IAF Mirage 2000

[Flying Dagger]

Do you know how cheap a MiG-29 upgrade is for the VVS? Apparently not...

Mig 29 UPG is the most advanced variant of Mig 29 similar to Mig 35.

We got new engines avionics etc for 69 jets at less than 900 million dollar . So for approx 15 mn we get that. Russia offered the same upgrade for same price from Russia with no involvement of HAL too.

The Question is HAL did Mig 29 upgrade in house while for Mirage 2000 they got complete kits from France.

In any case one thing is clear Mirage deal was sham.

But you believe that HAL is responsible ...

So you are saying HAL charged 25+ million dollar as man hour costs ?

How is manpower cost relevant while discussing cost overruns in India?
Average salary in core engineering jobs is about 1/3 that of France, so even if 3xhours are required to do the same job as compared to France, cost should remain the same?
What am i missing ....

Well it's not 1/3rd but much lesser.

Let's say a French is paid 40 Euro per hour

We will bill our engineer at 20 - 30 depending on seniority and experience for a concession job etc. There are thousands of engineers working for RR GE etc down south.

But when a proposal is provided like for upgrade. Then the French must have put forth the man hours they use and cost. And sales team of HAL will calculate manhours required by them + facility /inventory cost and deduct from the French manhours

The remaining will be profit or loss. Depending on that they will make their sales pitch for amount of manhour cost . Since here the job is assured they simply convey the manhour they will charge.

But one thing one must understand same HAL did more extensive job on Mig 29 with 2 new engines under license. And the total cost of upgrade was less than 15 million dollar . Even if they charge 30-40% cost at max 3 million or 4 million for the job.

Then How will it turn out to be 25+ million dollar more from the mirage upgrade charged at 18 million ( Euro or Dollar ) by French airforce ?

It's a complete BS argument .

and forget HAL even former RM told that in his book that cost of spare parts etc for Mirage 2000 is highest among other aircraft in IAF inventory.

A BAE hawk built in India cost around 15 million dollar today. Wh

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

French goods are overpriced. Thats the cost you pay for having no threads attached

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[Armand2REP]

French goods are overpriced. Thats the cost you pay for having no threads attached

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French goods are quality, you get what you pay for. It is always Mirage at the tip of the spear because IAF knows what they rely on in times of crisis.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

French goods are quality, you get what you pay for. It is always Mirage at the tip of the spear because IAF knows what they rely on in times of crisis.

Quality but overpriced.

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[Flying Dagger]

French goods are overpriced. Thats the cost you pay for having no threads attached

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Too much over priced for sure.

What is baffling though is people don't admit it and coming up with crazy accusation that HAL increased the price of 18 million (Euro/dollar?) upgrade by 25+ million dollar as man hour cost .

Despite the fact that they didn't even get that amount of money in contract .

I mean throw whatever shit at HAL to hide that dubious deal we had to upgrade Mirage with Dassault.

 

[Knowitall]

Extra money or losing your autonomy I think the government knew what it wanted.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Extra money or losing your autonomy I think the government knew what it wanted.

There were other option i.e. Israel That deal was vanilla corrupt.

 

[Knowitall]

There were other option i.e. Israel That deal was vanilla corrupt.

Israel dosent make jets they only make some components that's it.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Israel dosent make jets they only make some components that's it.

I am talking about upgrade deal of Mirage here.

 

[Armand2REP]

I mean throw whatever shit at HAL to hide that dubious deal we had to upgrade Mirage with Dassault.

It is HAL that is taking the shit and instead of picking them up we have to throw it right back at them.

Regarding the offered HAL upgrade of Hawk trainers...

"The benchmark price of each aircraft was around Rs 90 crore but the initial price offered by the vendors including the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was more than double," the sources said.

"In the contract negotiations, the vendors have cut down the price but even now, the price offered is more than 60 per cent of what the defence ministry is willing to pay for the planes," they said.

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...dvanced-jet-trainer-planes-1223115-2018-04-30

It is the same thing they have done to Su-30 and M2000, I don't know how much more evidence you need that HAL overcharges.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

I am talking about upgrade deal of Mirage here.

OEM upgrade works better.

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[AmoghaVarsha]

I am talking about upgrade deal of Mirage here.

OEM upgrade works better.

Sent from my HD1901 using Tapatalk

 

[Wisemarko]

Only clueless or corrupt pay $40 million per aircraft for upgrade and not get AESA (or even PESA!) in 2010s.
Sorry to say but Indians fall in that category. Autonomy and “freedom to use” etc. are garbage excuses: obviously PAF is using their F-16 as they please.
Another example: $9 million per plane to upgrade with latest AESA and F-16V level upgrade.
Lockheed Korean F-16 Upgrade Contract
By: Valerie Insinna   November 21, 2016

WASHINGTON — Lockheed Martin and the South Korean government have cemented a $1.2 billion contract for F-16 upgrades, marking an official victory for Lockheed over previous contract-holder BAE Systems.

Under the terms of the foreign military sales agreement announced Friday, Lockheed will modernize 134 jets to a configuration similar to its advanced F-16V model. Among the upgrades planned to be funneled into the Korean jets are an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; a modern commercial off-the-shelf-based avionics subsystem; a large-format, high-resolution center pedestal display; and a high-volume and high-speed data bus, the company said.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Only idiots or corrupt pay $40 million per aircraft for upgrade and not get AESA (or even PESA!)
Sorry to say but Indians fall in that category. Autonomy and freedom to use etc. are garbage excuses: obviously PAF is using their F-16 as they please.
Another example: $9 million per plane to upgrade with latest AESA and F-16V level upgrade.
Lockheed Korean F-16 Upgrade Contract
By: Valerie Insinna   November 21, 2016

WASHINGTON — Lockheed Martin and the South Korean government have cemented a $1.2 billion contract for F-16 upgrades, marking an official victory for Lockheed over previous contract-holder BAE Systems.

Under the terms of the foreign military sales agreement announced Friday, Lockheed will modernize 134 jets to a configuration similar to its advanced F-16V model. Among the upgrades planned to be funneled into the Korean jets are an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; a modern commercial off-the-shelf-based avionics subsystem; a large-format, high-resolution center pedestal display; and a high-volume and high-speed data bus, the company said.

Americans have economic might high scale of production they can even give there old aircraft carrier for cheap to the states where there influence is deep. After few years as Americans retire old F-16 it would be sold in shit cost to the so called allies.
France cannot match that level of production and economic strength so sometimes we have to make deals with pinch of salt.

 

[Flying Dagger]

It is HAL that is taking the shit and instead of picking them up we have to throw it right back at them.

Regarding the offered HAL upgrade of Hawk trainers...


It is the same thing they have done to Su-30 and M2000, I don't know how much more evidence you need that HAL overcharges.

Evidence?

Let's talk about fact.

1. Ex RM Late George Fernandes in his book revealed that the IAF spend more than double for the spare parts etc of Mirage compared to any other aircraft in inventory.

2. Taiwan faced the same issue and have said it publicly many a times

3. The article isn't about the upgrade of hawk trainers

But If you are taking about Cost of Advanced Hawk. As per the article if 90 crores (13 mn dollar ) is over 60% the price MOD wants to pay please let me know if French will provide AJT like Hawk at 6 million dollar in 2019.


4. Mirage isn't build up from raw materials by HAL like Su only upgrade is happening.

The best e.g. to compare was Mig 29 upgrade where License production of engine new radar avionics etc happened and HAL did it under 15 mn dollar.

5. HAL didn't get 42-45 million dollar per plane not even half of that .

If your 18 mn dollar/Euro whatever cost of upgrade is true then the rest amount of money went to HAL ?

That's the shit pick and throw it back at Dassault.

And coming to quality.

What's the update with flight computer of Mirage 2k earlier supplied by Dassault & co for the crashed Mirage 2k?

 

[Flying Dagger]

OEM upgrade works better.

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Nope we have been improving on Mirage 2000 since decades with Israel and integrated Russian missiles too. They were the reason mirage is still useful at a very low cost.

The original OEM charged 42-45 million dollar to do upgrade which doesn't even include an aesa or engine upgrade.

 

[asianobserve]

Only clueless or corrupt pay $40 million per aircraft for upgrade and not get AESA (or even PESA!) in 2010s.
Sorry to say but Indians fall in that category. Autonomy and “freedom to use” etc. are garbage excuses: obviously PAF is using their F-16 as they please.
Another example: $9 million per plane to upgrade with latest AESA and F-16V level upgrade.
Lockheed Korean F-16 Upgrade Contract
By: Valerie Insinna   November 21, 2016

WASHINGTON — Lockheed Martin and the South Korean government have cemented a $1.2 billion contract for F-16 upgrades, marking an official victory for Lockheed over previous contract-holder BAE Systems.

Under the terms of the foreign military sales agreement announced Friday, Lockheed will modernize 134 jets to a configuration similar to its advanced F-16V model. Among the upgrades planned to be funneled into the Korean jets are an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; a modern commercial off-the-shelf-based avionics subsystem; a large-format, high-resolution center pedestal display; and a high-volume and high-speed data bus, the company said.

As I have been saying all along this diplomatic autonomy mentality is baffling. It has setback India's development and rise for decades. Had India opened up earlier to the West then it will be richer now and in a much stronger position. I mean look at China. So without intending to demean any memory here, I say Nehru is a high-headed jack a$$ while Deng Xiaopeng is a pragmatic realist.

American weapons are the most cutting edge, cheapest for their capabilities, best maintained with professional after market service, with the widest available weapons options, with the widest and best support from US military, and US provides bigger diplimatoc and economic clout.

It's no brainer really. But I guess there are still a lot of Nehruskies in India until now.

 

[asianobserve]

For example the USN is set to retire USS Nimitz. India can negotiate for a 25-year lease while it shoulders the cost of refurbishing and refuelling it. With Nimitz India can operate either SH or Rsfale Ms with Growlers, E-2Ds and Ospreys.

(Sorry OT)

 

[Deathstar]

For example the USN is set to retire USS Nimitz. India can negotiate for a 25-year lease while it shoulders the cost of refurbishing and refuelling it. With Nimitz India can operate either SH or Rsfale Ms with Growlers, E-2Ds and Ospreys.

(Sorry OT)

Nimitz is just too huge and cost prohibitive. It will be another Admiral Gorshkov. India doesnt need mammoth 100k tonne displacement when its power projection is limited to IOR. Moreover India doesnt have any systems operated on Nimitiz , SHs , Rafale Ms , Growlers , E2Ds , Ospreys (we wanted ospreys but deal didnt move forward). Probably only SHs or Ms we might buy.
It will better for IN to go indigenous or else there will be no money left for IAC2

 

[Deathstar]

As I have been saying all along this diplomatic autonomy mentality is baffling. It has setback India's development and rise for decades. Had India opened up earlier to the West then it will be richer now and in a much stronger position. I mean look at China. So without intending to demean any memory here, I say Nehru is a high-headed jack a$$ while Deng Xiaopeng is a pragmatic realist.

American weapons are the most cutting edge, cheapest for their capabilities, best maintained with professional after market service, with the widest available weapons options, with the widest and best support from US military, and US provides bigger diplimatoc and economic clout.

It's no brainer really. But I guess there are still a lot of Nehruskies in India until now.

Right , Right. Absolutely Right. We never had a realist leader like Deng. All were pathetic ideology obsessed.