IAF Mirage 2000

[BON PLAN]

Radars don't last forever, they get replaced during the MLU.

??? I'm afraid not. M2000D will replace F1 for the african theater. They will be upgraded at the minimum possible.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

I think it's mostly historical animosity

India’s principle of “strategic autonomy” remains strong, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said, drawing an equivalence in ties with Russia, the U.S. and China and cautioning against a “return to the age of great power rivalries,” at a conference in Singapore on Friday.

President Putin and I shared our views on the need for a strong multi-polar world order for dealing with the challenges of our times” said Mr. Modi, referring to his meeting with the Russian President in Sochi last month. “At the same time, India’s global strategic partnership with the United States has overcome the hesitations of history and continues to deepen across the extraordinary breadth of our relationship,” he added


Not historical but factual. Indian government is out of alliance ideology. India's forgein minster jai shankar in 2018 on a conference with Japanese forgein diplomat that india is quite upset with Americans with there ideology of alliance and all india seeks a interdependent relationship. So it's not historical at all recent s-400 deal constant defence deals with Russia. India's quest to strength it's relationship with france to have multiple strong partners is the reality.

India's quest in building its own weapons systems is also one step in this direction. India could have bought F-35 for cheaper money than creating its own AMCA but will not do that as GOI / Army / indian experts /everyone finds using forgein systems is a limitation in case of war. Why because india is not part of alliance forces.

America will not part with nuclear tech. It's agaonst theor law. So any President who does ot can be impeached and prosecuted.

Even UK and France did not get nuke reactor tech from US after WW2 becsuse of that prohibition

Americans did supported Chinese nuclear program.
And why British nuclear subs are similar to American one's.
Four Vanguard-class submarines were designed and ... is based on the system used on the American Ohio class, ...


I will not go off topic now.

 

[Neptune]

On the other hand the Russians seems to employ literal (not metaphorical) "kill switch" on its equipments...




https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ctronic-warfare-tactics-including-radio-virus

There is no Russian “kill switch”. If that was the case Georgia would not be able to use Russian SAMs to shoot down 3 SU-25 ground attack aircraft as well as probably an SU-24 in 2006.

Ukraine just got a taste of Russian jamming and hacking in a reformed post modernized and more professional Russian military. Russia has emerged as one of the most capable and effective militaries in jamming, infecting spyware and breaking communications. They even disabled US electric warfare aircraft over Syria and jammed GPS and obviously Ukraine uses mostly outdated and obsolete equipment so that would be no problem to jam.

It baffles me why India does not approach Russia for help in this field. They could have likely jammed Pakistani F-16s and possibly AWACS to some degree on the 27th. To make things more interesting Russia has ‘sniffed out’ a lot of American aircraft and weapons over Syria so their counters to Americans weapons have straightened since 2015 considerably.

As for American kill switches, they don’t exist either. Venezuela and Iran used American fighters for some time, the only roadblock is spares and support. The US is notorious for cutting ties seemingly overnight, France is better but not much better, they embargoed Argentina against the UK during the Falkland war they are also rip off the Indians at every turn, to some extent the Russians did the same with the aircraft carrier, most other deals seemed fair though.

Back to the topic, is there any plan to have meteors on the Indian Mirage’s? As I understand it; it would not be in France’s best interest to integrate avionics and weapons from the Rafale into Mirages since that would basically be nearly pointless to buy Rafale unless it was to solely add extra squadrons.

 

[Armand2REP]

??? I'm afraid not. M2000D will replace F1 for the african theater. They will be upgraded at the minimum possible.

??? I'm afraid not...

Mais le périmètre technique comprend aussi l’adjonction d’un radar de pointe RDY3, issu du RC400 vendu à l’export par Thales. Cet ensemble radar-missile permettrait à l’avion de pouvoir opérer seul, sans protection aérienne sur un territoire basse intensité (Sahel, Djibouti,…),

https://www.european-security.org/?q=articles/2012/07/12/la-rénovation-du-mirage-2000-d

 

[Armand2REP]

Jaguar upgrade were discussed unofficially with AngloFrench too the decision to go for in house was taken later considering the cost and upgrade on offer.

Those OEM companies haven't made those parts in 15 years, there was no discussions with them to upgrade anything.

Then there was no turning back with HAL taking full control

HAL was always in full control, there was nothing to turn back on.

And comparing it with F 15 upgrade package Japan is getting would be joke on another level .

Why would we bother comparing something that HAL doesn't make to offer as a comparison to something else? To determine if HAL is innefficient we can only compare what an OEM offers to something similar to what HAL offers, such as Su-30 production or M2000 upgrades.

 

[Flying Dagger]

There is no Russian “kill switch”. If that was the case Georgia would not be able to use Russian SAMs to shoot down 3 SU-25 ground attack aircraft as well as probably an SU-24 in 2006.

Ukraine just got a taste of Russian jamming and hacking in a reformed post modernized and more professional Russian military. Russia has emerged as one of the most capable and effective militaries in jamming, infecting spyware and breaking communications. They even disabled US electric warfare aircraft over Syria and jammed GPS and obviously Ukraine uses mostly outdated and obsolete equipment so that would be no problem to jam.

It baffles me why India does not approach Russia for help in this field. They could have likely jammed Pakistani F-16s and possibly AWACS to some degree on the 27th. To make things more interesting Russia has ‘sniffed out’ a lot of American aircraft and weapons over Syria so their counters to Americans weapons have straightened since 2015 considerably.

As for American kill switches, they don’t exist either. Venezuela and Iran used American fighters for some time, the only roadblock is spares and support. The US is notorious for cutting ties seemingly overnight, France is better but not much better, they embargoed Argentina against the UK during the Falkland war they are also rip off the Indians at every turn, to some extent the Russians did the same with the aircraft carrier, most other deals seemed fair though.

Back to the topic, is there any plan to have meteors on the Indian Mirage’s? As I understand it; it would not be in France’s best interest to integrate avionics and weapons from the Rafale into Mirages since that would basically be nearly pointless to buy Rafale unless it was to solely add extra squadrons.

Nope they didn't offered AESA radar in the upgrade package and the range of current is inferior to use meteor as per MBDA and France/Dassault if i remember correctly.

Meteor would have made sense for Mirage but Astra or Derby will make in apart from from MICA NG.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Those OEM companies haven't made those parts in 15 years, there was no discussions with them to upgrade anything.

I am going 15+ years back here. Anyway
point of low cost solution by HAL is proved here w.r.t to Honeywell engine upgradation.

Why would we bother comparing something that HAL doesn't make to offer as a comparison to something else? To determine if HAL is innefficient we can only compare what an OEM offers to something similar to what HAL offers, such as Su-30 production or M2000 upgrades.

Because it's not about HAL but the price and upgrade package offered by USA to Japan w.r.t French Mirage upgrade package and it's cost to India which was more expensive than a brand new Su or Mig 29 at that time.

 

[Armand2REP]

I am going 15+ years back here. Anyway

DARIN III wasn't even a thing 15+ years back... anyways.

Because it's not about HAL but the price and upgrade package offered by USA to Japan w.r.t French Mirage upgrade package and it's cost to India which was more expensive than a brand new Su or Mig 29 at that time.

It is all about HAL because they are the ones doubling the cost of the upgrades.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

It is all about HAL because they are the ones doubling the cost of the upgrades

If hal can double the cost of tejas mk1a and confuse IAF for 2 years and then claim to the government that costs is valid because our workers do overtime or xyz. And take more man hours than West then they can claim and ask anything.

HAL had asked for Rs 463 crore ( $64.5) for the Tejas Mk-1A versus Rs 363 crore ( $50.6) for the original LCA-Tejas Mk1. Now revised price after renegotiation stands at 417 crores ($58.1) per unit cost in fly-away condition minus its weapons system

But i don't know about mirage update. But possibilities always exist with HAL.

 

[Armand2REP]

If hal can double the cost of tejas mk1a and confuse IAF for 2 years and then claim to the government that costs is valid because our workers do overtime or xyz. And take more man hours than West then they can claim and ask anything.

HAL had asked for Rs 463 crore ( $64.5) for the Tejas Mk-1A versus Rs 363 crore ( $50.6) for the original LCA-Tejas Mk1. Now revised price after renegotiation stands at 417 crores ($58.1) per unit cost in fly-away condition minus its weapons system

But i don't know about mirage update. But possibilities always exist with HAL.

You can't compare Tejas to anything else because HAL is the only one that makes it. If you have other projects they work on that are also offered by foreign OEMs to do a cost analysis I am open to the evidence. Looking at Su-30 and M2000 prices it is clear to me that HAL has a serious inefficiency problem.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

You can't compare Tejas to anything else because HAL is the only one that makes it. If you have other projects they work on that are also offered by foreign OEMs to do a cost analysis I am open to the evidence. Looking at Su-30 and M2000 prices it is clear to me that HAL has a serious inefficiency problem.

Over work management issues.
Hal tho did bhramos integration cheaper.
Everything depends on the mood of HAL and it's commie workers.
No one can pressure them.

 

[Flying Dagger]

You can't compare Tejas to anything else because HAL is the only one that makes it. If you have other projects they work on that are also offered by foreign OEMs to do a cost analysis I am open to the evidence. Looking at Su-30 and M2000 prices it is clear to me that HAL has a serious inefficiency problem.

You brought the Tejas into discussion first with dubious claim now when countered running here and there.

HAL did Mig 29 UPG upgrade too at same price Russia offers for in house upgrade of old Mig 29 it possesses that include license to build Rd 33 engines too. No escalation from HAL or Mig corp side there. It was around 15 million dollar or less per mig 29.

Looking at Su-30 and M2000 prices it is clear to me that HAL has a serious inefficiency problem.

Looking at a brand new Su or Mig 29 at that time in comparison to Mirage 2k upgrade prices it is evidently clear that the deal was a sham


HAL is slow delays stuff yes but on the cost part they offer cheap in house solution due to low manpower cost.

How will you compete 2 days of a French worker wage is more or equal to an Indian workers entire month wage. Even with 2 or 3 guys to do the same job it is still 6 -8 days wages at max. The rest is saving.

Truth is French charges exorbitant price for their stuff and they have to as they can't compete with USA on economy of scale . They have been sustaining their aerospace industry independently and perhaps the only nation in Europe which can build aircraft from scratch.

Also one must understand French use the minimum no. of working hours compared to Americans or Russians to build Rafale . Most of their process is mechanised unlike HAL.

In Short : We paid too much for too little.

Considering UPA was in power I don't have to guess where the money went ..

 

[Bhurki]

If hal can double the cost of tejas mk1a and confuse IAF for 2 years and then claim to the government that costs is valid because our workers do overtime or xyz.

How is manpower cost relevant while discussing cost overruns in India?
Average salary in core engineering jobs is about 1/3 that of France, so even if 3xhours are required to do the same job as compared to France, cost should remain the same?
What am i missing ....

 

[Assassin 2.0]

How is manpower cost relevant while discussing cost overruns in India?
Average salary in core engineering jobs is about 1/3 that of France, so even if 3xhours are required to do the same job as compared to France, cost should remain the same?
What am i missing ....

Ask this HAL this was one of there key reasons to jump up the cost of tejas.

 

[Armand2REP]

You brought the Tejas into discussion first with dubious claim now when countered running here and there.

Uhhh... no I didn't. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

HAL did Mig 29 UPG upgrade too at same price Russia offers for in house upgrade of old Mig 29 it possesses that include license to build Rd 33 engines too. No escalation from HAL or Mig corp side there. It was around 15 million dollar or less per mig 29.

Do you know how cheap a MiG-29 upgrade is for the VVS? Apparently not...

Looking at a brand new Su or Mig 29 at that time in comparison to Mirage 2k upgrade prices it is evidently clear that the deal was a sham

It is actually clear that HAL made it a sham. I just looked at the price of what RAF Hawk trainers cost and what HAL charges for it. The trends are quite clear. HAL is the problem.

 

[Bhurki]

It is actually clear that HAL made it a sham. I just looked at the price of what RAF Hawk trainers cost and what HAL charges for it. The trends are quite clear. HAL is the problem.

Where does the money go then?
HAL primary job is integration, not core production.. Almost every subsystem is license manufactured meaning low number of grey pits where money could disappear.
Unless it requires 5 times the manpower to do the same job as that by France, Russia, how can anyone explain the cost overruns..

 

[Ghost68]

On the other hand the Russians seems to employ literal (not metaphorical) "kill switch" on its equipments...




https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ctronic-warfare-tactics-including-radio-virus

In communication devices or related equipment it is entirely possible. But other hardware like tank and jets it is not possible take Iran for example still using many american aircraft and tanks using domestic spare and equipment.

 

[Armand2REP]

Where does the money go then?
HAL primary job is integration, not core production.. Almost every subsystem is license manufactured meaning low number of grey pits where money could disappear.
Unless it requires 5 times the manpower to do the same job as that by France, Russia, how can anyone explain the cost overruns..

When HAL charges a client they do so at market rates. They aren't passing the cost savings of their low paid workers on to that client. They are a publicly traded company, their job isn't to hand out welfare prices to clients, just a fair market price. That price is fair for billable hours, but the problem is the client is itself/MoD so the amount of hours they are allowed to bill the taxpayers has no limit. No one is conducting the proper oversight and sanctions to stop them from doing this. HAL has the monopoly on the government market.

 

[Bhurki]

When HAL charges a client they do so at market rates. They aren't passing the cost savings of their low paid workers on to that client. They are a publicly traded company, their job isn't to hand out welfare prices to clients, just a fair market price. That price is fair for billable hours, but the problem is the client is itself/MoD so the amount of hours they are allowed to bill the taxpayers has no limit. No one is conducting the proper oversight and sanctions to stop them from doing this. HAL has the monopoly on the market.

Seems counterintuitive.. If they make a profit, it goes back to the government. Why would they charge the government more than its required, book a profit and then pay it back.
But its actually in loss, thats whats astounding, they can't just siphon money off .

 

[Armand2REP]

Seems counterintuitive.. If they make a profit, it goes back to the government. Why would they charge the government more than its required, book a profit and then pay it back.
But its actually in loss, thats whats astounding, they can't just siphon money off .

The profit is paid out to the shareholders, some of that is government and some not. Their goal is to turn a profit but the culture they are still living in is one of not caring about profit because they are still living off of government guaranteed orders with no oversight. This is the transition they need to make to be a successful publicly traded company and not being like every other babu ministry. They need a board of directors with no ties to the government to clean house and hold the managers accountable. The MoD needs to stop single sourcing HAL and offer open tenders that other Indian companies can bid on.