Can you eat beef and still be a "Hindu?"

If you eat beef, can you still be considered a "Hindu?"


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civfanatic

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In answer to Civ's question ,

In my Opinion Yes.

As long as u dont convert to some other religion you remain a Hindu for the law

Socially you may be a "Dharm Bhrasht" Hindu for some , but still a Hindu.
In retrospect, I think I should have phrased the question better. Obviously, since "Hinduism" does not have an organized religious establishment, your "membership" can never be revoked regardless of what you do. There are no bishops or ulema who can brand someone as a "non-Hindu".

Instead, the question should have been something like, "Is it proper for a Hindu to eat beef voluntarily, without any compulsion from external factors?".


I dont even know if there is any direct injunction in any of the Vedas or other texts considered as cornerstone of Hinduism, where eating beef is banned

Is there ?
According to some Hindus here, the Vedas explicitly ban beef-eating, and Indians were opposed to meat-eating since ancient times.
 

Cliff@sea

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1) You are right that the term "Hindu" was originally an ethnic and geographic term that refers to a particular "race" of people from a particular region rather than a religion, but it was not the Arab Muslims who first used the term. The earliest use of the term came almost 1,000 years earlier, in the Naqsh-e Rostam inscription of Darius the Great, where he mentions a land called Hindush as a province of his empire. This refers to the land of Sindh, with the Persians dropping the initial *s (Sanskrit Sindhu --> Persian Hindu). The Greek term Indus, as well as the Arabic term al-Hind, both derive from the Persian name (and, in turn, from the original Sanskrit).

Quite right and thank you for the more elaborate explanation.


2) Regardless of how the term Hindu was used in the past, since the last century the usage of the term has been overwhelmingly religious. The term Hindu, in modern everyday language, has only a religious meaning and not an ethnic one. For example, Europeans as recently as the 19th century were using the term "Hindu Christian" to refer to Christians of Indian origin (like Nasranis). Nowadays, however, the term "Hindu Christian" would be seen as an oxymoron, and the term "Indian Christian" would be used instead. In the past, the term "Hindu" meant basically the same thing as "Indian", but that is no longer the case.
While what u r saying is true ,
i am against this passive attitude that Indians in general apply towards self definition and leave the job largely to foreigners
It is for this reason we today have an India on one hand and a Bharat Mata on the other .
Its upto us what definition we chose to give to terms such as Hindu or Hindi.

Equating faith with ethnic identity has never worked well for any race or religion and i wish Indians stop doing the same.


3)The term "Sanatama Dharma", as a name for the Hindu "religion", was coined only in the 19th century by Arya Samaj. No ancient Indian text refers to a religion called "Sanatama Dharma".
Agree , but then i was speaking for present day Hindus only.

4) Any similarity between Om and the Arabic word Allah is purely coincidental.
There is no such thing as a meaningless co incidence, especially in linguistics

5) The Medieval Islamic world was much more open-minded, innovative, and rational than the degenerate, self-righteous, and backwards cesspool that it is today. Medieval Muslim scholars definitely did not avoid Indian culture or Sanskrit; in fact, they readily studied Indian civilization and absorbed many aspects from it (the most important was probably the modern numeral system that we all use today). One of the most famous and influential Muslim scholars to study India was al-Beruni, who lived in the 10th-11th centuries. He spent some years in India, mastered Sanskrit, and wrote a comprehensive text on Indian culture, religion, science, and geography called the Tarikh al-Hind ("History of India").

Totally Agree except that i wouldnt go so far as to call present day muslims, 'degenerate'.
 
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Cliff@sea

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Instead, the question should have been something like, "Is it proper for a Hindu to eat beef voluntarily, without any compulsion from external factors?".

According to some Hindus here,
the Vedas explicitly ban beef-eating, and Indians were opposed to meat-eating since ancient times.

Really ?

I am rather interested now ,
Exactly which text makes Beef eating "improper" for a Dwij or even a Hindu
 

A chauhan

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Show me what the SC said, that was my query. I am utterly fascinated by this talk of "way of life". I want to know why 'Hinduism' is a "way of life" and not a "religion", in the words of the SC. I want to know why other religions cannot be considered "ways of life" as well. Why can't you people respond to my actual questions? You yourself are the one who brought up the SC, so tell me what they said on the matter.
Kindly go and ask the same to the judges of the constitutional bench, I am not willing to do your homework in one of the most idiotic threads of this forum.

Do you think KSA is the only country in the world where a majority of the population follow an Abrahamic religion?

KSA is a de facto theocracy with an officially sanctioned state religion. Any theocratic country with an official state religion will be repressive, but not all Abrahamic countries (i.e. countries where a majority of the population follow an Abrahamic religion) are theocracies, or even have a state religion.
Were we debating on the govt. system? what should I do with the nature of the theocracy ? you have lost your argument.

Are you claiming that upper castes and outcastes could always gather in the same temples, and participate in all the same religious activities?
Off course I have witnessed that with my own eyes.

I am indeed confused because not a single Hindu has provided a definition, even after repeated queries. Singh's definition is the best so far.
Your basic problem is that 1. you do not know what is Hinduism, 2. you do not know who is a Hindu, 3. still you are interested to know whether a person can remain Hindu after eating a beef or not. 4. you have been clearly and specifically answered by me and many members here that there is no apostate in Hinduism, but it is not getting into your head. It proves one thing you are here to make joke of Hindus and Hinduism in the threads you like.

If you define a religion associating it with religious riots and blood shed then I pity on your understanding.

The very fact that we were not free, shows we did not have good systems and structures.
No, it doesn't show anything like that, it shows that the religion of the invaders were barbaric and imperialistic in the nature and approach, unlike Hinduism.

You will never understand this, so I am probably wasting my time.
Actually you have wasted the time of not only me but all the forum members here by opening an idiotic thread.

Do you want to say that there are no Hindus in India?
 

A chauhan

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There is no definition to a "Hindu" either given by law or sc, its is all subjective. Way of life is not a definition, every religion is a way of life for its believers..the definition must differentiate.

The most interesting being sec 2 sub clause 1(c), sec 2 sub clause 2 and sec 2 sub clause 3 hma read together which states:

- to any other person domiciled in the territories to which this Act extends who is not a Muslim, Christian, Parsi or Jew by religion, unless it is proved that any such person would not have been governed by the Hindu law or by any custom or usage as part of that law in respect of any of the matters dealt with herein if this Act had not been passed.

- Notwithstanding anything contained in sub-section (1),nothing contained in this Act shall apply to the members of any Scheduled Tribe within the meaning of clause (25) of Article 366 of the Constitution unless the Central Government, by notification in the Official Gazette, otherwise directs.

- The expression "Hindu" in any portion of this Act shall be construed as if it included a person who, though not a Hindu by religion, is, nevertheless, a person to whom this Act applies by virtue of the provisions contained in this section.

So ST is not muslim, christian, parsi, jew so he must be a "Hindu" and thus this act should apply to him according to sec 2(1)(c) but according to sec 2(2) & 2(3) he is not exactly a "Hindu" by "religion" so this act need not apply to him. Thus proving that there is no strict definition of being a "Hindu" it is flexible to absorb nearly all practices.

[PDF]http://bokakhat.gov.in/pdf/The_hindu_marriage_act.pdf[/PDF]
TM,
What the SC says becomes a law itself, it does not need to have an Act or a definition for the same, nature of the Hinduism and the definition of a Hindu are different things.
 

civfanatic

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While what u r saying is true ,
i am against this passive attitude that Indians in general apply towards self definition and leave the job largely to foreigners
It is for this reason we today have an India on one hand and a Bharat Mata on the other .
Its upto us what definition we chose to give to terms such as Hindu or Hindi.

Equating faith with ethnic identity has never worked well for any race or religion and i wish Indians stop doing the same.
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that "Hindus" should stop using the term "Hindu" to describe their religious practices? If so, I agree with that. Both the terms "Hindu" and "Indian" are of foreign origin and were not used by the people of the subcontinent itself to describe themselves, until fairly recent times.


There is no such thing as a meaningless co incidence, especially in linguistics
There is no linguistic similarity between the words om and Allah. You are talking about typographical similarities between the Devanagari ligature ॐ and the Arabic الله. Personally, I don't see much typographical similarity between the two, but even if there was, Devanagari script developed several centuries after Arabic script. The Indians in the 7th century, when Islam was founded, were not writing in Devanagari script, because it didn't exist at the time. Devanagari script emerged in the 13th century only.


Totally Agree except that i wouldnt go so far as to call present day muslims, 'degenerate'.
It may be a strong word, but the basic point I am trying to get across is that modern Muslims (a large portion of them) bring disgrace to the civilizational legacy bequeathed to them by their ancestors.
 

Virendra

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It may be a strong word, but the basic point I am trying to get across is that modern Muslims (a large portion of them) bring disgrace to the civilizational legacy bequeathed to them by their ancestors.
I'm not implying anything but those who talk of Ashrafs and Ajilafs make similar arguments. That the converted guys weren't up to the mark and were going to sink the boat.
A large portion of modern muslims are converts. Some a decade old .. some a few centuries.
 

civfanatic

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Kindly go and ask the same to the judges of the constitutional bench, I am not willing to do your homework in one of the most idiotic threads of this forum.
How exactly am I supposed to go ask the judges of the constitutional bench? I don't have access to the judges of the constitutional bench, and why would they respond to me anyway?

This is not "my" homework. I never brought up the SC. Since YOU brought up the SC, YOU should explain what they said on Hinduism. In case you forgot, this is what you said:
Yes, but actually as per the SC Hinduism is not a religion in the popular definition
If you can't explain what the SC said about Hinduism, then you shouldn't have mentioned them in the first place. You shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.


Were we debating on the govt. system? what should I do with the nature of the theocracy ? you have lost your argument.
Do you even know what you are debating? This is the statement that I made:
Religious minorities existed (and still exist) in plenty of societies that follow Abrahamic religions.
I never said ALL societies that follow Abrahamic religions are tolerant of religious minorities, I said that there are plenty that do (which there undoubtedly are). So the fact that a few countries like KSA have state religions and are quasi-theocracies, does not refute my argument whatsoever.


Off course I have witnessed that with my own eyes.
Have you witnessed the past 3000 years of Indian history also? Do you know what my statement was?
Are you claiming that upper castes and outcastes could always gather in the same temples, and participate in all the same religious activities?
You would also be lying to yourself if you say that casteist feelings no longer exist.


Your basic problem is that 1. you do not know what is Hinduism
Neither do you or other "Hindus".

2. you do not know who is a Hindu
Neither do you or other "Hindus".

3. still you are interested to know whether a person can remain Hindu after eating a beef or not.
I want to know what other people who call themselves "Hindu" think about the matter of eating beef.

However, I have already accepted that the OP question was not properly phrased. See my Post #162.

4. you have been clearly and specifically answered by me and many members here that there is no apostate in Hinduism, but it is not getting into your head. It proves one thing you are here to make joke of Hindus and Hinduism in the threads you like.
I never disputed that apostasy doesn't exist in "Hinduism", so I don't understand why that is a problem.

Also, how can I "make joke" [sic] of "Hindus and Hinduism", if I don't know who/what a "Hindu" is (according to you) or what "Hinduism" is (again, according to you)?


If you define a religion associating it with religious riots and blood shed then I pity on your understanding.
It was not my own definition, but another member's. But since you Hindus have failed to define your own beliefs in a coherent and organized manner (maybe because you can't?), I will go with the best available definition.


No, it doesn't show anything like that, it shows that the religion of the invaders were barbaric and imperialistic in the nature and approach, unlike Hinduism.
The "barbaric and imperialistic" invaders invaded many other lands besides India, and they were repulsed from them. Several countries that were ruled by Muslims for centuries (like Spain, Greece, and Turkey) are today much more developed than India, which was also ruled by Muslims for centuries. I have already discussed this plenty of times on other threads, but again, you will never understand so I am wasting my time. I mind as well be talking to a parrot or a cow.


Do you want to say that there are no Hindus in India?
I don't even know what a "Hindu" is (according to you), so how can I say that? I am trying to understand what a "Hindu" is, but none of you Hindus are providing clear, concrete definitions.
 

civfanatic

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I'm not implying anything but those who talk of Ashrafs and Ajilafs make similar arguments. That the converted guys weren't up to the mark and were going to sink the boat.
A large portion of modern muslims are converts. Some a decade old .. some a few centuries.
Maybe they're right. Newly-converted people tend to be more zealous (and hence, more stupid) than the rest, and maybe we're witnessing that on a large scale. Though that wouldn't explain why the heart of old Islamic civilization itself has also regressed and become backward.

There was a time when a scholar in the Islamic world could be openly atheist, openly criticize Islam, and openly engage in ultra-rational discourse with other scholars, without much fear. Nowadays, anyone doing that within the Islamic world would be killed in a mob or lynched. The days of al-Ma'arri, al-Razi, al-Warraq, and al-Rawandi are long gone.
 

Cliff@sea

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I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that "Hindus" should stop using the term "Hindu" to describe their religious practices? If so, I agree with that. Both the terms "Hindu" and "Indian" are of foreign origin and were not used by the people of the subcontinent itself to describe themselves, until fairly recent times.
Yes,

The term 'Hindu' as an indicator of faith is both misleading and inadequate ,

within "Hinduism" are cults that are a complete antithesis of each other,

using 'Hindu' as a universal label for all of them implies that they all follow largely the same path,
which these days cannot be further from truth.

i am actually quite in favour of terms like Hindu-Christian or Hindu-Muslim

In my head, the word 'Hindu' and 'Indian' are synonymous .

When a Hindu converts/reverts to Islam, he surely doesnt turn into an Arab, so what then happens to his racial identity ?
 
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Singh

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When a Hindu converts/reverts to Islam, he surely doesnt turn into an Arab, so what then happens to his racial identity ?
Not following this thread but an interesting tidbit
None of the Indian Muslims (Syeds etc) have predominant Arab genetic markers, in other words they are racially/genetically Indian.
 

A chauhan

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How exactly am I supposed to go ask the judges of the constitutional bench? I don't have access to the judges of the constitutional bench, and why would they respond to me anyway?

This is not "my" homework. I never brought up the SC. Since YOU brought up the SC, YOU should explain what they said on Hinduism. In case you forgot, this is what you said:


If you can't explain what the SC said about Hinduism, then you shouldn't have mentioned them in the first place. You shouldn't talk about things you don't know about.
The SC cases are all over the internet, you could have googled it but you want to involve me in this useless fruitless debate regarding Hindu apostate, and that is why I am not going to feed you through my hands. If something hurts you then it's not my problem.


Do you even know what you are debating? This is the statement that I made:


I never said ALL societies that follow Abrahamic religions are tolerant of religious minorities, I said that there are plenty that do (which there undoubtedly are). So the fact that a few countries like KSA have state religions and are quasi-theocracies, does not refute my argument whatsoever.
Do you realize that it was a response to your post ? I said "Thanks to our forefathers for keeping Hinduism unorganized, otherwise no Buddhism/Islam could have existed in India " I was quite correct in that statement but you rather than understanding it said "Religious minorities existed (and still exist) in plenty of societies that follow Abrahamic religions."

Now do you even understand why did I say that ? Muslims exist here with 14% population (after invading, looting and massacring ), if Hinduism were an organised religion they couldn't have existed in that high a percentage with lots of religious persecution; I said thatnks to our forefathers who kept Hinduism a tolerant religion, but it didn't get into your head :facepalm:

Have you witnessed the past 3000 years of Indian history also? Do you know what my statement was?
Do you have witnessed the same?

You would also be lying to yourself if you say that casteist feelings no longer exist.
When did I say that casteism is no more relevant ? I just said that expulsion from the caste doesn't equates to the apostate.

Neither do you or other "Hindus".


Neither do you or other "Hindus".
Do I need a certificate from you to remain a Hindu ??? I think you should ask some question to yourself "why I am disputing the Hindu beliefs and traditions? what I will get from this? why I need a definition of Hinduism ?" These things have been debated here in many threads, if you would have bothered to search and read the SC judgment you could easily have understood what they said about Hinduism.

I want to know what other people who call themselves "Hindu" think about the matter of eating beef.

However, I have already accepted that the OP question was not properly phrased. See my Post #162.
Thank you.
I never disputed that apostasy doesn't exist in "Hinduism", so I don't understand why that is a problem.
I also, in my very first post have said that there is no apostate in Hinduism, you are already aware that the SC itself found it tough to define what is Hinduism and who is a Hindu and after carefull evaluation they said that it can not be defined in a 'narrow' definition of a 'religion', Hinduism it was having strong bonds with the geographical territories of India, the SC meant Hinduism is something better than the narrow religions.

Also, how can I "make joke" [sic] of "Hindus and Hinduism", if I don't know who/what a "Hindu" is (according to you) or what "Hinduism" is (again, according to you)?
Hehe, good joke.

It was not my own definition, but another member's. But since you Hindus have failed to define your own beliefs in a coherent and organized manner (maybe because you can't?), I will go with the best available definition.
Lol! you called that definition "the best definition of Hinduism so far" now calling it someone else's definition. You will never understand what is Hinduism because Hinduism can not be defined in a "narrow" definition and you have a habit to see and judge all the faiths with the spectacles of Abrahmic religions, and bad habits doesn't go easily away. You are trying to solve a mathematical problem with a wrong formula.

The "barbaric and imperialistic" invaders invaded many other lands besides India, and they were repulsed from them. Several countries that were ruled by Muslims for centuries (like Spain, Greece, and Turkey) are today much more developed than India, which was also ruled by Muslims for centuries. I have already discussed this plenty of times on other threads, but again, you will never understand so I am wasting my time. I mind as well be talking to a parrot or a cow.
Then kindly go and talk with a parrot and cow they will be a good companion for you for a debate. And kindly migrate to Spain. Greece or Turkey if you love them so much. Muslims also ruled India, Pakistan and Bangladesh for centuries, then why are we poor? Pakistan is still ruled by Muslims why are they poor while majority of times Pakistan was under Muslim rule?

I don't even know what a "Hindu" is (according to you), so how can I say that? I am trying to understand what a "Hindu" is, but none of you Hindus are providing clear, concrete definitions.
Lol, according to me ? then what is a Hindu according to you ? Bhai sahab if you know what is Hinduism and Hindu then why are you asking the same? Moreover why any Hindu will try to teach you about this ? who are you ? are you paying money to the Hindus for this?

Now kindly do admit that you opened this thread to troll Hindus without any provocation.
 

Virendra

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Maybe they're right. Newly-converted people tend to be more zealous (and hence, more stupid) than the rest, and maybe we're witnessing that on a large scale. Though that wouldn't explain why the heart of old Islamic civilization itself has also regressed and become backward.
Probably because with passage of time, it became more and more exclusive. My way or the highway types.
Probably Islam was not yet established as a political instrument then?
Just guessing ...
 

Virendra

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"Thanks to our forefathers for keeping Hinduism unorganized, otherwise no Buddhism/Islam could have existed in India "
...
...
Now do you even understand why did I say that ? Muslims exist here with 14% population (after invading, looting and massacring ), if Hinduism were an organised religion they couldn't have existed in that high a percentage with lots of religious persecution; I said thanks to our forefathers who kept Hinduism a tolerant religion.
I think Hinduism being unorganized might have given political openings of rival abrahmic religions. But as far as the philosophy itself is concerned, this fluid unorganized nature is again the reason that Hinduism survived so well, after more than a millennia of persecution.
Most importantly, there is no nucleus that you can grab and attack. It's all in the air and it's everywhere .. like the grains of sand and the grass leaves.
In India this was the biggest issue faced by missionaries as well.

Regards,
Virendra
 

civfanatic

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The SC cases are all over the internet, you could have googled it but you want to involve me in this useless fruitless debate regarding Hindu apostate, and that is why I am not going to feed you through my hands. If something hurts you then it's not my problem.
Since you are refusing to provide any supporting evidence or elaboration, even after repeated queries (God knows why), I will throw out these following statement by you:
Yes, but actually as per the SC Hinduism is not a religion in the popular definition,
The H'ble SC said that "Hinduism can not be defined in the "narrow" definition of religion, it's a way of life".
Unless you provide the necessary links (you have not even provided the names of the relevant cases), I see no reason to believe any of your statements.

You clearly have no idea how to present an argument. You're telling ME to explain what YOU said? Lmao.


Do you realize that it was a response to your post ? I said "Thanks to our forefathers for keeping Hinduism unorganized, otherwise no Buddhism/Islam could have existed in India "
Do you realize that I made that statement precisely to show that your statement is irrelevant? Your statement is irrelevant because religious minorities exist and are tolerated in plenty of other societies where a majority follow Abrahamic religions. Moreover, you didn't even respond to the actual question that I posed.


Do you have witnessed the same?
I can present plenty of historical sources to prove you wrong. Not only from ancient times, but also from the 19th and early 20th century. It is actually astonishing that you are even arguing this.


When did I say that casteism is no more relevant ? I just said that expulsion from the caste doesn't equates to the apostate.
The point is that mechanisms for punishing violation of entrenched religious traditions or taboos have historically existed in both Abrahamic societies and "Hindu" society". In this respect, excommunication or being branded an apostate is indeed equivalent to expulsion from caste society and being branded an outcaste.


Do I need a certificate from you to remain a Hindu ??? I think you should ask some question to yourself "why I am disputing the Hindu beliefs and traditions? what I will get from this? why I need a definition of Hinduism ?" These things have been debated here in many threads, if you would have bothered to search and read the SC judgment you could easily have understood what they said about Hinduism.
The whole purpose of this thread is to find out what a "Hindu" actually is, and what a "proper Hindu" should or should not do. The specific example I used was eating beef.

Since I live in a free society, I can pose any question I wish and dispute any belief or tradition I wish. If you have a problem with it, or have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion, then don't respond to this thread. No one is forcing you to post here.


I also, in my very first post have said that there is no apostate in Hinduism, you are already aware that the SC itself found it tough to define what is Hinduism and who is a Hindu and after carefull evaluation they said that it can not be defined in a 'narrow' definition of a 'religion', Hinduism it was having strong bonds with the geographical territories of India, the SC meant Hinduism is something better than the narrow religions.
In fact, the term "Hinduism" is nothing more than a convenient catch-all term for a variety of religious practices that are indigenous to the Indian subcontinent. It is a simple function of geography, and not much more, as I have explained in a previous post:
civfanatic said:
What you are saying is that "Hinduism", as a modern religious grouping, has no real philosophical basis, since different "Hindus" can hold mutually exclusive, contradictory views (as on beef-eating, for example), and cannot agree on a simple definition of "Hinduism". The only thing connecting the various peoples called "Hindus" is geography, i.e. the fact that most of their belief systems originated from the Indian subcontinent. It would be like grouping together Norse paganism, Druidism, and Greco-Roman polytheism and calling it "Europeanism", or grouping together Zen Buddhism, Daoism, and Chinese tribal religions and calling it "Sinicism". Is there are any underlying ideology or belief that unites all "Hindus"?

Lol! you called that definition "the best definition of Hinduism so far" now calling it someone else's definition. You will never understand what is Hinduism because Hinduism can not be defined in a "narrow" definition and you have a habit to see and judge all the faiths with the spectacles of Abrahmic religions, and bad habits doesn't go easily away. You are trying to solve a mathematical problem with a wrong formula.
Actually, I am starting to think I am trying to solve a problem with no answer, since not a single Hindu is providing a single, concrete definition for his/her "religion". No one is disputing the posts that I previously made.


Then kindly go and talk with a parrot and cow they will be a good companion for you for a debate. And kindly migrate to Spain. Greece or Turkey if you love them so much. Muslims also ruled India, Pakistan and Bangladesh for centuries, then why are we poor? Pakistan is still ruled by Muslims why are they poor while majority of times Pakistan was under Muslim rule?
You again show an inability to use logical reasoning when your ridiculous claims are demolished. Let me briefly remind you how we got to this point of the debate:
1) First, you claimed that we are following Westernized structures because "we were slaves for long time".
2) I countered by saying that the very fact that we were "slaves", shows that we had poor structures and institutions. It is a basic fact of history that societies with strong structures and institutions eventually overcome those with poorer structures and institutions.
3) You then claimed that we were conquered only because the "religion of the invaders were barbaric and imperialistic". [sic]
4) I countered by showing examples of other societies that were also invaded by the same "barbaric and imperialistic" invaders, who nonetheless were able to repel them, develop their own successful systems and structures, and become developed nations today. The specific examples I mentioned were Spain, Greece, and Turkey.
5) Your response is that I should move to those countries. :rofl:

The reason why India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are so poor today has nothing to do with the fact that they were ruled by Muslims for centuries, because other countries that were also ruled by Muslims for centuries are rich and well-developed today. You see, I never claimed that being ruled by Muslims makes a country well-developed (that would be ridiculous), but you did claim that India did not develop its own structures and systems because it was "slaves for long time" and "religion of invaders was barbaric and imperialistic". So, I have basically debunked your argument.


Lol, according to me ? then what is a Hindu according to you ? Bhai sahab if you know what is Hinduism and Hindu then why are you asking the same? Moreover why any Hindu will try to teach you about this ? who are you ? are you paying money to the Hindus for this?

Now kindly do admit that you opened this thread to troll Hindus without any provocation.
I really do not know who/what a "Hindu" is and what "Hinduism" is. As I said before, that is why I opened this thread. I want other Hindus to enlighten me.
 

civfanatic

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I think Hinduism being unorganized might have given political openings of rival abrahmic religions. But as far as the philosophy itself is concerned, this fluid unorganized nature is again the reason that Hinduism survived so well, after more than a millennia of persecution.
Most importantly, there is no nucleus that you can grab and attack. It's all in the air and it's everywhere .. like the grains of sand and the grass leaves.
In India this was the biggest issue faced by missionaries as well.

Regards,
Virendra
Well, there are two implicit assumptions made in this post:
1) By stating that the "fluid, unorganized nature" of Hinduism is the reason why it survived, you are assuming that more organized religions could not survive in similar circumstances. It that were true, there would be no Christian in Spain, Portugal, Serbia, Greece or Bulgaria today, let alone over 10 million Christians in Egypt, right in the middle of the Arab world.

2) You are also assuming that Hinduism was able to "resist" conversions by nature of its fluidity. That claim does not entirely withstand scrutiny. The largest conversions in Islamic history, in terms of sheer numbers of people converted, took place in the Indian subcontinent. In particular, the conversion of East Bengal ranks as the single largest conversion in Islamic history. Indeed, the Indian subcontinent today has more Muslims than the whole West Asia (the heart and birthplace of Islam) combined.

Many people assume Islam "failed" in the Indian subcontinent simply by looking at religious percentages of India today (some 80% "Hindu" and 15% Muslim, though the percentage of Muslims is much higher if one takes into account Pakistan and Bangladesh as well, both also part of the Indian subcontinent). However, this view is flawed. Before continuing, some basic points need to be made:
1) In general, Islamization is a long, protracted process spanning many centuries. There were hardly any regions of the world where Islam was instantly accepted en masse.
2) In general, Islamization proceeds much faster in sparsely-populated regions with small populations (like much of West Asia), than in densely-populated regions with large populations (like the Indian subcontinent). This is simply because it takes less time to reach a "critical mass" of converts in societies with small populations, than in those with large populations.
3) Continuing from above, the rate of conversion generally tends to increase with increasing numbers of Muslims, especially once the "critical mass" of Muslims as percent of the total population is reached.

Using these three basic, logically-derived assertions, we can better understand the progress of Islamization in the Indian subcontinent.

First, we should understand that the India has always been far more densely populated than West Asia, Central Asia, and North Africa. This is true as of the present, but the difference in population was even more pronounced in the past. For example, around 1900, the population of Iran was less than 10 million, and that of Syria and Iraq combined around 5 million, whereas the population of India was over 300 million. What this means, is that conversions could take place faster in these regions, than in India. If 100,000 Indians covert to Islam (for example), this would have much less impact on the overall character of society than if, say, 100,000 Syrians or 100,000 Iraqis converted to Islam. Having a larger population means that more people need to be converted before the "critical mass" can be reached, which leads to a corresponding decline in the rate of Islamization (as a percent of the whole) compared to less-populated societies. This is just basic mathematics, and nothing too complicated.

To get a better understanding of this, we should compare the growth of Islam in India with its growth in other regions. It is a popular misconception that many regions in West Asia were Islamized very rapidly, following the Arab conquests. But in reality, as I mentioned in the first point above, Islamization is almost always a slow process. In Iran and Anatolia for example, which had historical populations just a fraction of India's, Islamization took several centuries. Iran possessed a large Muslim majority only by the end of the 11th century (four centuries after the initial Islamic conquest), and the Islamization of Anatolia also took about four centuries from the initial Turkish conquests. Given how large India's population was compared to that of Iran or Anatolia, it is only natural that Islamization (as a percent of total population, but NOT in terms of raw numbers) would take much longer.

I also find it quite interesting that you mentioned the cliche of Hinduism surviving "after more than a millennia of persecution", even after arguing against the notion that Muslims dominated North India from the 13th-18th centuries (which is just half a millennium). But even in that half a millennium, the numbers of Muslim converts were quite large; as mentioned previously, the population of Subcontinental Muslims is larger than most West Asian countries put together. The parts of the Indian subcontinent that really DID witness over one millennium of Islamic rule, such as Sindh, NWFP, and parts of Panjab, are all overwhelmingly Muslim today (90%+).
 

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@civfanatic at the time of Partition, Muslims were 15% of undivided India. Today Muslims would be 30% of undivided India.
 
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civfanatic

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@civfanatic at the time of Partition, Muslims were 15% of undivided India. Today Muslims would be 30% of undivided India.
How much of the increase in percent was due to conversions, and how much to higher birth rate? I'm guessing a combination of both played a role, with higher birth rate probably being more significant?
 
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Virendra

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1) By stating that the "fluid, unorganized nature" of Hinduism is the reason why it survived, you are assuming that more organized religions could not survive in similar circumstances.
: facepalm : No I am not. My point was not about abrahmic religions at all. My point solely was about why at a philosophic/intellectual level, the likes of missionaries couldn't succeed so well against Hinduism.
It had nothing to do with how more organized religions would fare against each other. They would fail or pass for their own reasons.
It is you who is assuming my friend.
It that were true, there would be no Christian in Spain, Portugal, Serbia, Greece or Bulgaria today, let alone over 10 million Christians in Egypt, right in the middle of the Arab world.
Abrahmics fighting each other with same tools will result in the same scenario. Iron against Iron. Nothing peculiar.

2) You are also assuming that Hinduism was able to "resist" conversions by nature of its fluidity. That claim does not entirely withstand scrutiny. The largest conversions in Islamic history, in terms of sheer numbers of people converted, took place in the Indian subcontinent. In particular, the conversion of East Bengal ranks as the single largest conversion in Islamic history. Indeed, the Indian subcontinent today has more Muslims than the whole West Asia (the heart and birthplace of Islam) combined.
Undivided India had 24-25% muslims before Independence. As for the fluidness, I will not repeat my points. For a place that has dozens of sects, hundreds of traditions, thousands of devatas and demigods as as many spiritual gangotris .. it is all entrenched and melted within the people for thousands of years. There isn't a single entity that you can catch and denounce.
If something is dissolved in the air, you can't shoot at it.
The culture itself is ahistoric. It does not even depend on the historicity of various figures. It doesn't matter to a Hindu whether someone like Krishna is said to be a historic figure or a myth. The latter's teachings, mesages of the life story are still as venerated by him.
But leave it, it is something only a Hindu would understand.

2) In general, Islamization proceeds much faster in sparsely-populated regions with small populations (like much of West Asia), than in densely-populated regions with large populations (like the Indian subcontinent). This is simply because it takes less time to reach a "critical mass" of converts in societies with small populations, than in those with large populations.
This is also because a more sophisticated and versatile civilization would ideologically resist the desert religion better, as compared to others in West Asia.

I also find it quite interesting that you mentioned the cliche of Hinduism surviving "after more than a millennia of persecution", even after arguing against the notion that Muslims dominated North India from the 13th-18th centuries (which is just half a millennium).
Was there no persecution then? Isn't persecution itself a tool to extend dominance and improve its effectiveness?
Persecution is the biggest reason for conversions in India. Some did to protect their women from rape, others did to save themselves from huge taxes that infidels had to pay. Some just wanted to live and there was no other way for it. Death or Islam had been a norm followed more or less since Mahmud's times.

But even in that half a millennium, the numbers of Muslim converts were quite large; as mentioned previously, the population of Subcontinental Muslims is larger than most West Asian countries put together. The parts of the Indian subcontinent that really DID witness over one millennium of Islamic rule, such as Sindh, NWFP, and parts of Panjab, are all overwhelmingly Muslim today (90%+).
Sindh was under constant muslim rule since 711 A.D. NWFP and Punjab were under constant muslim rule since Mahmud Ghazni (1008 A.D.).

Regards,
Virendra
 

civfanatic

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: facepalm : No I am not. My point was not about abrahmic religions at all. My point solely was about why at a philosophic/intellectual level, the likes of missionaries couldn't succeed so well against Hinduism.
It had nothing to do with how more organized religions would fare against each other. They would fail or pass for their own reasons.
It is you who is assuming my friend.
Abrahmics fighting each other with same tools will result in the same scenario. Iron against Iron. Nothing peculiar.
I am not talking about Christian missionaries, but Islamization. This is what you said:
this fluid unorganized nature is again the reason that Hinduism survived so well, after more than a millennia of persecution.
Aren't you implying that, if Hinduism was more organized, it wouldn't have survived so well?


Undivided India had 24-25% muslims before Independence. As for the fluidness, I will not repeat my points. For a place that has dozens of sects, hundreds of traditions, thousands of devatas and demigods as as many spiritual gangotris .. it is all entrenched and melted within the people for thousands of years. There isn't a single entity that you can catch and denounce.
If something is dissolved in the air, you can't shoot at it.
The culture itself is ahistoric. It does not even depend on the historicity of various figures. It doesn't matter to a Hindu whether someone like Krishna is said to be a historic figure or a myth. The latter's teachings, mesages of the life story are still as venerated by him.
But leave it, it is something only a Hindu would understand.
Are you denying the fact there are more Muslims in the Indian subcontinent than in the whole of West Asia? Why are there so many Muslims in South Asia, if "Hinduism" did such a good job of resisting conversions with its "fluid nature"?

As far as I can tell, the highly organized Christian societies in Europe did a much better job of resisting conversion and Islamization than "Hinduism". That's why I fail to understand your statement that "this fluid unorganized nature is again the reason that Hinduism survived so well, after more than a millennia of persecution."


This is also because a more sophisticated and versatile civilization would ideologically resist the desert religion better, as compared to others in West Asia.
Are you seriously claiming that the pre-Islamic civilizations in West Asia lacked "sophistication"?

And again, Indian civilization did not "resist the desert religion" better. There are around half a billion Muslims in South Asia today. That is hardly a small number, and hardly indicates a "great resistance".


Was there no persecution then? Isn't persecution itself a tool to extend dominance and improve its effectiveness?

Persecution is the biggest reason for conversions in India. Some did to protect their women from rape, others did to save themselves from huge taxes that infidels had to pay. Some just wanted to live and there was no other way for it. Death or Islam had been a norm followed more or less since Mahmud's times.
Sindh was under constant muslim rule since 711 A.D. NWFP and Punjab were under constant muslim rule since Mahmud Ghazni (1008 A.D.)
I am not sure you understood my point. There was certainly persecution, but not for over a millennium, except in the parts that I mentioned (Sindh, NWFP, and Panjab). Those parts are all 90%+ Muslim today, and no "fluid nature" of Hinduism prevented their Islamization.

Most of India, however, was only under Islamic rule for a few centuries, and far short of a millennium. Most of North India was dominated by Muslims for five centuries at most (13th-18th centuries), as I argued on a previous thread. The Deccan came under effective Islamic rule by the 15th century, and the regions south of the Krishna river were intermittently under Islamic rule, from the 16th-18th centuries. The fact that Islamic rule came so late, and lasted for a relatively short time (compared to West Asia), is another reason why a larger percentage of Indians are not Muslim (though, again, India still has one of the world's largest Muslim populations).

In sum, my argument is that Hinduism's "fluid nature" has little to do with why a larger percentage of the Indian population is not Muslim. Instead, I would say that the three main reasons for this are:
1) The huge population of the Indian subcontinent. There were simply far more people to convert, before reaching an appreciable percentage of Muslims in the overall population.
2) The fact that Islamic rule came to most of India at a relatively late date, and lasted for just a few centuries at most (except Sindh, Panjab, and NWFP, which were all thoroughly Islamized).
3) The indirect nature of the Islamic rulers in India. They were not too concerned with converting the Hindu masses, so long as the masses remained submissive and paid taxes. But even then, they still got the largest number of Muslims in the whole world.

I am fairly certain that, if the whole Indian subcontinent was under Islamic rule for as long as Sindh was (past 1300 years), India would be majority Muslim just like Sindh. I doubt that the "fluid nature" of "Hinduism" would resist Islamization in the rest of the subcontinent, any more than it resisted Islamization in Sindh.
 

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