HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[Defcon 1]

Utter nonsense.

Like I said there are countless modern mil projects that see concurrent development. Accepting the LCH into service now will allow HAL to stabilise production, work out any issues there may be with production and operational service ahead of the ATGM issue being addressed if the IA/IAF could look beyond their noses for a moment and see the bigger picture they would understand this. But these morons don't think like this, Indian generals are trained up as import experts, they have no idea how to create anything or support local developments. They will recite foreign brochures but have no idea of what is available in their own backyard.

No your post is nonsense. First of all you need to understand what concurrent development means. Its about development of different subsystems independently and parallely, which is already happening in case of LCH and Helina. Concurrent development never means that orders can be placed independently too. That would be stupid.
Anyways, such a long writeup is not needed. I had simply asked for the name of one foreign helicopter which has served for 6 years without ATGM. Provide that and I will shut up.

Besides, HELINA will be ready for operational deployments in the next 1-2 years, how long before the Apaches that are to be ordered in 2020 come? 3 years minimum. So even the argument that you are buying an off the shelf ready to fight solution falls flat.

I have already responded to that in post #2229. Forget 1-2 years, even if Helina is operationalized tomorrow, first few years will be spent producing it for Rudras. So LCH which are inducted in the meantime will just be good for airshows and gathering dust.

Besides Rudra (and LCH if entered into service now) still has rockets and a cannon, ATGM is the only thing outstanding.

No it doesn't. You are grossly misinformed on the topic. Contract of rocket integration was signed only in 2019 and it covers only 18 Rudras and 15 LCH. You need to read more on this topic before commenting
https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...ging-the-arming-of-indias-rudra-choppers.html

The point is, what is IA's/IAF's long term vision (do they have one or are they just drooling over foreign toys?)? If it is IBGs supported by 150++ attack helicopters (Rudras don't count) then LCH is the obvious way to get to this goal and hence needs long term support from day one. Any war that breaks out in the next 2-3 years can be handled by existing systems (Mi-35s still have some teeth) so this argument that LCH can't be accepted because it doesn't have ATGMs is so myopic to the point that I can't even comprehend how someone can actually make it.

Dude no one is saying that LCH is not needed. LCH is needed, but it is needed with ATGM, not without. Till then, better to spend money elsewhere.

Man, projects like F35, AH-46E, AH-1Z etc etc all have 100s/1000s of committed orders from the outset and Indian companies have to beg and plead for just 15 LSP models.

No they don't. You need to read up on F35 procurement. F35 has a commitment of 2400 fighters for the A variant, not orders. There is a difference. F35 orders were being placed annually by DOD, only last year, they placed a bulk order for 4 year production. I think about 400 were ordered at that time, though I think @asianobserve will be able to give the correct number. Every country commits a large number of weapons but orders it in bits and pieces only. LCH also has that commitment of 176 examples. Orders will be there too, in future. The fact is, in this case, western and Indian procurement exactly similar, but you are unable to understand it. And this is the second time I am telling you about F35 procurement. I have explained you exactly same thing in past as well. Kindly understand this before commenting further.

So by that logic what's the need for the LCH at all? Rudra is a perfect substitute for the LCH?

You have replied without understanding what I wrote. Kindly read my post again.

 

[Defcon 1]

That is true, but also depends if you believe only 6 apaches for that much for the IA is a priority as well, when most of the IA look like they're out Vietnam.

Probably yes, they could have spent the money elsewhere. But we are talking here about LCH. Amongst LCH and Apache today, Apache will always be the priority because it can be used in war whereas LCH can't.

 

[fire starter]

Probably yes, they could have spent the money elsewhere. But we are talking here about LCH. Amongst LCH and Apache today, Apache will always be the priority because it can be used in war whereas LCH can't.

what about ATAK helicopter it is also similar to LCH but it will be used in war so why can't LCH.

 

[Defcon 1]

what about ATAK helicopter it is also similar to LCH but it will be used in war so why can't LCH.

Because ATAK already has ATGM integrated. LCH doesn't. What DRDO should have done is integrate a foreign ATGM for the time being and continue HELINA development in parallel which would have allowed IAF to accept LCH in service. Don't know why it was never pursued.

 

[fire starter]

Because ATAK already has ATGM integrated. LCH doesn't. What DRDO should have done is integrate a foreign ATGM for the time being and continue HELINA development in parallel which would have allowed IAF to accept LCH in service. Don't know why it was never pursued.

both helina and sant are ready so it's just a matter of time.

 

[Chinmoy]

Because ATAK already has ATGM integrated. LCH doesn't. What DRDO should have done is integrate a foreign ATGM for the time being and continue HELINA development in parallel which would have allowed IAF to accept LCH in service. Don't know why it was never pursued.

Because IAF never wanted the Mistral to be there in LCH.

 

[Defcon 1]

Because IAF never wanted the Mistral to be there in LCH.

From what I understand, Mistral was for A2A role right? So it still would be needed since Helina can't fulfill that role.

 

[Chinmoy]

both helina and sant are ready so it's just a matter of time.

Says who?

For HELINA to be ready, NAG has to be ordered in numbers. This is not happening till now.

SANT is still undergoing developmental trials.

 

[Chinmoy]

From what I understand, Mistral was for A2A role right? So it still would be needed since Helina can't fulfill that role.

Yes. Mistral is there in Rudra. Last time i read the report, the Mistral launcher has issues when integrated to LCH. So IAF was not in favor of using it.

 

[ezsasa]

Says who?

For HELINA to be ready, NAG has to be ordered in numbers. This is not happening till now.

SANT is still undergoing developmental trials.

On a lighter note...

“Aap chronology samajhiye” meme should permanently posted on this thread.

All debates are happening devoid of chronology of current status.

 

[fire starter]

Says who?

For HELINA to be ready, NAG has to be ordered in numbers. This is not happening till now.

SANT is still undergoing developmental trials.

nag is for army (which they will never order by seeing their attitude) whereas helina is for air force so why should air force suffer because of army?

 

[Defcon 1]

Yes. Mistral is there in Rudra. Last time i read the report, the Mistral launcher has issues when integrated to LCH. So IAF was not in favor of using it.

They could have gone for spike though, or hellfire. Not pursuing this is something I don't understand. In every other weapon system, we are integrating something foreign and continuing with orders till the local alternative is ready. LCH is kind of an exception.

 

[fire starter]

Says who?

For HELINA to be ready, NAG has to be ordered in numbers. This is not happening till now.

SANT is still undergoing developmental trials.

integrate SANT on it and then carry out trials it will save time

 

[ezsasa]

nag is for army (which they will never order by seeing their attitude) whereas helina is for air force so why should air force suffer because of army?

IA have already ordered NAG, 25 NAMICA launchers and 300 prospina in Apr 2018.

 

[Defcon 1]

IA have already ordered NAG, 25 NAMICA launchers and 300 prospina in Apr 2018.

That is not an official order. Orders were supposed to be placed in late 2019 but never materialized. That is one thing eating me up. Another is delay in follow on orders of Astra.

 

[Chinmoy]

nag is for army (which they will never order by seeing their attitude) whereas helina is for air force so why should air force suffer because of army?

HELINA is direct derivative of NAG. Even the guidance is same for both. So ordering NAG in numbers would mean the maturity of the system.

Now primary user of LCH is IA. If NAG gets accepted, it would pave way for HELINA.

Moreover you don't bring together two under testing platform. One system needs to be matured to test another.

 

[ezsasa]

That is not an official order. Orders were supposed to be placed in late 2019 but never materialized. That is one thing eating me up. Another is delay in follow on orders of Astra.

I didn’t know, I’ll check later.

Is this news of order before or after new seeker tests on NAG?

On a larger point, these summer and winter trials are killing our timelines. Hopefully some clever chaps come up with a mitigation strategy on simulation front.

 

[Defcon 1]

I didn’t know, I’ll check later.

Is this news of order before or after new seeker tests on NAG?

On a larger point, these summer and winter trials are killing our timelines. Hopefully some clever chaps come up with a mitigation strategy on simulation front.

After new seeker tests. Final trials were completed in July and DRDO had said that they expected production to start before end of 2019. This hasn't happened yet.

 

[ezsasa]

After new seeker tests. Final trials were completed in July and DRDO had said that they expected production to start before end of 2019. This hasn't happened yet.

Ok.

News of order came in feb 2018, with a caveat that procurement of missile will be done with indigenous seeker.

 

[Defcon 1]

Ok.

News of order came in feb 2018, with a caveat that procurement of missile will be done with indigenous seeker.

Again, as I said. That wasn't the order. That would have been something else such as DAC approval or CCS approval. You should recheck your sources. Army hasn't placed an order for Nag missiles yet.

EDIT: Here it is. It was DAC approval in April 2018
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-3600-crore/articleshow/63942467.cms?from=mdr