China Economy: News & Discussion

[johnq]

Maybe but situation in India is even worst
Gap between rich and poor in India is much bigger than what it is in China

No, that is an illusion created due to the censorship of the Chinese Communist Party. How many outsiders have actually seen the inside of the Chinese labor camps where torture, rape, killing and organ harvesting is a regular occurrence? All we have are 3rd party reports from people who have been only to the outer edges of such a system. If it wasn't for some Chinese doctors who were forced to do organ harvesting from prisoners who escaped and reported about it, we would have no idea.
The thing is that India does have its problems and issues, but it also has hope for the future due to having a democratic system. But China's problems are much more sinister in some ways and run a lot deeper. The biggest mistake that outsiders make is that they assume that the Chinese Communist Party is somehow a legitimate government, when it's anything but. The entire system is built on fear and exploitation, with the CCP members harvesting the fruits from the labor of hundreds of millions of underpaid and overworked common Chinese workers and slaves. That is why CCP bots are so eager to defend their great CCP, because in a way they are protecting their own interests; since most of the CCP bots are CCP members or are from such families. They are making good money doing BS propaganda work, while the common Chinese workers, slaves and prisoners are worked to the bone for sustenance wages, while their organs are sold for profit on the black market.

 

[Haldilal]

The number of cars sold in China is much higher than India which itself shows that an average Chinese earns and spends more than an average Indian
Their population is declining so much that Now they’re asking their people to produce more kids giving incentives to those who produce more kids still people don’t produce kids which again is a sign of prosperity

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[johnq]

The number of cars sold in China is much higher than India which itself shows that an average Chinese earns and spends more than an average Indian

No, that is incorrect. Most of the cars in China are owned by leasing companies which lease cars out to drivers that work for ride share companies. These guys are not rich, and they live pay check to pay check. I remember reading how one driver committed suicide last year because his company did not give him his paycheck even after working overtime.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

GDP numbers can be artificially inflated but you can’t say same about the FOREX reserves , Air Passenger Traffic , Consumption of vehicles , consumption of petrol , diesel , steel , copper, concrete , plastic , etc

1. Yes they have used all those resources to build that 30% excess capacity that remains UN utilized forever. this is not the fudging part. Empty cities, shopping malls, commercial buildings, dead roads, bridges to nowhere etc. Now is that gdp? Technically yes but do these assets produce any future value. No.
2. Forex reserves = they are just maintaining 12 months of imports like we do. Just their import scale is large.

You can read for yourself how high their office vacancy rates are in their top cities (20-25%) pre-pandemic days. Yet they continue to build skyscrapers and business districts in tier 1 and the hopelessly empty tier 2 cities as well. Is this GDP sustainable?

High office vacancy rates trouble China

China

www.bangkokpost.com

Compare this to Bangalore where only 5% was vacant pre-pandemic.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Maybe but situation in India is even worst
Gap between rich and poor in India is much bigger than what it is in China

This is the same for all nations especially the developing world which China and India belongs to. Whether it is Mexico, Brazil, South Africa or India and China, developing nations have income distribution issues that are worse than developed nations -- especially socialist developed ones like Sweden or Denmark.

The one big difference between China and other developing nations is the infrastructure like HSR, highways and metros which benefits the poor far more than the rich. This facilitates trade between Chinese towns and provinces and between them and cities in other countries which leads to income growth for the poor.

This is why China builds infrastructure and "ghost" cities even when people in the West say they can never get a return from them. That is rich people thinking lol.

Ghost cities in China almost always fill up over time because they are cheap in the beginning since they are excess capacity and anything in excess is cheap. This benefits the poor over the rich and is a big reason why China grows.

People who thinks that China overbuilds don't understand this concept. It is really an income re-distribution program for the poor in China. Rich people in most developing nations won't open their pockets for public transportation and infrastructure because it benefits the poor and taxes them. And also rich people like to kept resources scarce and expensive to increase their net worth.

But here is China building out whole cities which makes resources available and inexpensive!

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

No, that is incorrect. Most of the cars in China are owned by leasing companies which lease cars out to drivers that work for ride share companies. These guys are not rich, and they live pay check to pay check. I remember reading how one driver committed suicide last year because his company did not give him his paycheck even after working overtime.

And what about passenger traffic by air ?

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

This is the same for all nations especially the developing world which China and India belongs to. Whether it is Mexico, Brazil, South Africa or India and China, developing nations have income distribution issues that are worse than developed nations -- especially socialist developed ones like Sweden or Denmark.

The one big difference between China and other developing nations is the infrastructure like HSR, highways and metros which benefits the poor far more than the rich. This facilitates trade between Chinese towns and provinces and between them and cities in other countries which leads to income growth for the poor.

This is why China builds infrastructure and "ghost" cities even when people in the West say they can never get a return from them. That is rich people thinking lol.

Ghost cities in China almost always fill up over time because they are cheap in the beginning because they represent excess capacity and anything in excess is cheap. This benefits the poor over the rich and is a big reason why China grows.

China once proposed a high speed rail corridor between Delhi and Beijing via Kathmandu

 

[johnq]

The bottom line is if China were truly a world beater, they would have no problem having a relatively free media, individual (not group) tourism, welcoming scrutiny by international organization, transparent data, not buying articles in western publications, taking down the millions of surveillance cameras, controlling social media propaganda etc. The fact remains that a lot of Chinese systems are a failure and they have no option but to keep everything hidden from their masses and the outside world.

You're exactly right. Chinese Communist Party (CCP) shows only the shiny cities with the wealthy businessmen while hiding the dark underbelly of its problems, mainly because the problems are a result of inequities of a system through which CCP members, their families, friends, business associates and employees benefit. But the CCP in big cities do well precisely because they keep most of the profits while the lower level workers work for sustenance wages and the slaves for next to nothing.

The real difference between India and China is that India is at least willing to acknowledge its problems and then try to implement strategies for course correction. And this is only possible because of India's democratic system. But China's entire system is built on pure thuggery by the CCP and its operatives, whether through the police or the military. So while the top 6 percent of the population and their families, friends and employees enjoy the city life with high speed rails, etc, the lower 50 percent of the population live below poverty or near poverty level.

PS, note how quickly the CCP members/propagandists appear to defend their system, because they don't want anything to take away their or their families' wealth. Of course they have also been brainwashed their entire lives to never question the CCP.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

This is the same for all nations especially the developing world which China and India belongs to. Whether it is Mexico, Brazil, South Africa or India and China, developing nations have income distribution issues that are worse than developed nations -- especially socialist developed ones like Sweden or Denmark.

The one big difference between China and other developing nations is the infrastructure like HSR, highways and metros which benefits the poor far more than the rich. This facilitates trade between Chinese towns and provinces and between them and cities in other countries which leads to income growth for the poor.

This is why China builds infrastructure and "ghost" cities even when people in the West say they can never get a return from them. That is rich people thinking lol.

Ghost cities in China almost always fill up over time because they are cheap in the beginning because they represent excess capacity and anything in excess is cheap. This benefits the poor over the rich and is a big reason why China grows.

Please..that’s a massive lie. The CCP does not give two hoots about the poor Chinese. Lol. It was all done to overinflate gdp.

Read the last paragraph here to understand how poorly the CCP compensates its poor masses from flood damage - for losses suffered as large as $2.5 billion, the CCP set aside a measly compensation of $240 million.

'Everything is gone.' Flooding in China ruins farmers and risks rising food prices

By this time of year, the rice-growing on Bao Wentao’s family farm should have been ready to harvest. Instead, heavy flooding has engulfed huge swathes of southern China, including more than 36 acres of rice fields that 19-year-old Bao and his father tend to in their village near Poyang Lake...

www.winknews.com

China uses $1.69 as the absolute poverty level, much below the $1.99 recommended by the UN. India uses $1.99. And then emperor Xi declares the great nation has zero poverty. If the CCP gave even a little bit of respect to poor people they wouldn’t play such dangerous games with the poor Chinese.

China Claims It Has Eliminated Poverty But Is That True?

As state-run media trumpet milestone to burnish President Xi Jinping’s image ahead of the Communist Party’s 100th anniversary in July, many remain in dire circumstances, according to international standards

www.voanews.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-poverty-economy-growth/2021/02/25/9e92cb18-7722-11eb-9489-8f7dacd51e75_story.html

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

And what about passenger traffic by air ?

They will have more. Even a 30% discounted China still has more middle class than we do.

 

[Tang]

I don’t believe in this IQ thing either but no one can deny that Chinese are smart
the economic and millitary might of China is next only to USA
Indian economy is only 1/5th of China on nominal terms and about half on PPP

If economy is the criteria for IQ then Qatar and Luxembourg ppl etc. Have the highest IQ in the world
Don't being a stupid on the internet.

 

[Tang]

Actually, China runs deficits with MANY nations -- Australia, South Korea, Malaysia, etc. Even with India for a long time.

Trade is used to facilitate things that makes your economy grow whether import or export. Trading nations tend to be wealthy. Non-trading nations tend to be much poorer.

The more you trade, the more opportunity to grow. That is why China trade -- a lot!

Still doesn't negate my point, your countries are not even handful, but deficit list is most the countries of the world.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Please..that’s a massive lie. The CCP does not give two hoots about the poor Chinese. Lol. It was all done to overinflate gdp.

Okay, you keep on believing that. Infrastructure like HSR and six lane highways and ports benefits the common man.

Why would China build "ghost" cities for the rich? You don't see wealthy people building infrastructure in other developing nations.

China builds infrastructure for its poor. That is why China grows year after year.

And that is why China has more tourists visiting the world and more students studying overseas than any other country though it is still relatively undeveloped (wait till it is fully developed!)

But you tend to ignore them until there is some story about the ugly Chinese tourist splashing water on an airline hostess or some poor Chinese student being accused of spying You ever wonder why so many Chinese are able to travel and attend college in the West at full tuition? Or again you simply ignore the fact? lol

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Okay, you keep on believing that. Infrastructure like HSR and six lane highways and ports benefits the common man.

Why would China build "ghost" cities for the rich? You don't see wealthy people building infrastructure in other developing nations.

China builds infrastructure for its poor. That is why China grows year after year.

And that is why China has more tourists visiting the world and more students studying overseas than any other country though it is still relatively undeveloped (wait till it is fully developed!)

But you tend to ignore them until there is some story about the ugly Chinese tourist splashing water on an airline hostess or some poor Chinese student being accused of spying You ever wonder why so many Chinese are able to travel and attend college in the West at full tuition? Or again you simply ignore the fact? lol

There are so many holes in your arguments.
HSR was built to reduce reliance on western planes. You think the CCP built the HSR into Lhasa to help the occupied Tibetans, who are under extreme oppression and thrown into the filthiest jails and get tortured to death and their organs harvested?
The ghost cities were built to make the people who produce cement, steel and bankers who finance these deals wealthy. Invariably all these contracts are secured by people affiliated with the party. Stock markets in China indulge in massive fraud and poor retail Chinese investors have lost so much money there. Macau is used to hugely launder money of the CCP bosses. Spinning all this as helping the poor is such a cruel joke on the poor.
No one is saying that China does not have a very large middle class. You are conflating things.
What is being criticized is that a large portion of the growth is not real. And that a huge amount of fraud, stealing, low quality production, crazy things like wet markets, fraud research papers, toxic pollution leading to cancer villages etc happens in China. The poor have no rights and are treated like meat. Bad policies like one child policy have ripped apart the country’s social fabric. The country is an utter dystopia. And the CCP tries to hide all this aggressively but gets busted quickly. And then uses its bot army and paid off news media to publish some insane propaganda on the lines of what Nazis did.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Jobless from the degree mill I guess. Goes to show you cannot just keep on producing excess volumes of everything.

 

[johnq]

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) bots come here and repeat the same propaganda points over and over again. How there are so many Chinese students in western universities, etc. paying full tuition? But there are 2 parts to that answer. The first one has to do with western universities' greed for money combined with wealthy CCP officials paying full tuition in addition to donating extra money to get their kids in big name universities. The second has to do with the massive espionage system being run by the CCP which sends the smartest Chinese students to western universities in order to steal intellectual property (IP) from those universities. But greasing the right palms with money in western universities makes all that possible. It's not for nothing that there are all these Confucius institutes which operate like CCP spy handling rings. Of course it all pays off in the end when CCP gains new IP which it uses to make billions through its corporations. The same is true of Chinese tourists and workers who are often working as CCP-funded spies to steal IP.
But brainwashed CCP bots never ask the other question: Why can't China educate all of its college students at home? Why does China have to send its students to universities in western countries that it hates so much like the US? To steal IP of course.
The wealthy CCP officials don't care about the poor in China; all the poverty alleviation programs are massive money laundering schemes that funnel money to CCP officials' pockets. The money rarely ever reaches the poor, even if it shows it on paper.
This is also true of tofu buildings and infrastructure built using shoddy materials which breaks down after a few years. They are all money eating sinkholes through which CCP officials profit. Corruption runs throughout the CCP system in China.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

China is now struggling with declining population

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[SexyChineseLady]

There are so many holes in your arguments.
HSR was built to reduce reliance on western planes. You think the CCP built the HSR into Lhasa to help the occupied Tibetans, who are under extreme oppression and thrown into the filthiest jails and get tortured to death and their organs harvested?
The ghost cities were built to make the people who produce cement, steel and bankers who finance these deals wealthy. Invariably all these contracts are secured by people affiliated with the party. Stock markets in China indulge in massive fraud and poor retail Chinese investors have lost so much money there. Macau is used to hugely launder money of the CCP bosses. Spinning all this as helping the poor is such a cruel joke on the poor.
No one is saying that China does not have a very large middle class. You are conflating things.
What is being criticized is that a large portion of the growth is not real. And that a huge amount of fraud, stealing, low quality production, crazy things like wet markets, fraud research papers, toxic pollution leading to cancer villages etc happens in China. The poor have no rights and are treated like meat. Bad policies like one child policy have ripped apart the country’s social fabric. The country is an utter dystopia. And the CCP tries to hide all this aggressively but gets busted quickly. And then uses its bot army and paid off news media to publish some insane propaganda on the lines of what Nazis did.

There are no holes in the world's largest number of tourists and overseas students or the world's largest foreign car market for auto firms (Benz, BMW, GM, Tesla.) A nation either has the money or it doesn't. You cannot fake it.

Building "ghost" cities and infrastructure takes money. Most developing nations can't build one new neighborhood never mind many cities because there is no capital.

To build many "ghost" cities takes a lot of wealth to start with. It is like the overseas tourists and students. You either have money to build a city or you don't.

China has that money today because it built infrastructure years ago that provides growth. Any country building "ghost" cities without return would have bankrupted decades ago. But China builds infrastructure and "ghost" cities decade after decade that fill up and produce enough wealth for the next round of infrastructure and "ghost" cities.

You people try to imagine impossible things for China like sending the world's largest number of tourists across the globe with "fake" money to spend in foreign countries or building whole "ghost" cities with "fake" money. lol

Money can't be faked. And China is still a developing nation with many poor. If every Chinese were as wealthy as Shanghai or Beijing, China's GDP would be 3 or 4 times that of the US. Or course, it is not at that point yet. So of course there is income disparity. About 600 million Chinese are yet urbanized. The Ghost Cities will urbanize them

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

There are no holes in the world's largest number of tourists and overseas students or the world's largest foreign car market for auto firms (Benz, BMW, GM, Tesla.) A nation either has the money or it doesn't. You cannot fake it.

Building "ghost" cities and infrastructure takes money. Most developing nations can't build one new neighborhood never mind many cities because there is no capital.

To build many "ghost" cities takes a lot of wealth to start with. It is like the overseas tourists and students. You either have money to build a city or you don't.

China has that money today because it built infrastructure years ago that provides growth. Any country building "ghost" cities without return would have bankrupted decades ago. But China builds infrastructure and "ghost" cities decade after decade that fill up and produce enough wealth for the next round of infrastructure and "ghost" cities.

You people try to imagine impossible things for China like sending the world's largest number of tourists across the globe with "fake" money to spend in foreign countries or building whole "ghost" cities with "fake" money. lol

Money can't be faked. And China is still a developing nation with many poor. If every Chinese were as wealthy as Shanghai or Beijing, China's GDP would be 3 or 4 times that of the US. Or course, it is not at that point yet. So of course there is income disparity. About 600 million Chinese are yet urbanized. The Ghost Cities will urbanize them

I think you totally missed the point. But then that is a CCP bot trait. it is already pointed out that China has a bigger middle class who can spend. Ordos, the giant ghost city, remains largely empty still. Shopping malls and amusement centers are abandoned still and have all fallen into ruins. So, no your argument is false. Ghost cities have become uninhabitable, meaning the CCP model of filling them up has failed, which it is bound to. All that these ghost cities have done is made party-affiliated people rich. Like I said many of CCP’s growth models are a complete failure, leaving the country with a lot of excess capacity that are now unusable and have to be written off as bad debts. The reality is the majority of Chinese have not been able to make enough moneys to afford these apartments. And they couldn’t make enough as CCP’s economic model has failed with wages stagnant and rising unemployment.
Now, with alternate supply chains forming around the world, especially in India , Chinese growth is at serious risk to ever get these low wage laborers into proper middle class.

see below of such shining examples :

the real reason why these ruined, uninhabitable ghost towns are built is to make money for the CCP. The CCP depends on lease revenues from land (as we all know the CCP owns all land in China in yet another gross violation of human rights) to run all its evil schemes.So, it incentivizes builders to bid for land at steep lease rates who then build tofu buildings, which then becomes unaffordable for the 70% of Chinese who are making $5 per day or below. With food insecurity now a huge problem, these serfs and peasants are even more fucked. So, no the ghost cities are unlikely to be ever occupied. The 30% excess capacity gdp has to be written off one way or another. That’s why the whole world puts a 30% discount on all Chinese economic numbers.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

I think you totally missed the point. But then that is a CCP bot trait. it is already pointed out that China has a bigger middle class who can spend. Ordos, the giant ghost city, remains largely empty still.

That big middle class came from a country that didn't have one in 1971.

You are doing magical thinking. If the Chinese economy did not grow massively then how did that middle class can about!

And you try making money by building uninhabitable shacks on your frontlawn! If China wanted to make money for the rich CCP why not just print more money and give it to themselves? Why go through the whole process of building whole cities and, worse, spend hard currency to import iron ore and other material. What you say makes no economic sense.

Btw, this is Ordos "Ghost" City today:

Quote:
I come in peace Rest in piece:

The so-called 'ghost city' looks more alive than most Russian City

1 week ago1