Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[Pratap]

@MadIndian @Virendra

Have you accepted validity of AIT?

 

[Bhadra]

Thanks for post and yes PC Ray wrote a great book with name something like history of Hindu chemistry.

I can take your point about loss in scholarship on chemistry as during tantric age, most of chemists were from Bihar Bengal( Tantric age is just before 1200AD). BTW, is my personal observation correct so far as physical differences between people of West Bengal and Chittagong are concerned? I mean even Das surname people in Kolkata resemble like north Indians, however Bangladeshis are very different( dark and very short).

Ha ha ... Tantric Age ?? What is that, sir ??

 

[Virendra]

@MadIndian @Virendra

Have you accepted validity of AIT?

I have not.

 

[Bhadra]

 

[Pratap]

Ha ha ... Tantric Age ?? What is that, sir ??

The period between Death of Harshavardhana and Islamic invasions as this era was marked by tantrism running high in all three religions viz Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism. Tantric obscene practices really gained ground in this age and is it just coincidence that symbolism to describe tantric mysterious codes was basically pornographic in its content? There is little hardcore porn before this age in India. Buddhism , particularly its eastern branch , was overcome by this and Bengal Bihar played a key role in diffusion of Buddhism into Tibet where the gentle, peaceful and ascetic minded buddhism became a tool to indulge in homosexual orgies( I am not talking about distractions which are normal but institutionalized orgies supported by monks) by buddhist monks.

 

[Pratap]

I have not.

Do you also think that it is a colonial plot to divide Indians and is just a British propaganda?

 

[Bhadra]

 

[Bhadra]

The period between Death of Harshavardhana and Islamic invasions as this era was marked by tantrism running high in all three religions viz Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Well what about Tantra in Vedas? What about tantra in Upanishada? What about Triproupanishad, Tripuratapaini, Bhavanopanishada, Shri sukta, Laxmi tantra etc of Vedic period.

Tantric obscene practices really gained ground in this age and is it just coincidence that symbolism to describe tantric mysterious codes was basically pornographic in its content?

Obscure you say ?

Obscene ?? Pornographic ?

what is obscene or pornographic in Sri Sukta of Rig Veda? Is not that Tantric. I do not know what is your understanding of the Sanskrit word Tantra?

There is little hardcore porn before this age in India. Buddhism , particularly its eastern branch , was overcome by this and Bengal Bihar played a key role in diffusion of Buddhism into Tibet where the gentle, peaceful and ascetic minded buddhism became a tool to indulge in homosexual orgies( I am not talking about distractions which are normal but institutionalized orgies supported by monks) by buddhist monks.

Non sense ! Yoni is symbols of creation from which you have emanated. Yoni is the symbols of that creation with which you perpetuate yourself. Yoni is the symbols where you ultimate decimate your physical existence. The bindu ( the dot) is the source of the universe and the triangle around it is the beginning and end of universe.

What a bizarre view of Tantra.

I recommend Woodroofe to you.

 

[Pratap]

@Bhadra

]Well what about Tantra in Vedas? What about tantra in Upanishada? What about Triproupanishad, Tripuratapaini, Bhavanopanishada, Shri sukta, Laxmi tantra etc of Vedic period.

These are nice rituals with great meaning and symbolism . By tantra, I meant " panchamakara' and no scholar would call Vedic texts as tantric.( proto tantric certainly) . You are playing with semantics as just as lack of term Hindu can not be used to say that no hinduism existed, similarly use of tantra term does not mean that panchamakars existed in Vedic period.

Obscene ?? Pornographic ?

what is obscene or pornographic in Sri Sukta of Rig Veda? Is not that Tantric. I do not know what is your understanding of the Sanskrit word Tantra?

Nothing as I have read Sri Suktam and it shows the greatest and most ornate sanskrit poetry devoted to Lakshmi. I talked about post Harshavardhana age as Tantric but since your ahamkara leads you to think that you can sweep aside any divergent views, be happy.

I do not remember the exact texts but have certainly read about obscene rituals which also expressed themselves in art. Why is that medieval art of temples is so pornographic? The answer is because of tantrism of vampanth( distinct from modern day hindi term for leftists) variety permeated all three religions.

Non sense ! Yoni is symbols of creation from which you have emanated. Yoni is the symbols of that creation with which you perpetuate yourself. Yoni is the symbols where you ultimate decimate your physical existence. The bindu ( the dot) is the source of the universe and the triangle around it is the beginning and end of universe.

I do not regard worship of Kamakhya or shivalinga as obscene .Do not tell me basics about hindu symbolism. I am not talking about yoni or triangle but secret sexual rituals like one performed by Kashmiri philosopherAbhinavgupta or Padmasambhava? Ever heard of him? I am talking about choosing of sisters and mothers as sadhikas accompanying rituals. I am talking about outright porn displayed in scores of temples in medieval era( Jain temple at Ranakpur is full of such amorous figures) where every position that can be thought of has been shown. BTW, you do not seem to have read about red hats and yellow hats in Tibet.

What a bizarre view of Tantra.

I recommend Woodroofe to you

Which different view is not bizarre? John Woodroofe aka Arthur Avalon has been regarded as great scholar of tantrism but even he can not deny proliferation of porn on temple walls and increasing number of tantric texts. Tantrism was nothing but moral bankruptcy of our elites in a land of Jainism, Vaishnavism and Mahayan Buddhism.

 

[Bhadra]

The period between Death of Harshavardhana and Islamic invasions as this era was marked by tantrism running high in all three religions viz Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism. Tantric obscene practices really gained ground in this age and is it just coincidence that symbolism to describe tantric mysterious codes was basically pornographic in its content? There is little hardcore porn before this age in India. Buddhism , particularly its eastern branch , was overcome by this and Bengal Bihar played a key role in diffusion of Buddhism into Tibet where the gentle, peaceful and ascetic minded buddhism became a tool to indulge in homosexual orgies( I am not talking about distractions which are normal but institutionalized orgies supported by monks) by buddhist monks.

 

[Pratap]

Could you please refute my arguments rather than throwing irrelevant lectures? Explain ritual of Abhinavgupta with his " sadhika" and tell me whether you justify it or not. Similarly, do you endorse sculptures like those shown on Ranakpur, Konark and Khajuraho( there are numerous such examples but I named only a few)? Also explain concept of panchamakaras.

 

[Bhadra]

Could you please refute my arguments rather than throwing irrelevant lectures? Explain ritual of Abhinavgupta with his " sadhika" and tell me whether you justify it or not. Similarly, do you endorse sculptures like those shown on Ranakpur, Konark and Khajuraho( there are numerous such examples but I named only a few)? Also explain concept of panchamakaras.

You have not commented on Tripura Tapaini, Tripura Sara Sammuchaya etc ... you have no comments to offer for Laxmi Tantra. Do you have any thing to say about Durga Saptsati of Markandeya Purana....... ??

You not only know anything about Shatkarma and Panchmakars but also you perhaps have at all not seen the Jain temple of Ranakpur and equally beautiful and magnificent temple of Mount Abu which has no obscenity whatsoever but depiction of the ultimate Sri-chakra in three dimensional form devoted and dedicated to Jain Godess Padmawati. You show me a picture of your so called obscenity of the two and I shall rest my arguments.

Actually you are stuck with a wrong person or rather a right person.

Tantra uses symbolism but your concept of Tantra seems to be Osho type orgies which was not there with Tantra. Tantra did use the most powerfull symbol of Maya as a tool of liberation but you quoting unknown source of sex with mother and sister is bizarre at best.

Give an authentic example ??

 

[Pratap]

@Bhadra

You have not commented on Tripura Tapaini, Tripura Sara Sammuchaya etc ... you have no comments to offer for Laxmi Tantra. Do you have any thing to say about Durga Saptsati of Markandeya Purana....... ??

No because I did not claim that these works contain obscene materials. A strawman argument by you at best.

You not only know anything about Shatkarma and Panchmakars but also you perhaps have at all not seen the Jain temple of Ranakpur and equally beautiful and magnificent temple of Mount Abu which has no obscenity whatsoever but depiction of the ultimate Sri-chakra in three dimensional form devoted and dedicated to Jain Godess Padmawati. You show me a picture of your so called obscenity of the two and I shall rest my arguments.

Can not insert images because of this site having some problem. I have not personally seen Ranakpur Jain temple but have read that there are two small temples dedicated to Neminath and Parshvanath besides the main temple. These two temples contained " Kamasakt Murtiyan" and Gopinath Sharma, a great historian of Rajasthan called them obscene. Anyway, you are just escaping my questions on Konark, Khajuraho and numerous such temples which contain pornography.

Actually you are stuck with a wrong person or rather a right person.

OK

Tantra uses symbolism but your concept of Tantra seems to be Osho type orgies which was not there with Tantra. Tantra did use the most powerfull symbol of Maya as a tool of liberation but you quoting unknown source of sex with mother and sister is bizarre at best.

You are making things as I did not talk about mother or sister and incest. I said that there are works which do call them worthy of being sadhikas. John Woodrofe opined that it was symbolism but I am within my rights to call any symbolism which talks about sister being sadhika as bad. I know that incest was not there even in morally bankrupt tantric sects. Do not be sad as my sources will be ready soon.

Here is a mild tantric line

kAmesha-j~nAta-saubhAgya-mArdavoru-dvayAnvitA


kAmeshvara-prema-ratna-maNi-pratipaNa-stanI


Translate them

Read Siddhayogeshwari mata and you will get clear account of sexual ritual in it.

 

[Pratap]

Double post deleted.

 

[Virendra]

Do you also think that it is a colonial plot to divide Indians and is just a British propaganda?

Not sure how much the intent was to divide Indians. But to own the Sanskrit, the Vedas and everything that sprang out of it; it is important to own the very people associated with it - Arya.
It is not a British propaganda anymore. It is a theory that runs the career of many academic desks and politicians across various countries.

 

[Pratap]

@Virendra First Namaste bhaiyya.

]Not sure how much the intent was to divide Indians. But to own the Sanskrit, the Vedas and everything that sprang out of it; it is important to own the very people associated with it - Arya.

It is true that some colonial British historians did feel some degree of kinship with Indians of yore based on this shared Indo European Religion and common arya origin, but you are massively wrong if you believe that majority of historians( then as well as now) were owning Sanskrit or Vedas. These were full of abrahmic contempt for pagan religions and if you read their works, you would find them calling Vedic people as savages. So they were owning savages?

As for owning sanskrit is concerned, this is self goal done by people( I am afraid you are one of them) who have zero and notoriously inverted understanding of ethnicity and languages. Believe me no western author has galls to say that Sanskrit is " white heritage" or something like that. From remotest antiquity when Iranians were not there in Iran and Chinese were yet not Chinese, the sanskrit is fully Indian. The theory is that old Indo Aryan which came with aryas gave birth to sanskrit in India not that it was brought. Even if it was brought, Sanskrit still remains Indian. Do you think Italian, German, Greek and Persian belong to Russia? Origins and that too ultimate in bronze age is not that important but hindu nationalists have burned their boat completely.

It is not a British propaganda anymore. It is a theory that runs the career of many academic desks and politicians across various countries.[

Was never a british propaganda and it does not run career of politicians. Why Iranians, British and German professors are happy with a Russian homeland of their languages( proto forms)? The problem with deniers of AIT is that they see white race as some monolith and so when the homeland is situated in Pontic steppes, they start seeing white conspiracy without taking into account that there are much enmities within white race. Why would Germans love to know that their white ancestors were invaded and lost their langauges by invaders from Russia? Just to keep dark skinned Indians feel inferior? What a conspiracy theory.

 

[Mad Indian]

@Pratap

AIT has been debunked by various genetic studies beyond doubt. Its wrong about everything from direction to time line. It only exists in the wet dreams of certain people wth wet dreams of connection to "superior european descendants" and anti nationalists

However if you want to assume theory and "then" try to prove it with half truths and half facts, then you can continue it yourself.


Btw your genetic "proof/links" are all right in that there is genetic similiarity between ANI and european. The only problem is, the direction of movement if from here to there and not the other way round as indicated in the genetic studies link I gave.


However, if you still want to debate with half facts, you can do it with yourself

 

[Mad Indian]

@Virendra First Namaste bhaiyya.



It is true that some colonial British historians did feel some degree of kinship with Indians of yore based on this shared Indo European Religion and common arya origin, but you are massively wrong if you believe that majority of historians( then as well as now) were owning Sanskrit or Vedas. These were full of abrahmic contempt for pagan religions and if you read their works, you would find them calling Vedic people as savages. So they were owning savages?

As for owning sanskrit is concerned, this is self goal done by people( I am afraid you are one of them) who have zero and notoriously inverted understanding of ethnicity and languages. Believe me no western author has galls to say that Sanskrit is " white heritage" or something like that. From remotest antiquity when Iranians were not there in Iran and Chinese were yet not Chinese, the sanskrit is fully Indian. The theory is that old Indo Aryan which came with aryas gave birth to sanskrit in India not that it was brought. Even if it was brought, Sanskrit still remains Indian. Do you think Italian, German, Greek and Persian belong to Russia? Origins and that too ultimate in bronze age is not that important but hindu nationalists have burned their boat completely.




Was never a british propaganda and it does not run career of politicians. Why Iranians, British and German professors are happy with a Russian homeland of their languages( proto forms)? The problem with deniers of AIT is that they see white race as some monolith and so when the homeland is situated in Pontic steppes, they start seeing white conspiracy without taking into account that there are much enmities within white race. Why would Germans love to know that their white ancestors were invaded and lost their langauges by invaders from Russia? Just to keep dark skinned Indians feel inferior? What a conspiracy theory.

Dude seriously go through the entire thread and "then" ask these questions. All your questions have been already answered and we are tired.

We are not replying to post out of lack of arguments but rather due to lack of interst in this stupid theory

 

[Virendra]

@Virendra First Namaste bhaiyya.
It is true that some colonial British historians did feel some degree of kinship with Indians of yore based on this shared Indo European Religion and common arya origin, but you are massively wrong if you believe that majority of historians( then as well as now) were owning Sanskrit or Vedas.

That is not what they "were" doing initially. But gradually and moreso lately, that is what they "are" trying to do.

These were full of abrahmic contempt for pagan religions and if you read their works, you would find them calling Vedic people as savages. So they were owning savages?

Yes they were owning the savages as one of their old branches, which they then had a duty to rule and civilize. That is how they tried to justify colonial occupation.

As for owning sanskrit is concerned, this is self goal done by people( I am afraid you are one of them) who have zero and notoriously inverted understanding of ethnicity and languages. Believe me no western author has galls to say that Sanskrit is " white heritage" or something like that.

Not white heritage but a European/Western one. If you can't find yourself in a family photo, you say that you're the grandpa of one of the oldies in that photo.

From remotest antiquity when Iranians were not there in Iran and Chinese were yet not Chinese, the sanskrit is fully Indian.

This battle isn't just about Sanskrit anymore. I'm sure you've heard of the so called PIE. They're not saying "We created Sanskrit" but that "We created the ancestor of Sanskrit at our own lebensraum. What you created is only a by-product or one of the children. So we're still your Grandpa".
That is what I mean by the efforts of owning Sanskrit.

Was never a british propaganda and it does not run career of politicians.

Sure does for the likes of KarunaNidhi and Witzel. The latter now distances himself from AIT though. Has been trying to push the new baby - AMT instead.

Why Iranians, British and German professors are happy with a Russian homeland of their languages( proto forms)?

Should ask them.

The problem with deniers of AIT is that they see white race as some monolith and so when the homeland is situated in Pontic steppes, they start seeing white conspiracy without taking into account that there are much enmities within white race. Why would Germans love to know that their white ancestors were invaded and lost their langauges by invaders from Russia? Just to keep dark skinned Indians feel inferior? What a conspiracy theory.

I've never talked of races in AIT debates. It is meaningless and irrelevant.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra



These are nice rituals with great meaning and symbolism . By tantra, I meant " panchamakara' and no scholar would call Vedic texts as tantric.

panchmakar is of very late origin and associated with Koulik and Vam school where Mans , matsya, madira. maithuna etc are nothing but yogic rituals of higher order. For example Maithuna is nothing but firstly the two brathing nadies getting together and Kundalinin (Shakti) meeting the shiva. Now which sadhana schools do not have those practices.

secret sexual rituals like one performed by Kashmiri philosopherAbhinavgupta or Padmasambhava? Ever heard of him?

Abhinava Gupta was the most profound Shiva / Tantric sholar who expounded in grater deatails the tanets of Trik school of Shaivism and wrote many profound treaties of Trika school philosophy as as Spand Karika etc. I have not heard of his specific theory proprogating sex only tantra . Since he was a accomplished koulic, he could have . But a reference is needed.

I am talking about outright porn displayed in scores of temples in medieval era( Jain temple at Ranakpur is full of such amorous figures) where every position that can be thought of has been shown. BTW, you do not seem to have read about red hats and yellow hats in Tibet.

I assure you that there is no pornography at Ranakpur or Mount Abu jain temples. The schools of Vajrayan do propagate sex as a natural act and why should not they.

Tantrism was nothing but moral bankruptcy of our elites in a land of Jainism, Vaishnavism and Mahayan Buddhism.

Tall statement and claims ... johney's head in air..

If tantrism is closely associated with anything that is Shaivism and Shakt margas of upasana. We shall leave it that lest the thread become sexual ....