HAL Hawk

[Armand2REP]

It really is a multitude of factors: poor quality control, insufficient training, corruption and attrition of quality pilots to the commercial sector.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Air-force operate 5 kinds of MIG-21, Which is not in any other air-force in the world..

MiG-21FL [Fishbed D] - Type 77
MiG-21U/UM/US [Mongol] - Type 66
MiG-21M/MF [Fishbed J] - Type 96
MiG-21bis [Fishbed N] - Type 75
MiG-21Bison

MIG-21 preform highest sorties compare to any other fighter in IAF..

HAL only make spare for one kind of MIG-21 which is retired now..

Rest other MIG-21 variant spares are imported not from Russia but from East block countries and there spares are also different from each other..

BANGALORE: Inferior-quality spares have turned the IAF's MiG-21s into "flying coffins'', officials of the Russian Aircraft Corporation, makers of the MiG aircraft, said here on Friday.

Indian officials have been procuring spares for the MiG from many unrecognised units in Eastern Europe, First Deputy General of the corporation Vladimir Barkovsky said at Aero India 2003. "There are only two certified companies for spares - MiG and Rosoboronexport. We cannot own responsibility for spares bought from other places,'' Barkovsky stated.

Indian officials, including those of the IAF, have blamed pilot error for the accidents. Want of an advanced jet trainer has often been blamed. The MiG corporation, on the other hand, has frequently blamed poor-quality spares.

The Russian official, however, praised the work done by Hindustan Aeronautics for the MiG-21, saying the PSU has performed professionally.

Source: The Times of India

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Indian Air-force operate 5 kinds of MIG-21, Which is not in any other air-force in the world..

MiG-21FL [Fishbed D] - Type 77
MiG-21U/UM/US [Mongol] - Type 66
MiG-21M/MF [Fishbed J] - Type 96
MiG-21bis [Fishbed N] - Type 75
MiG-21Bison

MIG-21 preform highest sorties compare to any other fighter in IAF..

HAL only make spare for one kind of MIG-21 which is retired now..

Rest other MIG-21 variant spares are imported not from Russia but from East block countries and there spares are also different from each other..



Source: The Times of India

Actually, there's one more variant in service. It's a different kind of Bison, called BIS I think.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its mentioned : MiG-21bis [Fishbed N] - Type 75

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Its mentioned : MiG-21bis [Fishbed N] - Type 75

My bad, I didn't see it.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Only absurdly high in India I think.
there are some thirtyish countries have or had Mig-21 and its variants in service, not a single one like you guys has turned it into a flying coffin.
I am not blaming on your pilots though. I think the maintenance should be blamed first.

Don't compare with other AFs. Compare the crash rates of Indian MiGs, and all other planes we have. If it's India's technical/human fault, then it should apply to all planes. But it only applies to MiGs, and even among the MiGs, it's mainly the MiG 21.

 

[DaTang]

Mirage and Su27/30s were sent back to Manufacturer for major repair or overhauls. Migs weren't.

Sorties make an other difference, you fly more you run out more.

Don't compare with other AFs. Compare the crash rates of Indian MiGs, and all other planes we have. If it's India's technical/human fault, then it should apply to all planes. But it only applies to MiGs, and even among the MiGs, it's mainly the MiG 21.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Mirage and Su27/30s were sent back to Manufacturer for major repair or overhauls. Migs weren't.

Sorties make an other difference, you fly more you run out more.

Sorties do make a difference, but the plane and the pilot are the main factors. The MiGs were supposedly overhauled too. Apparently the bison is the safest version of the Indian MiGs yet.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Who told you Migs aren't and SU-30mki were sent back for overhauls ?

Where to overhauls ?


Indian dont operate SU-30 or SU-27 but variant of SU-30 which is known as SU-30MKI with canards and TVC..

Mirage and Su27/30s were sent back to Manufacturer for major repair or overhauls. Migs weren't..

 

[DaTang]

Yep, Su30MKI's engines were sent back to Russia for overhaul. if you think russian sources are reliable:
India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti

Su30 mk india is still a Su 30, if you still consider a white horse a horse

Who told you Migs aren't and SU-30mki were sent back for overhauls ?

Where to overhauls ?


Indian dont operate SU-30 or SU-27 but variant of SU-30 which is known as SU-30MKI with canards and TVC..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Are you here to troll ? article dated back 2009.

Technically they are not the same, I can call a Musket and a AK same in that sense but capability wise there are no where near the same..

Yep, Su30MKI's engines were sent back to Russia for overhaul. if you think russian sources are reliable:
India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti

Su30 mk india is still a Su 30, if you still consider a white horse a horse

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Yep, Su30MKI's engines were sent back to Russia for overhaul. if you think russian sources are reliable:
India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti

Su30 mk india is still a Su 30, if you still consider a white horse a horse

The MKI is not the same as regular flanker. I can give you a massive lecture on how it is better, but won't do so since it is off-topic.

 

[Sunder singh]

@ kunal and EzioAltaïr can you confirm Su30 mki will not face faith of mig 21 after few year and i have herd even AJT hawk has also crashed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I dont think anyone can say what you are asking, But if IAF follows his same mistakes what it did with MIG-21 with any-other result will be same..

SU-30MKI / Rafale / F22 / all are machines are meant to malfunction and Crash...

 

[Sunder singh]

Livewire, Red Flag to test IAF's mettle in 2013

In the 80 th year of its inception, the Indian Air Force (IAF ) is gearing up for two major war games next year – the 'Mother of all Exercises ' Livewire and Red
Flag with the US Air Force after five years.
Complete IAF will participate in the first organizational-level war games Livewire – to be organized early next year. Supreme Commander of the Indian Armed Force President Pranab Mukherjee
will also witness the Fire Power Demonstration at the end of Livewire. The other major participation will be in the Red Flag exercise in the US essentially meant for the country 's NATO
allies . Last time the IAF fighter jets roared in the US sky was in 2008 .
"The IAF has been inducting new platforms in its inventory and since the integration is over , the next year will give an opportunity to test the wherewithal of the organisation to maximum, "officials said. The exercise brainchild of Air Chief MarshalNAK Browne , was planned in 2012 but was postponed for 2013 when the new platforms have integrated well with the existing ones. The exercise would be the
first in the history of the IAF and was planned to validate its new war strategies , inductions and technologies. Presently, the fourth largest air force in the world is on the cusp of a major
transformation with the acquisition of state -of- the -art platforms in its inventory.
The built up to the month -long Livewire will be preceded by unit -level and command levelexercises. The exercise is planned to check the integration of the
newly-acquired platforms and network- centric warfare system with the existing fighter fleet of the IAF . The mid- air refuellers were to be tested to the hilt for a war fought on multiple fronts .
The endurance-testing war games
will be followed by India 's
participation in Red Flag exercise ,
that is held every three months
for duration of around two weeks
and it generally involves NATO
allies of the US. In 2008 , IAF 's
eight Sukhoi Su -30 MKIs, two
Il- 78 mid- air tankers and one
Il- 76 heavy lift aircraft covered a
distance of 19 ,000 km along with
91 officers and 156 other ranks.
As much as the IAF would have
wanted to participate in the
prestigious exercise every year, in
view of the huge cost – last time
the bill came to be around Rs .
100 crore – has decide to
participate in the exercise once
every five years. Left parties , an
important ally of the UPA- I have
been against Indian Armed Force
exercising with their US
counterpart. The COPE Indo -US
exercise in West Bengal , Red Flag
exercise in the US and the
Malabar naval exercise had met a
stiff opposition from these
parties .
The experience of participating
along with the best of the air
force in the world in 2008 has
given invaluable experience to the
force. In 2008 , it was the first
time ever that aircraft of the type
of Sukhoi – a Russian built fighter
jet- were in the US territory . It
was the same for Indians who
learned more about the French
Rafale and the US F 15 s and F
16s . The IAF had managed to
outdo the US Air Force in visual
and Beyond Visual Range combat
simulations even as it kept its
radars off and operated on
training frequencies and not the
wartime frequencies used for
communication .
defence eXpress : Livewire, Red
Flag to test IAF' s mettle in
2013

 

[A chauhan]

With poor quality spare parts and maintenance even USAF pilots will crash Mig-21s.

1.The fact that it was inducted in the 1960s is enough to retire them (we should have phased them out around 1990s while by 1969, India had acquired more than 120 MiG-21s) and govt. says they are fit ! how govt. hides its faults and blames others is a very well known , not only that, we are still flying them at 2012 (after nearly 45 years).

2. These crashes occurred mainly between 1991-2002 while they were inducted in the 1960s (almost after 25-30 years), and before that no such crashes occurred, it points at the poor maintenance and end of their service life. On the other hand it points out the poor economic status of India in 1990s.

3. Not only new pilots but experienced pilots also died in those crashes which points at the above factors.

4. Mig-21 being the most-produced fighter jet ever, is bound to have poor quality production.

5. Being a small delta winged high altitude interceptor they are prone to stall suddenly at slow speed, they require high speed landing, hence not fit for new pilots or even for experienced pilots at high mountain areas due to thin air with slow speeds.

Although it would be wrong to compare but if you are using a 1970 model scooter in 2002, then you need a very very good maintenance at daily basis, and your very small negligence can leave you alone in any forest area with your dead scooter. Same goes with Mig-21s, in the above circumstances humans can easily err, and it's not fair to blame pilots alone.

 

[Sunder singh]

@ A chauhan thanks good point 5.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Notwithstanding the recent inclusion of the Pilatus basic trainer, flight training of Indian Air Force will continue to suffer as it is set to lose its Kiran intermediate jet trainer with no replacement in sight.

Rookie pilots in the Air Force have been trained on Kiran Mk 1/1A aircraft since 2009 after the grounding of HPT-32 basic trainer fleet. Before the switch, Kiran was used for stage-II training at the IAF academy, Dundigal. Now, IAF has a brand new basic trainer.

But it is in no position to go back to its old training schedule of Stage-I and II flying in the absence of an intermediate jet trainer (IJT), which is being built by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the last 14 years.

As Kirans are slated to be phased out in 2014 with IJT nowhere on the horizon, the Defence Ministry and IAF recently informed a Parliamentary panel they did not have a contingency plan in place for intermediate training. This raises the possibility of having a void in intermediate jet training in the same manner as was seen in the basic training.

HAL now claims it will receive the initial operational clearance (IOC) for IJT by December 2013. But there is no clarity on how long the aviaton major would take to get the subsequent final operational clearance as only the second prototype of IJT is now being produced in a limited series production assembly.

Moreover, HAL is still in consultation with BAE system – manufacturer of Hawk advanced jet trainer – to resolve the design issues.The first squadron of 14 Pilatus will be inducted in the IAF by May end. The first batch of pilots will receive their flying training in Pilatus from July. The second squadron of Pilatus will go to Flying Instructor's School in Ambala.

The IAF will receive the entire fleet of 75 Pilatus basic trainer aircraft by 2015.

Previously, IAF pilots used to receive 75 hours of stage-I flying training in basic aircraft and similar hours of stage-II training in intermediate trainer Kiran. They could fly advanced trainers like Hawks and operational platforms only after commissioning.

Shortage of aircraft, however, compelled the IAF to recalibrate its training schedule. Now the stage-I training lasts for only 30 hours and stage-II by around 80 hours. Kiran remains the only platform for both stages, though it is nearing its scheduled life.

IAF flight training to suffer with Kiran's retirement

 

[Decklander]

IAF seems to have completely lost it when It comes to training Pilots. I really can't understand the need for IJT when we have the Pilatus and Hawk in the fleet.
Pilatus is used to teach a student the basics of flying and give him a competance level wherein he is comfortable and well orientated with flying. It is after this stage that Hawk stage starts.
IAF has trained 10 batches on all jet course from 134PC to 143PC. I am from one such batch. We never faced any problems what so ever in training on jets straight from Bicycles.

 

[Flyingfauji]

Just read this article:

Russian Yak-130 Combat Trainer Eyes Indian Fifth-generation Trainer Market

Russian combat trainer Yak-130 is eyeing the Indian fifth generation fighter training market with flying characteristics which mimic the PAK-FA fighter which India has signed up to co-produce with Russia.
India's current advanced fighter training needs are met with the Hawk 100, an aircraft optimised for western aircraft such the Eurofighter Typhoon and potentially the Rafale. India had purchased the Hawks when no other advanced trainer was in active production.
However, with India's fighter fleet being composed mostly of Russian fighters such as the MiG-29, the Su-30MKI and in future, the PAK-FA fifth generation stealth fighter, the Yak-130 is a good fit, contends Konstantin Popovich, Vice President of Engineering Center of the Yak-130 project of Irkut Corp, which manufactures the combat trainer.
The Yak-130 can be digitally altered to mimic the fling and handling of a number of western aircraft including the Rafale. This has been made possible by using open-architecture digital aircraft avionics, a full digital glass cockpit, quadruplex-channel digital fly by wire (FBW) with digital channel back-up, and instructor-controlled and variable Fly-By-Wire handling characteristics to replicate a heavy, medium or light aircraft type.


Wondering if anyone has any opinion if the Yak-130 is suitable for the IAF's Su-30, MiG-29 and the proposed Fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) rather than the Hawk 100