Asia pivot threatened

Zero_Wing

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@LurkerBaba @Decklander @Singh

Zero drags things off topic, calls for Chinese people to die from earthquakes and epidemics while Chinese women get orally raped, and then says 'get back on topic'. How is this guy still around?
Am still here because you kind is still here and you continue to insult not just the Indians here (this their forum and you can't even respect them and others) and you have the nerve to site my medicines to your kind as form of wrong doing f you sir! If you want me to stop go back to topic and stop insulting us if you people are still too stupid to understand that! You get what you deserve remember that.!
 
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Compersion

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Xi Jinping makes a visit to Russia and Africa. Li Keqiang is coming to India and Pakistan. In Russia big statements were made to project Xi Jinping. The chinese like to put on a road show for their local audience. But the question is why do they need a road show. Are the leaders accepted internally (CPC Politburo Standing Committee). Russia does not trust PRC and has that changed after Xi Jinpings visit. Next India does not trust PRC will that change. The ironic thing is that after Russia and India the PRC leaders visited countries where they have larger influence and to some extent control. The PRC road show is not aimed at United States but its internal politics. The challenges that PRC face is its relationship with Russia and also the rise of India. With Russia they attempted to mend it and with India they will try and subdue and mollify it. India can put on question to PRC when Li Keqiang "do you support India in its candidature to the permanent council. are you against India". PRC will try to focus on the border(s).
 

thirdartillery

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Xi Jinping makes a visit to Russia and Africa. Li Keqiang is coming to India and Pakistan. In Russia big statements were made to project Xi Jinping. The chinese like to put on a road show for their local audience. But the question is why do they need a road show. Are the leaders accepted internally (CPC Politburo Standing Committee). Russia does not trust PRC and has that changed after Xi Jinpings visit. Next India does not trust PRC will that change. The ironic thing is that after Russia and India the PRC leaders visited countries where they have larger influence and to some extent control. The PRC road show is not aimed at United States but its internal politics. The challenges that PRC face is its relationship with Russia and also the rise of India. With Russia they attempted to mend it and with India they will try and subdue and mollify it. India can put on question to PRC when Li Keqiang "do you support India in its candidature to the permanent council. are you against India". PRC will try to focus on the border(s).
China does not put too much strategic importance on India, Indian counts only 3% of Chinese foreign trade, and it does not act as a friendly supporter of raw materials to China as Russia does. India cut its ore export to China last year to harm both's economic interests, thus make it even a lesser concern. The everlasting problem is always the Indians' one sided self importance, it assumes China takes it seriously but in reality, China does not. Indian's dos or donts won't be taken into China's account as far as key foreign policy is concerned. and NO, China will never support India's bit to permanent seat in the UNSC. you can drop this wish now.
 

W.G.Ewald

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China does not put too much strategic importance on India, Indian counts only 3% of Chinese foreign trade, and it does not act as a friendly supporter of raw materials to China as Russia does. India cut its ore export to China last year to harm both's economic interests, thus make it even a lesser concern. The everlasting problem is always the Indians' one sided self importance, it assumes China takes it seriously but in reality, China does not. Indian's dos or donts won't be taken into China's account as far as key foreign policy is concerned. and NO, China will never support India's bit to permanent seat in the UNSC. you can drop this wish now.
I tried to salvage this thread with a recent article on the topic of US pivot to Asia, but it continues to limp lamely along with Indians and Chinese sniping at each other.

Maybe thread should be closed.
 

sorcerer

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America's Pivot to Asia: A Report Card
May 05, 2013
By Trefor MossABOUT THE AUTHOR
America’s Pivot to Asia: A Report Card | The Diplomat



The pivot is a smart policy which is more nuanced than most people realize. But its China blind spot could be its undoing. Mutual understanding seldom comes easily to Sino-U.S. relations. And so General Martin Dempsey, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who was visiting China recently, deserves credit for explaining the United States "pivot" to Asia in terms that his audience, well used to policy slogans, might hope to understand. Dempsey described the American approach to Asia as one of 'three mores' – more interest, more engagement, and more quality assets – to his Chinese interlocutors, who appeared to react with an encouraging equanimity. China still doesn't like the pivot, but it may be starting to understand it – and even learn to live with it.

Just days earlier, one of those quality assets – the first-in-class littoral combat ship (LCS) USS Freedom – had arrived in Singapore. With the number of U.S. Marines deployed to Northern Australia still only nominal, Freedom's arrival — despite recent problems — was arguably the most important military milestone in the pivot so far.

Yet the Obama administration's strategic shift to Asia has, contrary to popular perceptions, never been a primarily military undertaking. To be sure, it has a military dimension, but if anything it is subordinate to the increased political and economic engagement that the White House envisages. So, 18 months into its rebalancing act, how is the U.S. faring?


Primary Objectives
The pivot is not well understood, not least in Asia itself. China suspects that the only real purpose of the pivot is its own containment, though Washington denies this. In Southeast Asia, some countries think a greater U.S. commitment will boost stability; others see it as a risk to stability.

The U.S. itself has contributed to the confusion by repeatedly reframing the strategy, which was originally a "pivot" and then evolved into a "rebalancing", a "shift", and now also a "Pacific Dream."
It has also failed to counter media portrayals of the pivot as an essentially military endeavour, partly because the pivot's military plank is the only one that has included well-articulated goals.

So what are the pivot's main goals? In March, National Security Advisor Tom Donilon restated in detail what America is trying to achieve in Asia. The U.S. government desires a "stable security environment and a regional order rooted in economic openness, peaceful resolution of disputes, and respect for universal rights and freedoms",:rofl: Donilon said, and it is seeking to achieve that end through action in five specific areas:

- Strengthening alliances

- Deepening partnerships with emerging powers.

- Building a stable, productive and constructive relationship with China.

- Empowering regional institutions.

- Helping to build a regional economic architecture.


The same objectives were discussed at the end of April by Joseph Yun, Acting Assistant Secretary, Bureau of East Asian and Pacific Affairs, in testimony to a Senate committee which mainly covered the security dimension of the rebalancing policy. The U.S. "commitment to the Asia-Pacific region is [being] demonstrated in a number of ways," Yun said, including "intensive engagement at every level." But how much progress is the U.S. making in those five principal areas which Donilon identified?


1. Strengthening Alliances

Donilon specifically mentioned five countries – Japan, South Korea, Australia, the Philippines and Thailand – in his list of U.S. allies. This is the area in which the least work needed to be done, with the U.S.'s main Asia-Pacific alliances already in fairly good shape. "These alliances are all based on existing treaties," observes Tim Huxley, executive director of the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) Asia. "So it's more about tone than [changing] the actual structure of the alliance."

The rise of China has made these allies – with the exception of Thailand, whose stance is more ambiguous – instinctively seek greater shelter beneath the U.S. security umbrella. Hence the marked increase in defence co-operation with Australia and the Philippines especially. The pivot has relatively little relevance for South Korea, since its co-operation with the U.S. is in any case guaranteed by the extreme security threat posed by the North.

The Japan relationship has been strengthened the most. Not that it had become weak: Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe may be trying to portray himself as the saviour of the U.S.-Japan relationship, but with the exception of Yukio Hatoyama's brief and shaky permiership relations have been steady. Nonetheless, April saw progress in two important areas: a new Consolidation Plan for U.S. forces in Okinawa; and Japan's entry into Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) negotiations. There has also been the decision to deploy an early-warning X-band radar to Japan to boost its missile defence system; Tokyo's procurement of the F-35, and continuing expressions of confidence in the aircraft; and resolution of the controversial MV-22 Osprey issue. Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also voiced opposition to any action that would undermine Japan's administrative control of the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, much to China's annoyance. U.S. Secertary of Defense Chuck Hagel recently made a similiar statement.:panda::shoot:

The U.S. has been criticised – not least by Beijing – for giving its partners the false expectation that it might back them in their territorial disputes with China. "This signal by the U.S. [of its desire to strengthen alliances] may embolden some U.S. allies such as Japan and the Philippines to pursue more hard-line positions for their territorial disputes with China," argues Zhang Baohui, an associate professor at Lingnan University. "They may think that the U.S. will lend them unconditional support. This perception may lead to unintended consequences."

But Scott Harold, a political scientist at the RAND Corporation, says "there is no evidence of any boldness on the part of Japan or the Philippines being based on the misperception of the U.S. backing them in any circumstances." Manila has decided to challenge China, but it is doing so peacefully, nor rashly, at an UNCLOS tribunal. And while Abe and his government have made some regrettably hawkish moves in recent days, there are no grounds for attributing them to U.S. policy.

Policy Area Progress Rating: 8/10

2. Deepening Partnerships With Emerging powers

The U.S. has done important work reaching out to Burma and Vietnam, but in the Asia-Pacific "emerging powers" primarily means India and Indonesia.

Both countries are traditionally non-aligned, and were never about to rush into the American embrace. "The starting point for most Asian countries, including India and Indonesia, is that they would prefer to be without security partners," observes Huxley.

Yet progress is being made with both countries. With India, talks continue on moving forward with the breakthrough civil nuclear deal of 2005; last year former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta promised Indiaaccess to the best American weapon systems, with New Delhi having already procured $8 billion worth of U.S. equipment; and deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter is heading up a new India defense trade initiative. As for Indonesia, President Obama's November 2010 speech in Jakarta set the tone for improved relations as embodied in the new US-Indonesia Comprehensive Partnership. Indonesia is generallysupportive of the U.S. pivot, insofar as it helps maintain the regional balance.

Yet India not Indonesia still incline towards strategic aloofness when it comes to U.S. co-operation. They are partners, but definitely not allies. Washington has half-convinced them, but some smart diplomacy will be needed to make further gains. "The danger for the U.S. is in trying too hard," suggests Huxley, who suspects that excessive attention could have an adverse effect on instinctively non-aligned countries.

Policy Area Progress Rating: 6/10


3. Building a Stable and Constructive Relationship With China

This is the square peg that won't quite fit into round holes of Washington's Asia policy: the Obama administration wants the pivot to encompass better relations with China, and yet the pivot is the one policy that annoys China more than any other. In its newly released Defence White Paper, Beijing again criticised the U.S. rebalancing, which it said was making the situation in the region "tenser."

Nonetheless, China has now had time to evaluate the U.S. policy, and to see that its military elements are not all that far-reaching. RAND's Harold reckons that China is gradually coming to accept that the pivot is not all about containing China's rise. "Yes, the U.S. trying to shape the environment, but that's not containment," he says. "Having policies that are different from China's is not containment." The U.S. has generally avoided angering China by intervening in its territorial disputes, and high-level visits like that of General Dempsey and John Kerry will increase trust. Inviting China to the RIMPAC exercises in 2014, as well an Australian push for trilateral exercises involving China and the U.S., will also be beneficial.

Points of friction will inevitably remain, such as cyber issues and currency values. But the elephant in the pivot-room is that China and the U.S. are still competitors in too many areas. The American vision of an Asia-Pacific is one that China simply does not share. China is not interested in championing the region's democratic institutions, for example. It feels excluded from U.S. programs, and instinctively leans towards competing with U.S.-led initiatives rather than joining them. "My impression is that PACOM in particular is making a great effort to develop cordial relations with the PLA," argues Huxley, "but then it comes back again to that one contradiction: PACOM's force structure is being enhanced, U.S. forces are rebalancing in the Asia-Pacific – and the question has to be balancing against what?"

So while the U.S. can certainly forge a better working relationship with China, the very nature of the pivot may preclude the constructive relationship which Washington seeks.

Policy Area Progress Rating: 5/10


4. Empowering Regional Institutions

The Obama administration takes the view that strong institutions will underpin the desired stable regional order, and ASEAN and the East Asia Summit (EAS) are the two regional bodies that it is investing in.

In this area, the U.S. has done most things right. It has sent an ambassador to ASEAN, and has promised high-level representation at regional summits, not least regular presidential attendance of the EAS. "It's empowerment through showing up," says Harold. Huxley adds that perceptions of U.S. neglect of Asian institutions pre-Obama have been overstated: the Secretary of Defense has attended the Shangri-La Dialogue every year since 2003, and support for ASEAN and the EAS has been long-standing.

China has also paid close attention to these regional bodies, but its divide-and-rule tactics have created conflict within ASEAN, not empowered it. This casts U.S. participation is a favourable light. But at the same time, America's ability to empower the Asia-Pacific weak institutional structure will always be very limited. "It's widely recognized that ASEAN is going to succeed or fail as a result of its own efforts," suggests Huxley. "There's little that outsiders can do, except to take it seriously."

Policy Area Progress Rating: 9/10

5. Building Regional Economic Architecture

U.S. investment in Asia has already been on the increase, according to Joseph Yun's testimony, growing from $22.5bn in 2009 to $41.4bn in 2011. Now, the U.S. is betting heavily on the TPP – which does not involve China – to supercharge its regional economic presence.


Japan's recent decision to negotiate entry into the TPP could be the making of the project. Yet the TPP exposes another serious pivot contradiction, namely that it runs counter to Donilon's #3 objective: improving relations with China. "The TPP is seen by China and as anti-China initiative," says Huxley. There certainly seems little prospect of China joining, even though other countries which have signed up – notably Vietnam – have the kind of illiberal economies which, like China's, might be thought to preclude TPP membership.

The problem for the U.S. is that, even with Japan's participation, China already heavily dominates Asia-Pacific trade. "The net economic effect of the TPP is negligible," argues Zhang. "The pivot has achieved very little in reality – it is losing momentum "¦ [and] a key reason is that every one [of the relevant Asian countries] has China as its largest trading partner." The TPP will survive, Zhang expects, but "alternatives such as the RCEP [Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, which the U.S. is not currently party to] will offer incentives for other countries, as China will be included."

However, Harold is more upbeat about the TPP. "The big benefit of the TPP is that it is essentially a U.S.-Japan free trade agreement," he says. The RCEP will co-exist alongside the TPP, he predicts, but "[the proposed] China-Japan-Korea FTA is the real rival to the TPP," since this would create a China-centric economic bloc that excludes the U.S. while embracing two of its key partners in the region.

Japanese support for the TPP has breathed new life into the U.S.'s economic pivot. But Washington still needs to attract new TPP partners in an environment containing some tempting China-sponsored alternatives. Indonesia, for example, is one potentially key partner that appears to view membership of the TPP and the RCEP as an either/or. In the end, whatever the TPP's virtues, it is hard to escape the conclusion that any economic engagement that skirts around the region's – and soon the world's – main economic power is somehow missing the point.

Policy Area Progress Rating: 6/10

Overall Score: 34/50. The pivot is a smart policy which is more nuanced than most people realize, and the U.S. government is achieving some of its key objectives. But its China blind spot could be its undoing.

Posted by Strategic Studies at 08:45
Indian Strategic Studies: America’s Pivot to Asia: A Report Card
 

huaxia rox

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The point is this chinese are afraid that America got its eyes on the Pacific again with that note they can't go around with impunity anymore that's why they go out of their way to bad mouth all involve but it was their fault in the first place
the point is what can keep worring prc a bit in the coming few years is still the us only.

Mod: OT part has been pruned. Do not make this thread a China-Philippines boxing ring. It is about Asia pivot of US and the threats to it.
 

Zero_Wing

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the point is what can keep worring prc a bit in the coming few years is still the us only.

Mod: OT part has been pruned. Do not make this thread a China-Philippines boxing ring. It is about Asia pivot of US and the threats to it.
What? whatever dude typical chekwa illogical rants cry me a river
 

Zero_Wing

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Lets see if you can make threats if our new weapons arrived this year your rule over our seas will be over
 

Compersion

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China does not put too much strategic importance on India, Indian counts only 3% of Chinese foreign trade, and it does not act as a friendly supporter of raw materials to China as Russia does. India cut its ore export to China last year to harm both's economic interests, thus make it even a lesser concern. The everlasting problem is always the Indians' one sided self importance, it assumes China takes it seriously but in reality, China does not. Indian's dos or donts won't be taken into China's account as far as key foreign policy is concerned. and NO, China will never support India's bit to permanent seat in the UNSC. you can drop this wish now.
The reason for the post here is China is reacting to Americas influence in Asia and trying to show its international reach through force not diplomacy. The membership of China on the P-5 and representative of Asia and Africa can be questioned. The incursion of the Chinese on the border has more implications on what the Foreign Ministers of the Western Powers (you can name all the countries) think of the maturity of China. Obviously there will be high fives in North Korea and Pakistan with Wang Yi. That is what has hurt the Chinese this time. Responsible countries talk about this stuff. India did the mature thing and did not mention it in Khurshid visit and in a very intelligent approach gave them food for thought. This coupled with the image of the Chinese holding Manmohan Singhs hand for "protection" during the Climate control talks it seems the Chinese are seeing the importance of India. Perhaps that is why the Premier of the PRC is making his first visit to India. They need India in the future. (Perhaps one can also re-word it "need Indias approach"). And this is where the big question needs to be addressed - why does PRC not support India to become a member of the Permanent Council on the United Nations. (In fact the only remaining country in the P-5 to do this). "do you support India in its candidature to the permanent council. are you against India". PRC will try to focus on the border(s).
 

t_co

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Speaking on the topic of Indian accession to the P5, it will never happen so long as China holds a veto. France, Russia, and the UK are also unlikely to support Indian accession, because that would imply Germany would have an even stronger rationale for its own accession, given how its economy is nearly 2x the size of India's and it, unlike Japan, does not have a pacifist constitution barring it from contributing armed force to UN mandates.
 

MAYURA

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Speaking on the topic of Indian accession to the P5, it will never happen so long as China holds a veto. France, Russia, and the UK are also unlikely to support Indian accession, because that would imply Germany would have an even stronger rationale for its own accession, given how its economy is nearly 2x the size of India's and it, unlike Japan, does not have a pacifist constitution barring it from contributing armed force to UN mandates.
The only problem in getting veto is china and to an extent america.

Germany is just like japan a setting sun.

20 years ago, japan 's gdp was twice the chinese which did not make much difference.


France, Russia and britain have pledghed support to us in getting veto ( though in politics, deceit is the norm, they have more sense of honour than the treacherous han chinese who kick the ladder supporting them. )
 

t_co

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The only problem in getting veto is china and to an extent america.

Germany is just like japan a setting sun.

20 years ago, japan 's gdp was twice the chinese which did not make much difference.


France, Russia and britain have pledghed support to us in getting veto ( though in politics, deceit is the norm, they have more sense of honour than the treacherous han chinese who kick the ladder supporting them. )
Reported for racism. 'treacherous han chinese?'
 

MAYURA

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Reported for racism. 'treacherous han chinese?'
It is the reality and I challenge anyone to disprove this.


I can present whole history of treachery from the deceit practised on xiongnus to tobas to xianbei by Ran Min to sending a spy like xuang zang to dealing with jurchen and so on.

In 20th century, the same treachery was practiced by chinese on tibet, and then on USSR which had enabled a beggar country to stand on its own.


the USA assisted chinese immensely in 1971 to 1991 but now the chinese are trying to bully USA.

as i have said that chinese love to kick the ladder which supports them and follow the lenin's dictum


"support any one just as rope supports a hanging man"
 

TrueSpirit

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"friendly supporter of raw materials" : that' s weird:rofl:
China does not put too much strategic importance on India, Indian counts only 3% of Chinese foreign trade, and it does not act as a friendly supporter of raw materials to China as Russia does. India cut its ore export to China last year to harm both's economic interests, thus make it even a lesser concern. The everlasting problem is always the Indians' one sided self importance, it assumes China takes it seriously but in reality, China does not. Indian's dos or donts won't be taken into China's account as far as key foreign policy is concerned. and NO, China will never support India's bit to permanent seat in the UNSC. you can drop this wish now.
 

MAYURA

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The everlasting problem is always the Indians' one sided self importance, it assumes China takes it seriously but in reality, China does not. Indian's dos or donts won't be taken into China's account as far as key foreign policy is concerned. and NO, China will never support India's bit to permanent seat in the UNSC. you can drop this wish now.
If India one day will become strong, then it would not be possible for anyone to ignore indians leave alone chinese which is even behind Russia.


I do know the contempt in which indians are held by chinese but it does not affect us just as it did not affect chinese in early twentieth century.
 

GromHellscream

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The only problem is "ONE DAY INDIA WILL BECOME STRONG".

The negative ideas from Chinese to India is not about your culture, race or even history after India's modern independence.

It's about the ideology combat.

In mainland Chinese eyes, india nowdays is just repeating the history of ROC in early 20th century. And everyone knows what has happened to the ROC China later.
 

t_co

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The only problem is "ONE DAY INDIA WILL BECOME STRONG".

The negative ideas from Chinese to India is not about your culture, race or even history after India's modern independence.

It's about the ideology combat.

In mainland Chinese eyes, india nowdays is just repeating the history of ROC in early 20th century. And everyone knows what has happened to the ROC China later.
Nah, it's not ideological either - it's more geopolitical. India sits astride China's energy supply lines from the Middle East and trade routes to Europe, and it also constantly makes soft power threats towards China's hold over Tibet. If those two issues can be resolved in an amicable fashion, the other ones will also fall by the wayside...
 

Ray

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Reported for racism. 'treacherous han chinese?'
One should not use phrases like 'Treacherous Han Chinese'.

It is not racist though, because it is only a qualification of the class of Chinese, unless of course it is meant to indicate the Hans are the sole class that are treacherous. If so, it is not acceptable.

However, 'treacherous' without justification in detail is also not acceptable.

@Maurya,

Please desist.
 

t_co

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One should not use phrases like 'Treacherous Han Chinese'.

It is not racist though, because it is only a qualification of the class of Chinese, unless of course it is meant to indicate the Hans are the sole class that are treacherous. If so, it is not acceptable.

However, 'treacherous' without justification in detail is also not acceptable.

@Maurya,

Please desist.
Thank you.
 

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