimum 5 years.....

 

[Akshay Fenix]

who much % of imported components does rafale has....? presently it 100% untill reliance start making few of its part......

if tejas is 2 years away to make a full squad , how far rafale has ?......minimum 5 years.....

Without the rafale, we will never get Tejas and neither will IAF go for Tejas.
The offset from rafale deal is being used to revive the kaveri engine which inturn will go into Tejas Mk1A making it 80% indigenous (MK1A also includes Indian AESA radar which is currently in development and will be ready in 2 years). Currently it is being run on US GE engines which are expensive.

 

[airtel]

Without the rafale, we will never get Tejas and neither will IAF go for Tejas.
The offset from rafale deal is being used to revive the kaveri engine which inturn will go into Tejas Mk1A making it 80% indigenous (MK1A also includes Indian AESA radar which is currently in development and will be ready in 2 years). Currently it is being run on US GE engines which are expensive.

Both Rafale & F-16 Programs will be Used to Develop AURA & AMCA ...........without Americans & french we can not make those Jets within Given Time .

For Tejas MK-1a foreign Engines , Radar , EW suites etc are already ordered .

 

[lcafanboy]

if tejas is 2 years away to make a full squad , how far rafale has ?......minimum 5 years.....

All 36 Rafales will be delivered by 2020-21. Optional 18 by 2022-23. Dassault's capacity to build Rafale is 33 per annum which is being ramped up to full now at Mergnac add to this the 18 fighter Capacity at Napur with DRAL which will soon come up and we may be receiving fighters from both lines simultaneously.

BTW first Rafales will be landing in India next year and SQDN will be completed by 2019 end itself.

 

[airtel]

lcafanboy what technologies we will get from F-16 & predictor deal ??

 

[AnantS]

lcafanboy what technologies we will get from F-16 & predictor deal ??

screwdrivergiri.


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@Kunal Biswas : If needed, please park this post into relevant thread or spin off into another thread to track how difficult is for Indian companies to do business in defense. No wonder many shy from putting money into R&D.

 

[lcafanboy]

lcafanboy what technologies we will get from F-16 & predictor deal ??

GHANTA

F-16 buy is for political reason only, as for Predator or Guardian the technology is too sensitive and I doubt US will share anything for that. But political reasons/mileage alone could be huge.

 

[sbm]

Just for the record, any F-16/ Gripen purchase is some time off. The aim is to break the HAL monopoly with a second line. Both offers have strengths. The Block 70 includes APG-83 radar. There will not be full ToT - you will have local manufacture % by component and value. It could help create an ecosystem. Will it boost aerospace? Yes. Will it be full ToT? No. To expect that would be naive and that applies to both type under consideration.

 

[airtel]

GHANTA

F-16 buy is for political reason only, as for Predator or Guardian the technology is too sensitive and I doubt US will share anything for that. But political reasons/mileage alone could be huge.

but Americans trained our Engineer about Fly-by-wire before pokharan 2 ...............so they can share some More technologies too .