Full Revamp Of DRDO-Commercial arm by year-end

[AJSINGH]

it seems every member of your family seem to be in the armed forces. congrats.

yes they are , so again stop mocking me and i myself in NDA

 

[AJSINGH]

ok. even if i accept your contention can you explain and help me understand the status of T-90 even now!!!

1. why is its engine is called 1000hp while its output is only 840 hp??

2. why does not it sport APU??

3. why does it need cooling when Arjuns do not need it?? and where is the power to the AC units going to come from?? if from the engine, what about its mobility which already suffers from under power??

4. when will the issue with Thermals going to be solved??

5. if T-90 was ready in 1999, as you are assuming, why these issues are still there??

6. are these factors good enough to make them sitting ducks???



it seems every member of your family seem to be in the armed forces. congrats.

The last DRDO chief made a public statement that Indian Armed Forces should accept 10% substandard armament to encourage DRDO. I consider the statement outrageous.
A recent CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General) report stated that Arjun's imported content had risen from 27% to nearly 60% in the 15 pre-production series (PPS), substantially enhancing costs.

Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development. MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/62617.aspx
T-90S is equiped with Thales Catherine Thermals . so the issue is solved

 

[AJSINGH]

ok. even if i accept your contention can you explain and help me understand the status of T-90 even now!!!

1. why is its engine is called 1000hp while its output is only 840 hp??

2. why does not it sport APU??

3. why does it need cooling when Arjuns do not need it?? and where is the power to the AC units going to come from?? if from the engine, what about its mobility which already suffers from under power??

4. when will the issue with Thermals going to be solved??

5. if T-90 was ready in 1999, as you are assuming, why these issues are still there??

6. are these factors good enough to make them sitting ducks???



it seems every member of your family seem to be in the armed forces. congrats.

The last DRDO chief made a public statement that Indian Armed Forces should accept 10% substandard armament to encourage DRDO. I consider the statement outrageous.
A recent CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General) report stated that Arjun's imported content had risen from 27% to nearly 60% in the 15 pre-production series (PPS), substantially enhancing costs.

Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development. MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/62617.aspx

 

[nrj]

^^^^ Cost of Tank & its components will come down substantially only when ordered in thousands. T90S price lower than Arjun right now only due to thousands of units on the production line. Just 100+ numbers of Arjun won't make it any cheaper.

 

[AJSINGH]

At ppgp , was there any other superior tank available to IA when it saw PA with T-80U, Arjun was still not developed
Propulsion

The T-90S will be powered by a 1,000 hp V-92S2 four-stroke V-12 diesel engine. This new engine, fitted with a turbo-supercharger, offers impressive specific power and specific fuel consumption characteristics. The tank can carry up to 1600 litres of fuel in the main, armour plated fuel tanks and fuel drums. The tank is provided with a snorkel for deep fording (up to 5 metres of water) with equipment which can be deployed in 20 minutes. The mechanical transmission includes primary reduction gear, two planetary final gearboxes and two planetary final drives. The running gear features torsion bar suspension with hydraulic shock absorbers at 1, 2 and 6 road wheel stations and tracks with rubber-metallic pin hinges.
he purchase of the T-90S was influenced by two factors: one, Pakistan finalizing the purchase of 320 T-80UD tanks from Ukraine; and two, the delay in the production of the indigenous MBT Arjun.
( http://www.ipcs.org/article_details.php?articleNo=1319)
also why were the problems solved , well because PA already had T-80U and it was burecratic delay that the T-90S were not upgraded with Katherine .

 

[AJSINGH]

look IA is doing wrong by upgrading T-72 , and not buying Arjun , however in 1999 ,T-90S was the only tank to fit the needs of IA ,so IA bought it and not Arjun ( tell me which is better , T-90S with problems or not in production Arjun )

 

[AJSINGH]

so you are right or the reports i posted are right?? the project will be over only in 2012!!!

let the members here decide. =xD

really , judging by their earlier deadlines , there is high probability that project wont finish in time , remember Arjun , and HAL LCA

 

[san]

look IA is doing wrong by upgrading T-72 , and not buying Arjun , however in 1999 ,T-90S was the only tank to fit the needs of IA ,so IA bought it and not Arjun ( tell me which is better , T-90S with problems or not in production Arjun )

How can you say that T90S is the only tank? Was army issued any bid spec? How do you think that T90S is best of T90 series tank? T90S has not the one of the most important component ,Shotara defenceve suit. Whole T90S import is nothing but a scandal keeping two factors 1) Allow to keep running russian factories and depend on russia for future MBT and spare parts that involve middle men 2) Block Arjun and any future indian MBT

 

[san]

really , judging by their earlier deadlines , there is high probability that project wont finish in time , remember Arjun , and HAL LCA

You can laugh at DRDO due to deadline but same way about IA - 1.3 million strong, worlds fourth largest, having more than $20 billion budjet, preapred to defend both against from mighty China and Pakistan with their 70% imported weapons. An army that import from bullet, rifle to tank and almost anything that is available in foreign market. An army that wants russian junks that even russian army is also not interested.

 

[AJSINGH]

How can you say that T90S is the only tank? Was army issued any bid spec? How do you think that T90S is best of T90 series tank? T90S has not the one of the most important component ,Shotara defenceve suit. Whole T90S import is nothing but a scandal keeping two factors 1) Allow to keep running russian factories and depend on russia for future MBT and spare parts that involve middle men 2) Block Arjun and any future indian MBT

look IA made it very clear that it wanted the succesor of T-72 ,which was T-90S . and how will T-90S kill Arjun when Arjun MBT was not even in production then what is IA supposed to do, huh wait for another god knows how many years and then buy Arjun

 

[AJSINGH]

You can laugh at DRDO due to deadline but same way about IA - 1.3 million strong, worlds fourth largest, having more than $20 billion budjet, preapred to defend both against from mighty China and Pakistan with their 70% imported weapons. An army that import from bullet, rifle to tank and almost anything that is available in foreign market. An army that wants russian junks that even russian army is also not interested.

russians are not looking to induct Mig35 but is offered to IAF, how does it matter , their requirements are different . How does it affect Indian armed forces

 

[ppgj]

yes they are , so again stop mocking me and i myself in NDA

i was not mocking you. i was just wondering. apology if you felt so. and goodluck to you at NDA.

The last DRDO chief made a public statement that Indian Armed Forces should accept 10% substandard armament to encourage DRDO. I consider the statement outrageous.

10% substandard?? don't see things out of context. what he is meaning is - even if the local ones fall a little short, the armed forces need to cooperate and involve themselves for iterative development to make the products better. the same happened with Merkavas of Israel. if one wants to attain self sufficiency, that is the only route.

OTOH, how does only a statement purportedly made by DRDO chief becomes relevant when even worse situations exist wrt the foreign products already in operation!!

how about with the issues i enumerated wrt T-90?? it certainly makes them more than 50% inferior!!! why are they in operation??

A recent CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General) report stated that Arjun's imported content had risen from 27% to nearly 60% in the 15 pre-production series (PPS), substantially enhancing costs.

Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development. MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/62617.aspx

CAG report on prototypes?? are you kidding?? you look at the content of inducted tank or a prototype??

here -

Presently, the local content is around 50 percent. The engine and power train has been imported from Germany.

"We plan to source engines from Cummins India for future orders. If more orders come by, we can reduce the imported content to 25 percent," Sundaresh added.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...-indigenous-arjun-tank-hi-tech_100159572.html

also answer me how is 100% imported and obsolete T-90 is better than 50% imported superior Arjun??

cost -

The T-90 currently serving with the Indian Army after all upgrades costs Rs17 crore, as against an Rs16 crore price tag for the Arjun. Larger orders for the Arjun will further bring down per unit costs.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/land/indian_army/20100517_arjun_main_battle_tanks_oneView.html

IOW T-90's cost more and inferior while Arjuns are superior and cost less!!

T-90S is equiped with Thales Catherine Thermals . so the issue is solved

really?? FYI the thermals is still an issue. know why?? T-90 needs cooling system. i asked you in the previous post where is it going to draw power from for the AC unit. also note it does not have APU!! the engine is underpowered which in reality transltes to power/wt. ratio at 18.07 compared to Arjun"S 23.93 (with 1400 hp engine)!! what about mobility??

kuku sawf is is a die hard anti drdo guy. he himself, on Broadsword, said he does not know much of tanks and went on to ask some silly questions and was thrashed.

At ppgp , was there any other superior tank available to IA when it saw PA with T-80U, Arjun was still not developed Propulsion

why they are still inferior 11 years post induction??

The T-90S will be powered by a 1,000 hp V-92S2 four-stroke V-12 diesel engine. This new engine, fitted with a turbo-supercharger, offers impressive specific power and specific fuel
consumption characteristics. The tank can carry up to 1600 litres of fuel in the main, armour plated fuel tanks and fuel drums.

yet gives 840hp power output!! =xD

The tank is provided with a snorkel for deep fording (up to 5 metres of water) with equipment which can be deployed in 20 minutes.

Arjun does better.

The mechanical transmission includes primary reduction gear, two planetary final gearboxes and two planetary final drives. The running gear features torsion bar suspension with hydraulic shock absorbers at 1, 2 and 6 road wheel stations and tracks with rubber-metallic pin hinges.

Arjun has auto transmission + mechanical!!

he purchase of the T-90S was influenced by two factors: one, Pakistan finalizing the purchase of 320 T-80UD tanks from Ukraine; and two, the delay in the production of the indigenous MBT Arjun.
( http://www.ipcs.org/article_details.php?articleNo=1319)

yes. but the idea was to be superior to T-80UD's right?? do you know T-80's of pakistan are actually T-84's?? powered by 1200 hp engines with APU to boot?? so where is the superiority. i have given links on the Arjun thread. read them.

also why were the problems solved , well because PA already had T-80U and it was burecratic delay that the T-90S were not upgraded with Katherine .

but katherines when installed did not work!! the issue is still not resolved. why the delay still??? is it because it is Russian so no problem!!

look IA is doing wrong by upgrading T-72 , and not buying Arjun , however in 1999 ,T-90S was the only tank to fit the needs of IA ,so IA bought it and not Arjun ( tell me which is better , T-90S with problems or not in production Arjun )

you are yet to answer my questions regards T-90 still!!

Arjuns having problems in 1999 have been resolved. why T-90 issues are still not??

really , judging by their earlier deadlines , there is high probability that project wont finish in time , remember Arjun , and HAL LCA

don't pre judge. you can criticise if there is delay post 2012. you can relax till then.

 

[AJSINGH]

i was not mocking you. i was just wondering. apology if you felt so. and goodluck to you at NDA.



10% substandard?? don't see things out of context. what he is meaning is - even if the local ones fall a little short, the armed forces need to cooperate and involve themselves for iterative development to make the products better. the same happened with Merkavas of Israel. if one wants to attain self sufficiency, that is the only route.

OTOH, how does only a statement purportedly made by DRDO chief becomes relevant when even worse situations exist wrt the foreign products already in operation!!

how about with the issues i enumerated wrt T-90?? it certainly makes them more than 50% inferior!!! why are they in operation??



CAG report on prototypes?? are you kidding?? you look at the content of inducted tank or a prototype??

here -



http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...-indigenous-arjun-tank-hi-tech_100159572.html

also answer me how is 100% imported and obsolete T-90 is better than 50% imported superior Arjun??

cost -



http://www.domain-b.com/defence/land/indian_army/20100517_arjun_main_battle_tanks_oneView.html

IOW T-90's cost more and inferior while Arjuns are superior and cost less!!



really?? FYI the thermals is still an issue. know why?? T-90 needs cooling system. i asked you in the previous post where is it going to draw power from for the AC unit. also note it does not have APU!! the engine is underpowered which in reality transltes to power/wt. ratio at 18.07 compared to Arjun"S 23.93 (with 1400 hp engine)!! what about mobility??

kuku sawf is is a die hard anti drdo guy. he himself, on Broadsword, said he does not know much of tanks and went on to ask some silly questions and was thrashed.



why they are still inferior 11 years post induction??



yet gives 840hp power output!! =xD



Arjun does better.



Arjun has auto transmission + mechanical!!



yes. but the idea was to be superior to T-80UD's right?? do you know T-80's of pakistan are actually T-84's?? powered by 1200 hp engines with APU to boot?? so where is the superiority. i have given links on the Arjun thread. read them.



but katherines when installed did not work!! the issue is still not resolved. why the delay still??? is it because it is Russian so no problem!!



you are yet to answer my questions regards T-90 still!!

Arjuns having problems in 1999 have been resolved. why T-90 issues are still not??



don't pre judge. you can criticise if there is delay post 2012. you can relax till then.

The T-90M is a radically upgraded variant of the existing T-90S 'Bhishma' MBT, and is 1.5 times more capable than the T-90S. The T-90M features the 'Kaktus' embedded explosive reactive armour (ERA) package on its frontal hull and turret-top (the T-90S has 'Kontakt-5' ERA), is fitted with an enhanced environmental control system supplied by Israel's Kinetics Ltd for providing cooled air to the fighting compartment, has additional internal volume for housing the cryogenic cooling systems for new-generation thermal imagers like the THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth and housed within the Peleng-built 1G-46 gunner's sight) and the commander's panoramic sight (which houses the Matis-STD thermal imager that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth and which has also been selected for the Arjun Mk1 MBT's panoramic sight), is fitted with an automatic gearbox, has an electro-hydraulic turret-drive-cum stabilisation system, and most importantly, has a 52-cal 2A46M-5 Rapira smoothbore main gun barrel that also comes fitted with a muzzle reference system. The T-90M's powerplant will be the Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant-built 1,000hp V-92S2 diesel engine, while a 1kW AB-1-P28 auxiliary power unit will provide back-up electric power when the engine is idling. The gunner's sight-cum-laser rangefinder will be the 1A43 system, which will also house the Peleng-built 1G46 day sight and the ESSA module containing the Catherine-FC thermal imager and the 9S517 missile guidance module for the Refleks anti-armour/anti-helicopter round. The digital hunter-killer fire-control system will use the 1V528-1 ballistics computer and the DVE-BS meteorological sensor. Bharat Electronics Ltd will supply the T-90M's digitised battlespace management system and radio communications suite (licence-built models originally designed by Elbit Systems and Tadiran), while Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will provide the fibre-optic gyro-based autonomous land navigation system. The hard kill feature of the LEDS-150 product is characterised by its capability to physically destroy the efficiency of the terminal ballistic capability of attacking munitions without residual penetration of the protected vehicle. The hard kill system detects and tracks a single or simultaneous threats and calculates if the attacking munition will hit the platform or not. The system determines the best inertial intercept position and provides the slew and firing commands to the launchers. The Mongoose-1 countermeasure missile is launched at a predetermined time to intercept and neutralise the detected munition off-board at a distance of between 5 metres and 15 metres from the vehicle to minimise the collateral damage to own forces.

Interestingly, the hulls and welded steel turrets of the 330 T-90Ms, along with their Rapira gun barrels, will be fabricated by HVF with locally-sourced raw materials, while an improved version of the indigenous 'Kanchan' modular ceramics-based composite laminate armour package will be used for substituting the Russian package, whose technology-transfer has been denied by Russia. The same also goes for the Kaktus ERA tiles and RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating, which will be totally imported from Russia.

Presently, as things stand, Indian Army HQ is adhering to a modified MBT force structure, whose original version, as proposed in 2006, had called for a fleet of 3,780 MBTs, comprising 1,302 T-90s 2,356 T-72s and 124 Arjun Mk1s. The modified structure now calls for 2,473 higher-end MBTs, including 1,409 T-90s, 248 Arjuns, and 692 T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeyas. The Army's gameplan is to have 21 regiments of T-90s and 34 regiments of upgraded T-72M1s and six regiments of Arjuns by 2020.--Prasun K. Sengupta

so that answers, your question on the porblems of with T-90S , http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2009/01/indias-born-again-t-90m-mbt.html , also APU is solved and So axullury power supply.
Plus how many T-80UD are there in the first place .less than 1000, so wont make that much tactical gain on the side of PA

 

[ppgj]

russians are not looking to induct Mig35 but is offered to IAF, how does it matter , their requirements are different . How does it affect Indian armed forces

agree. but they are not rejecting it because it is OBSOLETE, which they are doing with T-90!! so don't confuse and draw an analogy that suits you.

http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2009/01/indias-born-again-t-90m-mbt.html

don't be floored by baseless analysis!!

T-90 M is only in prototype stage. this was shown to Mr. Putin only in december 2009!! it has a new autoloader at the aft of the turret. it needs to be validated for firing longer rods. still a long way to go. so relax. here is the link -

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/01/90-new-specs.html#more

besides indian TOT is for T-90 S!! not what prasun sen gupta wants you to beleive in!!!

even if at some stage IA wants to go for T-90M it means lot of money (oh...already T-90S is costlier than Arjun!!) and time for changing the turret to new specs!! easier said than done.

be rational and realistic and let your love for Russia not cloud your thinking.

 

[AJSINGH]

agree. but they are not rejecting it because it is OBSOLETE, which they are doing with T-90!! so don't confuse and draw an analogy that suits you.



don't be floored by baseless analysis!!

T-90 M is only in prototype stage. this was shown to Mr. Putin only in december 2009!! it has a new autoloader at the aft of the turret. it needs to be validated for firing longer rods. still a long way to go. so relax. here is the link -

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/01/90-new-specs.html#more

besides indian TOT is for T-90 S!! not what prasun sen gupta wants you to beleive in!!!

even if at some stage IA wants to go for T-90M it means lot of money (oh...already T-90S is costlier than Arjun!!) and time for changing the turret to new specs!! easier said than done.

be rational and realistic and let your love for Russia not cloud your thinking.

read again , we have order for T-90M .

The T-90M features the 'Kaktus' embedded explosive reactive armour (ERA) package on its frontal hull and turret-top (the T-90S has 'Kontakt-5' ERA), is fitted with an enhanced environmental control system supplied by Israel's Kinetics Ltd for providing cooled air to the fighting compartment, has additional internal volume for housing the cryogenic cooling systems for new-generation thermal imagers like the THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth.[10] In all, India plans to have 310 T-90S and 1,330 T-90M tanks in service by 2020.
The first batch of 10 license built T-90 Bhishma was inducted into the Indian army on 24 August 2009. These vehicles were built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Tamil Nadu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90


i think it goes for you , be realist and let not love for DRDO cloud your thinking .

 

[ppgj]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90

then why T-90 S bhishma are rolling out?? from your favourite kuku sawf site -

T-90S license manufacture

A $795 million dollar transfer of technology agreement was inked on February 15, 2001, between the Government of India and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise "State Corporation 'Rosvoorouzhenic' of the Russian Federation."

Russia shipped 124 T-90 tanks to India off the shelf. Another 186 were supplied in semi-knocked-down condition for assembly in Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

In a follow up TOT agreement signed in 2006, Russia agreed to transfer technology for the license production of 1,000 additional tanks in India through 2020.

However, Russia pussyfooted on the TOT part of the agreement and production never started, forcing India to resort to the outright purchase of an additional 330 tanks in November 2007 to cover a gap in its military capabilities.

http://kuku.sawf.org/News/59601.aspx

i think it goes for you , be realist and let not love for DRDO cloud your thinking .

i give it to you. that is a good one.

 

[san]

look IA made it very clear that it wanted the succesor of T-72 ,which was T-90S . and how will T-90S kill Arjun when Arjun MBT was not even in production then what is IA supposed to do, huh wait for another god knows how many years and then buy Arjun

Buddy pls educate yourself what was happening with Arjun for last 10 years.

 

[AJSINGH]

Buddy pls educate yourself what was happening with Arjun for last 10 years.

okay where was the tank in 1999

 

[AJSINGH]

then why T-90 S bhishma are rolling out?? from your favourite kuku sawf site -



http://kuku.sawf.org/News/59601.aspx



i give it to you. that is a good one.

i quote " first you should tell how long it takes to indegenize a tech transfer i say 5 years so tech was transfered at least 5 years ago

same is the fate of mki tech transfer took 6 years" from the same website http://kuku.sawf.org/News/59601.aspx

 

[san]

russians are not looking to induct Mig35 but is offered to IAF, how does it matter , their requirements are different . How does it affect Indian armed forces

Can you elobarate how russian requirement is different before advocating for russian products. Russian are not inducting because these products are not for next 30 years and they have a very loyal customer named India to dump all their junks