China and India should and will be friends

[Ray]

Yes, when Nehru was talking about Sino-india friendship, he refused the suggestion of diplomatic negotiation from china. Instead, he started his 'forward policy' to throw chinese soldier out of their post. Is that how indian treat his friends?

How kind of China.

China pursues expansionism and then wants to talk India out of this fact and jaw jaw about how good the Chinese are = talk on endlessly and, in the meantime, continue to occupy and consolidate.

Good friends, what?

The world has realised to their own chagrin that China is an imperialist expansionist nation that throws pious platitudes to obfuscate and throw a smoke screen.

Ask Vietnam, Japan and the other Nations whose islands and territory China has laid claim to or captured by subterfuge!

Most Chinese don't think Indian is enemy. Believe or not, China's government is in no mood to attack India either. They are worrying about being attacked instead of attacking someone else. You should focus your enthusiasms on more important tasks that can make India a more powerful and peaceful force in today's world, to prevent war not to promote war.

So China is worried that they can be attacked?

That is why they are expanding their territory?

 

[kickok1975]

dõ i look like a guy ? heheheheh
yes - ok its a great forum here and we can enjoy freedom of speech here rather than in real life - so we tend to go ahead with it - as for making india a more powerful nation - rahter instead most indians are more interested in alleviating poverty - to be pwerful was never our anmbition but we were forced into it partly by nehru's mistake regarding Dalai , at the beginning and then with that bad start, it now is hard to re-satart a new relationship with the important country china. If they could return some of the terroitory of AC ( Aksai chin ) tath would be a great symbolic gesture - plus define the border once and for all as the present line of contriol and the adjustment at AC - failing that the border situation remains unresolved and all the possibilities of hostilities remain still . other than those two moves i doubt anyone in india exept some corrupt few would really listen when prc claims to be a friend.

i might addd no one in india wants war wioth anyone - it's costly etc etc but for prc to saythey are a friend and to be taken seriously has top be backed with actions as i listed above - mere words at this stage are insufficient .

I'm sorry said you as men if you are a girl (A beautiful girl from photo). There are some guys here like girls images and I assumed most girls wouldn't be interested in military topics. I guess I'm wrong.

Anyway, by all means I support a permanent border settlement between India and China. I'm not a representative of government and I can only speak for myself. But I want to let friends here know what regular Chinese think about Inida.

 

[kickok1975]

The real issue is not war. War is almost never going to happen based on current technology. The issue is the mistrust, and the continual tension that it generates. It ends up being almost as destructive as war. The situation is further complexed by the attitudes of us Indians - if you shake the hand of the Chinese, count how many fingers you take back!

Agree, mistrust is as deadly as war.

 

[kickok1975]

How kind of China.

China pursues expansionism and then wants to talk India out of this fact and jaw jaw about how good the Chinese are = talk on endlessly and, in the meantime, continue to occupy and consolidate.

Good friends, what?

The world has realised to their own chagrin that China is an imperialist expansionist nation that throws pious platitudes to obfuscate and throw a smoke screen.

Ask Vietnam, Japan and the other Nations whose islands and territory China has laid claim to or captured by subterfuge!



So China is worried that they can be attacked?

That is why they are expanding their territory?

Ray, I know where you come from and understand your points. You are right, India and China is not true friend for now. But it doesn't mean we can't be in the future. My post is based on our future relationship which I believe tends to be more optimistic than pessimistic based on a lot of shared interest we have. We were good neighbors for thousand years and why can't we in the future?

You can continue treating China as enemy but most people maybe yourself included don't want a war. A war between India and China would be devastating and no winner. Our current problem is lack of trust, which makes you suspect any move by the other. Even I published a good intention post you would suspect my motivation. How could we get along with? In your eyes China is always evil and expansionist and India is always victim. I don't want to argue with you but you should know hate can only create problem, not to solve it. I hope you can join force people who promote communication and understanding. It's your choice though.

 

[no smoking]

How kind of China.

China pursues expansionism and then wants to talk India out of this fact and jaw jaw about how good the Chinese are = talk on endlessly and, in the meantime, continue to occupy and consolidate.

Good friends, what?

The world has realised to their own chagrin that China is an imperialist expansionist nation that throws pious platitudes to obfuscate and throw a smoke screen.

Ask Vietnam, Japan and the other Nations whose islands and territory China has laid claim to or captured by subterfuge!

So, what ever india claims must belong to india. There is no noe should argue with india about anything. What a wonderful country.

 

[redragon]

Agree, mistrust is as deadly as war.

still believing in "trust"?
Trust is not a good ground to play the great game in international relationship, interest is, you may have heard that China has more than 50% shares in the joint ventures , which are established for building infrastructures, with south-eastern asian countries. This will make sure the interests of all these countries tied up closly with that of China, this is how the game being played.

 

[redragon]

So, what ever india claims must belong to india. There is no noe should argue with india about anything. What a wonderful country.

In negotiation, you have to always post a strong gesture, such as "this is non negotiable" or "over my dead body", people doing so to get upper hands only, the real deal will be reached by exchange some interests and weight in the power or strength of both parties.
Inidan are very good at this, on the other hand, Chinese always shy away from asking what we want orally but taking firm action in actual move.

 

[kickok1975]

In negotiation, you have to always post a strong gesture, such as "this is non negotiable" or "over my dead body", people doing so to get upper hands only, the real deal will be reached by exchange some interests and weight in the power or strength of both parties.
Inidan are very good at this, on the other hand, Chinese always shy away from asking what we want orally but taking firm action in actual move.

redragon, I believe a negotiation called "Win-Win", not "Win-lose" or "lose-lose". Of course in today's world people even countries still enjoy playing "jungle rule". And I hope India, China can reach a "Win-Win" solution.

 

[redragon]

redragon, I believe a negotiation called "Win-Win", not "Win-lose" or "lose-lose". Of course in today's world people even countries still enjoy playing "jungle rule". And I hope India, China can reach a "Win-Win" solution.

Haha, you are cute, the world in your eyes is so black and white, it's easy to make judgement when there is a clear cut between win or lose, but have you consider the situations when a negotiation is about who wins more or who lose less? as a matter of fact, gray is the dominating color not black or white in real world.
And unfortunatly, if you study history you will see countless cases that one side of a game bleed badly while the other side won everything, your nice words won't change anything but your own mindset, hopefully this won't be a irrevisable process for you, to avoid being in that kind of situation, the solution for you is to read more history from different sources and do some serious research before you buy any idea

 

[Ray]

So, what ever india claims must belong to india. There is no noe should argue with india about anything. What a wonderful country.

Not quite,

Whatever anyone claims is not theirs.

We, anyway, don't argue. Poor upbringing is an indication of one wanting to argue.

Good upbringing indicates a desire to discuss.

India discusses.

That said, the territory belonged to India.

Aksai Chin and Arunachal are parts of India.

India is an amalgamate of various people, cultures and traditions and it has not come about by Indian expansion.

But, as I have earlier on many occasion posted here that China is basically the original Han land, which is North of the Yellow River.

The remainder of China are lands usurped through imperialism, followed by cultural and linguistic genocide, converting the indigenous population to adopted Han culture, beliefs and language to make them into one undistinguishable human mass. China's attempt to do so with the Tibetans and Uighurs are so apparent that it does not require recall.

Therefore, for China to declare alien lands as a part of China is but a fallout of their imperialist and expansionist mindset and arrogance.

Unlike India, all communities practice their own language, culture and religious beliefs and that is guaranteed by the democratic infrastructure that we have.

 

[Ray]

Ray, I know where you come from and understand your points. You are right, India and China is not true friend for now. But it doesn't mean we can't be in the future. My post is based on our future relationship which I believe tends to be more optimistic than pessimistic based on a lot of shared interest we have. We were good neighbors for thousand years and why can't we in the future?

You can continue treating China as enemy but most people maybe yourself included don't want a war. A war between India and China would be devastating and no winner. Our current problem is lack of trust, which makes you suspect any move by the other. Even I published a good intention post you would suspect my motivation. How could we get along with? In your eyes China is always evil and expansionist and India is always victim. I don't want to argue with you but you should know hate can only create problem, not to solve it. I hope you can join force people who promote communication and understanding. It's your choice though.

India come from the of haunts of coot and hern; it makes a sudden sally, And sparkle out among the fern, To bicker down a valley. By thirty hills India hurries down, Or slip between the ridges; By twenty thorps, a little town, And half a hundred bridges. Till last by the Bay India flows, To join the brimming sea; For men may come and men may go, But India goes on forever. I come from there!

That said, of course India and China can become friends, but given the events, it appears that is not in the offing in the near future.

Of course, we can dream of a future friendship, but one has to be pragmatic. One can say anything of China, but one can state that China is pragmatic. It pursues her National Interest with vigour and without caring what others have to say of China. I am but China's disciple in this matter.

Having seen war and its devastation and thereafter the fruitless politicking, I sure don't subscribe to wars. It achieves nothing in this modern world.

No I don't see China as evil and expansionist. The world sees China as expansionist, not because of a fallout of propaganda, but by China's own actions, which till date seems to be pursued with vigour. As far as China being evil, others may have that opinion. I don't. China, as I see, is following her National pursuits. It is uncomfortable at best. Evil is a wrong to use or harbour such a sentiment.

I personally find China an enigma and exciting a subject for observing. Its rich culture, customs etc have much to be learnt from!

I prefer Chinese food over others and have mastered the art of using chopsticks and even delicately picking up even the most difficult of morsel to eat.

Many who observe me wonder if I had lived in China to have this expertise. I even cook Chinese food, preferring to use the long cooking chopsticks!

I have no animus towards the country or people of China. They are wonderful. It is just that the policies that upsets me.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Ray sir I find Chinese to be just like us only thing they are more reserved compared to us.They seem to be overall a better bunch of people as individuals when compared to the scum across our western border.At most our differences ,rivalry may be sewrious but not unsolvable there is no religious poision in this cocktail

 

[kickok1975]

Haha, you are cute, the world in your eyes is so black and white, it's easy to make judgement when there is a clear cut between win or lose, but have you consider the situations when a negotiation is about who wins more or who lose less? as a matter of fact, gray is the dominating color not black or white in real world.
And unfortunatly, if you study history you will see countless cases that one side of a game bleed badly while the other side won everything, your nice words won't change anything but your own mindset, hopefully this won't be a irrevisable process for you, to avoid being in that kind of situation, the solution for you is to read more history from different sources and do some serious research before you buy any idea

Redragon, I'm not living in fantasy. I'm living in a realistic world full of "smart" people who think they know but they don't know.

Just like you said, there is no clear cut between black and white. How do you know you won but in fact you are actually the loser? Think about our Chinese government. How many times did they win by showing power, 1996 Taiwan Strait crisis, or recent core interest theory of South China Sea? How many times they try to intimidate people but only ignite resistance. We have too many people only recognize power, money and lack of humanity, sympathy due to years of no faith life and propaganda. That's why our society today is cold blood internally and disliked outside. No matter how powerful we are in the future, we can't against the whole world. We are one member of the world family. Get real friend.

By the way, I knew history pretty well.

 

[kickok1975]

India come from the of haunts of coot and hern; it makes a sudden sally, And sparkle out among the fern, To bicker down a valley. By thirty hills India hurries down, Or slip between the ridges; By twenty thorps, a little town, And half a hundred bridges. Till last by the Bay India flows, To join the brimming sea; For men may come and men may go, But India goes on forever. I come from there!

That said, of course India and China can become friends, but given the events, it appears that is not in the offing in the near future.

Of course, we can dream of a future friendship, but one has to be pragmatic. One can say anything of China, but one can state that China is pragmatic. It pursues her National Interest with vigour and without caring what others have to say of China. I am but China's disciple in this matter.

Having seen war and its devastation and thereafter the fruitless politicking, I sure don't subscribe to wars. It achieves nothing in this modern world.

No I don't see China as evil and expansionist. The world sees China as expansionist, not because of a fallout of propaganda, but by China's own actions, which till date seems to be pursued with vigour. As far as China being evil, others may have that opinion. I don't. China, as I see, is following her National pursuits. It is uncomfortable at best. Evil is a wrong to use or harbour such a sentiment.

I personally find China an enigma and exciting a subject for observing. Its rich culture, customs etc have much to be learnt from!

I prefer Chinese food over others and have mastered the art of using chopsticks and even delicately picking up even the most difficult of morsel to eat.

Many who observe me wonder if I had lived in China to have this expertise. I even cook Chinese food, preferring to use the long cooking chopsticks!

I have no animus towards the country or people of China. They are wonderful. It is just that the policies that upsets me.

Here you go, Ray. See the common grounds we share. Usually when we care a lot about one project, no matter good or bad, we have most interest to discover and know her. That's why there are Chinese friends here in this forum including me. And probably also explain why you know China so much.

 

[Ray]

Haha, you are cute, the world in your eyes is so black and white, it's easy to make judgement when there is a clear cut between win or lose, but have you consider the situations when a negotiation is about who wins more or who lose less? as a matter of fact, gray is the dominating color not black or white in real world.
And unfortunatly, if you study history you will see countless cases that one side of a game bleed badly while the other side won everything, your nice words won't change anything but your own mindset, hopefully this won't be a irrevisable process for you, to avoid being in that kind of situation, the solution for you is to read more history from different sources and do some serious research before you buy any idea

修身, 齊家, 治國, 平天下 (The student must first cultivate his moral character. Second, the scholar must get married and manage a harmonious household/family. Third, the scholar must become a bureaucrat by running a government. Finally, the scholar must pacify All under Heaven to become an Emperor.)
1. 君權天授 (Translation: The King, or Emperor, is appointed by and derives power from Heaven.)
2. 天壇 The Temple of Heaven, where only Kings, or emperors are allowed to perform ritual prayers and make offerings to Heaven.
3. 聽天由命 (Translation: All mortals, or Baixing, must obey the order of Heaven(天命).
4. 天朝 (Translation: the Celestial Court), since the mandate is granted by Heaven, it is only natural to name the Imperial Court the Celestial or Heavenly Court.
If this is the Chinese ancient philosophy then where is the space for any colour of the rainbow?

On the other hand, "one side of a game bleed badly while the other side won everything" as you point out.

China is the best example to prove that you are right.

China has bled the people South of the Yellow River and the Hans won and went on similar rampage to wrest land that was not their own. And that became irreversible since the cultural and linguistic genocide wiped out all traces of their ancient vestiges.

So, ask the people South of the Yellow River, the so called 'barbarians' the difference between Hua 華 and Yi 夷 (barbarian). An example of the barbarians:
In the early 1600s, the local government in west Huguang Province built a 190-kilometer-long wall—the "South Great Wall"—in the "Miao territory". This wall divided the local Miao people into two sections: the defiant "raw Miao" outside the wall in the northwest and the compliant "cooked Miao" inside the wall in the southeast. While it segregated the former, it associated the latter with the Han Chinese.
So the shengfan (raw barbarians) and the shufan would be the best to showcase their plight consequent to what game that was played on them to bleed them and make them Hans, through humiliating activities of the Hans to make them forget their culture and language and make them 'civilised' Hans!!

I could go on, but then why don't you read "The discourse of race in modern China" by Frank Dikötter? Or for that matter, An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of China By James Stuart Olson

 

[Ray]

And probably also explain why you know China so much.

Kickok,

Do you really subscribe to the view that I know about China because of the Chinese posters here?

What I write is hardly what a Chinese (who actually knows not much about China beyond the Chinese propaganda machine's explanatory verbiage and disinformation) would like one to know about!

Hence, my knowledge of China has hardly been enhanced by the Chinese here!

As I said, China fascinates me and so I learn through study, if one can call it so!

I Am that I Am אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה

 

[kickok1975]

Kickok,

Do you really subscribe to the view that I know about China because of the Chinese posters here?

What I write is hardly what a Chinese (who actually knows not much about China beyond the Chinese propaganda machine's explanatory verbiage and disinformation) would like one to know about!

Hence, my knowledge of China has hardly been enhanced by the Chinese here!

As I said, China fascinates me and so I learn through study, if one can call it so!

I Am that I Am אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה

You know China because you are interested in it. And looks like you really know a lot. You could be a good candidate in GOI to deal with China 

Regarding China's history, it is true China's history is full of war. But it is also a history of culture development and reconciliation. Over 90% of Chinese today claim they are Han Chinese. But most of their ancestors could trace back to some other ancient culture.

Han Chinese was not always aggressor. They were invaded, occupied numerous times by surrounding countries. It was their relatively advanced civilization always took the role of absorbing conqueror's culture.

 

[Ray]

It was their relatively advanced civilization always took the role of absorbing conqueror's culture.

By the token, the cow belt culture should be the Indian culture.

It is not!

Maybe, the cowbelt could learn something from Chinese history!

It is also correct that the Hans and the successors of the Shang Dynasty were also under attack in different times in history including that of the Western nations.

To wit, the First Opium War

During the First Opium War in the early-19th century, British forces temporarily held Shanghai. The war ended with the 1842 Treaty of Nanjing, which opened the treaty ports, Shanghai included, for international trade. Opium was the biggest import from the United Kingdom to China during this period. The industrialization of Great Britain and cotton production in the United States essentially destroyed the cotton industry of Shanghai. The backwardness of pre-1842 Shanghai only ended with an increase in trade due mostly to the Western powers. The Treaty of the Bogue, signed in 1843, and the Sino-American Treaty of Wanghia of 1844 together saw foreign nations achieve extraterritoriality on Chinese soil. These two treaties officially lasted until 1943, but were functionally defunct by the late 1930s. The treaties opened the floodgate of western culture and influence into Shanghai.


And then the Japanese!

As far as being a candidate for GOI on China, there are many people far more versed on China including understanding the inscrutable Chinese mind than me!

I am but a midget compared to such mandarins!

 

[amoy]

Again my 'cold peace' theory (most likely not anything new) :happy_2:

Before venturing into any 'friendship' we'd better not 'misread' each other's intent. Let's agree to differ.

India will continue promulgating Aksai Chin or Arunachal is India's. Or Mao or Zhou 'betrayed' Nehru. Or Nehru was 'naive' about Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai... Anyway, that's for domestic consumption.

No doubt India will keep on modernizing her defence and attribute that to an external threat i.e. China. Of course we read correctly India's ambition is far beyond being a 'counterbalance'.

Before a permanent solution our priority is ensure not to let those border disputes escalate... That's called cold peace

 

[kickok1975]

By the token, the cow belt culture should be the Indian culture.

It is not!

Maybe, the cowbelt could learn something from Chinese history!

It is also correct that the Hans and the successors of the Shang Dynasty were also under attack in different times in history including that of the Western nations.

To wit, the First Opium War

During the First Opium War in the early-19th century, British forces temporarily held Shanghai. The war ended with the 1842 Treaty of Nanjing, which opened the treaty ports, Shanghai included, for international trade. Opium was the biggest import from the United Kingdom to China during this period. The industrialization of Great Britain and cotton production in the United States essentially destroyed the cotton industry of Shanghai. The backwardness of pre-1842 Shanghai only ended with an increase in trade due mostly to the Western powers. The Treaty of the Bogue, signed in 1843, and the Sino-American Treaty of Wanghia of 1844 together saw foreign nations achieve extraterritoriality on Chinese soil. These two treaties officially lasted until 1943, but were functionally defunct by the late 1930s. The treaties opened the floodgate of western culture and influence into Shanghai.


And then the Japanese!

As far as being a candidate for GOI on China, there are many people far more versed on China including understanding the inscrutable Chinese mind than me!

I am but a midget compared to such mandarins!

You are humble, Ray. You are actually intelligent with clear mind. Welcome to China. To enjoy true Chinese food and her deep culture.