Dhanush the Indian Bofors

[Pulkit]

There are things to which I agree and some to which I dis agree....
The person you are referring to has done alot to improve acceptance of domestic products.... He deserves credit for that....
Its very difficult to convince others and specially yourself when so many lobbies are around you to pay you so heavily given that he did a grt job...

The numbers ordered are low but the expectation is it will go up by 500 or atleast to 500MK2 Arjun....
Treatment with Tejas(Kindly refer by his name) and Arjun has been terrible....
PAkis accepted JF17 which is good but they have no other option....
I support that in the case of Tejas MK1..... but till the time IAF and IN commit to MK2 I will be satisfied Or you can say even i have no other option can't do a thing to change that....


Our Top command think that they can get the best out of domestic Industry whithout giving them a chance to grow and upgrade ....They compare it with International.... and when it meets that requirements .... then they have trust issues... which not to forget is not the case with foreign products...

IN as you were saying is doing great but the reality is it is not that simple..... we are moving faster towards indeginisation in case of Navy than in IAF or IA....
But still large chunk of tech equipement is foreign... but they are doing good.....


I would like to see HAL held responsible i mean take responsibility along with IA IAF IN DRDO ADA for all the work combined going further.....

Agree on few things Sir...
But i don't think we can give so much credit to him. For some army has been forced by government or for others army has no option left.
Too many road blocks on indigenous hardware has been put by army in past is difficult to imagine that it has changed, it will still depend on how much army top brass supports Mk2.
118 is still too low, need numbers to justify work done on them and lower its cost else it will become a white elephant same as case with french tanks. order more and support MK2 to further updates.

Frankly as an outsider to all this only navy seems to be supporting indigenous effort in india rest are too behind and army being the worst.
Have seen how indian products have been treated, LCA by airforce and Arjun by army are top most examples.
LCA whether on par to rafale or not, it was better than 21's and we should have already inducted at least a 20-40 of them, even hate to say pakistan airforce did better job in accepting J-17's they r no where near LCA but they had support.
Army is too shy and showing rigidity in accepting arjun with every now and there getting some lame response, pakistan here too did better job in supporting its self built tanks.
Hope they understand reality and need of time.

For me its too early to cheer it up, its long way to go.
it was good that govt removed RPF for LUH and supported HAL LUH, same should happen with arjun, no more T90 orders why waste money on which we already have issues or is incomplete package and not supporting indian self reliance, army needs to be forced to accepted some of indian made equipment now.
Airforce has accepted Akash missiles but don't know why is army still showing reluctance.

 

[SilentKiller]

There are things to which I agree and some to which I dis agree....
The person you are referring to has done alot to improve acceptance of domestic products.... He deserves credit for that....
Its very difficult to convince others and specially yourself when so many lobbies are around you to pay you so heavily given that he did a grt job...

The numbers ordered are low but the expectation is it will go up by 500 or atleast to 500MK2 Arjun....
Treatment with Tejas(Kindly refer by his name) and Arjun has been terrible....
PAkis accepted JF17 which is good but they have no other option....
I support that in the case of Tejas MK1..... but till the time IAF and IN commit to MK2 I will be satisfied Or you can say even i have no other option can't do a thing to change that....


Our Top command think that they can get the best out of domestic Industry whithout giving them a chance to grow and upgrade ....They compare it with International.... and when it meets that requirements .... then they have trust issues... which not to forget is not the case with foreign products...

IN as you were saying is doing great but the reality is it is not that simple..... we are moving faster towards indeginisation in case of Navy than in IAF or IA....
But still large chunk of tech equipement is foreign... but they are doing good.....


I would like to see HAL held responsible i mean take responsibility along with IA IAF IN DRDO ADA for all the work combined going further.....

For me he might have done but not any visible change, only time will tell how much credit he get..i can wait on that.
Increase in T 90 orders and Arjun MK2 more orders will not go in parallel. Arjun MK2 induction was never in his tenure but increase in T 90 orders were.
DRDO has been for long crying for more Arjun tanks orders, let wait and seen what happens, 118 is not enough for the program.
Yes, HAL needs to answerable and truly govt is doing great in keeping HAL and few PSU's out of few projects. HAL needs better production line to keep up with technology enhancements.

coming back to topic, Danush induction will be great for OFB and army. next version can be 155-52.
We haven't inducted single gun in almost 20years, so its very necessary we get them, bofors the jewel of Kargil..is getting its successor.

 

[Punya Pratap]

There is not much public about what he did, Due to only his efforts today we have Dhanush and MK2 in trails so does many other minor things which are numerous and which make big difference, He is doing even now at position he is appointed in ..

As for INSAS, There won`t be any 1B1 improved in service without much of his presence, One man cannot undo decade of corruption in one go ..

If we had a compliant COAS then there would nt have been a Siachen left for us since the Maunmohan Singh in all his stupidity was willing to make it a Mountain of Peace by withdrawing our forces and that too without authenticating Troop positions at Siachen with written agreement by Pakistan !!

Read this : Siachen demilitarisation: Could PM gift away to Pakistan what Army has won? : Cover Story - India Today

And then give due recognition to VK Singh and JJ Singh for thwarting Manmohan !!

Sanjay Baru has this to say : PM's ex-aide Sanjaya Baru blames ‘hawkish’ Antony, Army for scuttling Manmohan Singh's Siachen initiative, Gen JJ Singh hits back - The Times of India

I love the bits about Sonia "blessing the peace initiative for Rahul to take the credit as the future PM" bit.... I also love the fact that our ex PM was willing to give up the sacrifice of our Army which wrested Soltoro through Ops Meghdoot..... The interesting bit about Musharraf being the Brigadier at Skardu and wanting to take Saltoro is again indicative of why Kargil happened and what is the significance of Siachen coz in Siachen lies the seeds of Kargil war!!

 

[Bhadra]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

the culprits are army themselves

when we bought bofors in 1986 we got ToT

Sir, you are very intelligent and smart .
So it is Army who had TOT ??
And Army should have built guns utilising that ToT...

Very good..

 

[Bhadra]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

A barrel bursting here and there are small problems. These things happen with any gun. This is not a show-stopper.

The main thing is accuracy and range of the gun.

The critical thing is to place larger orders. India needs an annual production of 300-400 artillery pieces, split equally between 105mm and 155mm calibres.

Barrel bursting is a small problem...

So guns should achieve accuracy and consistency in bursting >>>>

I conclude now that you certainly are not a gunner...

"large orders" is the key in all your arguments (like videshi mal in many others of the same ilk)... business oriented and business man scientist of India ... !!

I do like business mindedness more than scientific temper.....

( I could explain further but Kunal will ban me for that !!)

 

[sgarg]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

Bhadra, you are free to express your opinion. I am sure Kunal will not ban you.

My statement is made in complete seriousness. There is no equipment made by any country that is 100% defect free. I would want defence equipment to be made with strict quality control and by qualified and dedicated hands BUT one cannot wish away the reality completely.

India is a large country with a long border and faces rather unfriendly neighbors. It is not illogical to want 300-400 pieces of guns every year.

Please offer your arguments. Forget about "businessman".

I rather hope and pray that big local companies come forward to build equipment for army. This will happen when there is cooperation from army and an attitude of patronage to local vendors.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

Bhadra, you are free to express your opinion. I am sure Kunal will not ban you.

My statement is made in complete seriousness. There is no equipment made by any country that is 100% defect free. I would want defence equipment to be made with strict quality control and by qualified and dedicated hands BUT one cannot wish away the reality completely.

India is a large country with a long border and faces rather unfriendly neighbors. It is not illogical to want 300-400 pieces of guns every year.

Please offer your arguments. Forget about "businessman".

I rather hope and pray that big local companies come forward to build equipment for army. This will happen when there is cooperation from army and an attitude of patronage to local vendors.

OFB and their products are local only.. so called indegenious

But once they found the captive market in the forces the quality and as also the quantity of their product has gone to dogs..

Ultimately who is the suffers ... same is the case for DRDO invented defence items being produced by various firms.

The ultimate issue is - the user must have a say in the product they choose.

In India user is taken for granted and every inferior item is pushed on to them in the name of Indenisation.

In the case of Navy the use is part of planning , innovation, manufacture and production and lot of say on their equipment.

Why that is not the case for IAF and IA ?

Why DGQA is [art of MoD and DRDO ???????/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

There is not a single point you raised about the things he asked, Just garbage written all over your post ..

Your next post surely get you a holiday card ..

OFB and their products are local only.. so called indegenious

But once they found the captive market in the forces the quality and as also the quantity of their product has gone to dogs..

Ultimately who is the suffers ... same is the case for DRDO invented defence items being produced by various firms.

The ultimate issue is - the user must have a say in the product they choose.

In India user is taken for granted and every inferior item is pushed on to them in the name of Indenisation.

In the case of Navy the use is part of planning , innovation, manufacture and production and lot of say on their equipment.

Why that is not the case for IAF and IA ?

Why DGQA is [art of MoD and DRDO ???????/

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

A barrel bursting here and there are small problems. These things happen with any gun. This is not a show-stopper...

You are a gunner? Otherwise, easy for you to say :shocked:

 

[sgarg]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

You are a gunner? Otherwise, easy for you to say :shocked:

There are many things that can go wrong. For example ammunition. A single piece may be defective coming from the factory, or may become defective in handling and transportation. It is not only gun barrel.

A gun barrel can become defective in service due to improper upkeep. Other components may fail due to improper maintenance.

As Indian army goes for more complex systems, it will grapple with "lack of technical skills" in its soldiers. Indians are generally not good with machines.

There are many variables. A simplistic "barrel burst due to OFB quality" does not suffice. A thorough dispassionate analysis is needed for each incident.

Above all, army needs to be told to buy from local vendors. Army needs to take into consideration the capabilities of local industry. This "best in the world" concept simply does not work. India has to work according to its abilities and its pockets. India cannot emulate USA or UK or Germany. India needs to find uniquely Indian solutions which work in Indian conditions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

I think people who are still dragging the issue of barrel busting should read the thread, Its not a long one ..

The Old ammunition cause the explosion of the barrel ..

There are many variables. A simplistic "barrel burst due to OFB quality" does not suffice. A thorough dispassionate analysis is needed for each incident. .

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

please Ignore if already posted

Introduction of the Indian Bofors: Dhanush some good points

 

[pmaitra]

please Ignore if already posted

Introduction of the Indian Bofors: Dhanush some good points

This gentleman sounds very knowledgeable. I think he is a senior engineer and knows his stuff. So, it took us 7 years from first firing to user trials? I wonder why?

Listen to the entire video. Even if we get ToT, it is better to build things back home, because, we tend to do that anyway.

 

[arnabmit]

This gentleman sounds very knowledgeable. I think he is a senior engineer and knows his stuff. So, it took us 7 years from first firing to user trials? I wonder why?

Listen to the entire video. Even if we get ToT, it is better to build things back home, because, we tend to do that anyway.

At 6:06 he says the first time the gun was fired was in December 2011.

 

[pmaitra]

At 6:06 he says the first time the gun was fired was in December 2011.

So, it would be 3 years. My mistake.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Gen VK Singh in a recent Interview with MoneyControl

"The problem is with your procedures. Let me give you one simple example. We made a gun, which we called the Indian field gun, an excellent in the gun, in the Jabalpur coach factory. In last 25 years, you haven't made a single gun. Why? Because the procedure says Indian army has not ordered more guns, "Hey guys, why were you sleeping? Why didn't you upgrade yourself to make something else?" Today, we won't have been looking for a 155mm if this gun coach factory along with the DRDO, along with the armed forces, sat down and had made or taken a stride in making a 155 caliber gun. So, the basic mentality has to be changed."

This was my gut feeling for many years abt defence research in india, which i was not able to express clearly in words. Defence research in India, when successful (Naval Projects, IAF Avionics) has followed an approach , more or less as suggested by the General above. So, maybe, for successful defense product realization, all concerned parties should be involved with the project, and a Heavyweight and Influential Project leader (who signs ACR or decides bonus, has authority to hire and fire team members from that particular project) should be selected. Japanese companies have concept called as "Cross Functional Team" and a position known as "Project Leader" who directly reports to the CEO. An example is the recent OFB 155mm 45 Cal Project, where, after Summer trials were passed , if the team had a structure as suggested by Gen VKS above, small no. of guns like 18-24 nos / 3-4 batteries can be inducted in terrain where the trials were successful, like say Rajasthan sector, and induction in Winter terrain can be differed pending winter trial results. The new guns would complement the existing 105mm and 130mm artillery in desert sector, and no one is suggesting yet that they will replace the Bofors. This approach has also been seen in Navy-DRDO sonar projects, where new developments "complement" the existing hardware, which is often imported. IMHO, such an approach gives an option to field commanders at the grass roots level, who can atleast have some weapon to fire back with, when previously nothing was available.


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Indian Army places first Small order for Indian Bofors | idrw.org

 

[Bhadra]

Gen VK Singh in a recent Interview with MoneyControl

"The problem is with your procedures. Let me give you one simple example. We made a gun, which we called the Indian field gun, an excellent in the gun, in the Jabalpur coach factory. In last 25 years, you haven't made a single gun. Why? Because the procedure says Indian army has not ordered more guns, "Hey guys, why were you sleeping? Why didn't you upgrade yourself to make something else?" Today, we won't have been looking for a 155mm if this gun coach factory along with the DRDO, along with the armed forces, sat down and had made or taken a stride in making a 155 caliber gun. So, the basic mentality has to be changed."

This was my gut feeling for many years abt defence research in india, which i was not able to express clearly in words. Defence research in India, when successful (Naval Projects, IAF Avionics) has followed an approach , more or less as suggested by the General above. So, maybe, for successful defense product realization, all concerned parties should be involved with the project, and a Heavyweight and Influential Project leader (who signs ACR or decides bonus, has authority to hire and fire team members from that particular project) should be selected. Japanese companies have concept called as "Cross Functional Team" and a position known as "Project Leader" who directly reports to the CEO. An example is the recent OFB 155mm 45 Cal Project, where, after Summer trials were passed , if the team had a structure as suggested by Gen VKS above, small no. of guns like 18-24 nos / 3-4 batteries can be inducted in terrain where the trials were successful, like say Rajasthan sector, and induction in Winter terrain can be differed pending winter trial results. The new guns would complement the existing 105mm and 130mm artillery in desert sector, and no one is suggesting yet that they will replace the Bofors. This approach has also been seen in Navy-DRDO sonar projects, where new developments "complement" the existing hardware, which is often imported. IMHO, such an approach gives an option to field commanders at the grass roots level, who can atleast have some weapon to fire back with, when previously nothing was available.


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Indian Army places first Small order for Indian Bofors | idrw.org

I entirely agree with this... there has to be an interface between the developers and users..

 

[sgarg]

I entirely agree with this... there has to be an interface between the developers and users..

The Army has to graduate from "buyer" army to "developer" army.
The past is past, the trick is to save the future.
The OFB has started building a 155mm field gun. Better still, several private players have come up with 155mm and 105mm calibre guns. The army has the option to collaborate with these companies to get what it wants.

 

[Bhadra]

The Army has to graduate from "buyer" army to "developer" army.

Yes, for that the money spend on DRDO and OFB R&D needs to be given to the Army. In order to become developer, one needs resources and an organisation. Alternatively, let us put DRDO under the Joint Chief of staff.
Today DRDO is under MoD, so the onus of development must rest with MoD who can not differentiate between the aft and fore of a gun.

The Via-media is - let the user (IAF, Navy and the Army) work together in a coordinated manner. Let their be users representatives at every level to provide users input during development and manufacture. That should not be problematic except for the bloated pay of DRDO scientist.

The past is past, the trick is to save the future.
The OFB has started building a 155mm field gun. Better still, several private players have come up with 155mm and 105mm calibre guns. The army has the option to collaborate with these companies to get what it wants.

The OFV has started making a gun on blue prints they had kept in trash bin for so many years. When they saw the IA is about to import guns they suddenly wake up.
Good that they have woken up.

About the private players, they have been provided specifications and it would be pleasure to see them manufacturing their guns if not for India may be for exports !!

 

[Twinblade]

The 18 for current year and 50 next year still seems to be too low. It is not clear to what extent OFB is using private sector but I am sure companies like Bharat Forge have the capacity to build one barrel per day.

Rest of the forged or stamped parts can be churned out in even larger quantities.

Either army is still dragging its feet or there is something else suspicious about it.

Bharat forge might have the capability to manufacture one barrel a day, but OFB has the facilities to produce one barrel an hour. The speed of the supply chain is governed by the slowest process, which for a new product lies in quality control checks and low rate of initial production to iron out any production issues.