Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[p2prada]

All above you have mentioned are too futuristic too reply. There is progress in metal technology in last 20 years but not so much that we can expect plastics or water to become armour in next 20-30 years. Those TV channels show more than what we shall see.

I am an engineer. Also, the last I watched TV was 4 years ago. Only news channels for me.

USA is sitting on Japan. So heavy aircrafts is not a problem for Japan, if they required

The American transports will not be transporting Japanese aircraft. They have few planes for their requirements anyway. This was one of the reasons for FCS cancellation. Too few transports.

You are mentioning Mrkava in South Lebanon but had forgot to mention the T72BMs in Chechnya. The burning dead bodies of Russian tank crews in Grozny were really horrific. Is not it?

You are comparing an ex-Soviet State to rag tag militants in Lebanon. The Chechens had everything, they had artillery, anti aircraft weapons and tank killers. The enemy the Russians fought in both Georgia and Checnya were well equipped countries as compared to Lebanon or Afghanistan. You could say the difference is as much as the Kashmiri militants to the Naxals. The Russians had a rather tough environment to fight in. Their tank formations had to face enemy tanks in Georgia as well as war in a completely urban setting. They had RPGs and anti tank rounds coming in from the left, right and from atop buildings. It was a proper war and not some massacre like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Modern infantry Anti-Tank weapons - The Chechnya Experience

Sixty-two tanks were destroyed in the first month's fighting in Chechnya. Over 98% (apparently 61 tanks) were knocked out by rounds which impacted in areas not protected by reactive armor. The Russians employed the T-72 and T-80 tank in Chechnya. They were both invulnerable to frontal shots, since the front is heavily armored and covered with reactive armor. Kill shots were made at those points where there is no reactive armor--the sides and rear and, on top shots, on the drivers hatch and the rear of the turret and rear deck. Early in the conflict, most Russian tanks went into combat without their reactive armor. They were particularly vulnerable to damaging or lethal frontal hits without it.

Normally five or six hunter-killer teams simultaneously attack a single armored vehicle.

Initial Russian vehicle losses were due to a combination of inappropriate tactics, underestimation of the opposing force, and a lack of combat readiness. The Russians moved into Grozny without encircling it and sealing it off from reinforcements. They planned to take the city from the march without dismounting. Due to shortages in personnel, the Russian columns consisted of composite units and most personnel carriers traveled with few or no dismounts. These initial columns were decimated.
As the Russians regrouped, they brought in more infantry and began a systematic advance through the city, house by house and block by block. Russian armored vehicle losses dropped off with their change in tactics.

The situation in Checnya was nowhere compared to Iraq because the Chechens were ex-Soviet Army veterans. Blame it on the state of their economy for severe losses. But the enemy wasn't weak either. It was very well organized and the conditions were brutal for tank formations in the cities. The Chechens though vastly outnumbered were actually better organized which resulted in massive losses. Bring the Abrams in this situation and it wouldn't be any different. No tankie in the world will say his western doctrine tank can fight off a top or rear attack ATGM or RPG.

Believe me those countries are really smarter than us. Donot undrestimate USA/Japan or even Russia/China by saying that they are copying our model. USA is far ahead in technology. We see tommorrow, USA sees the day after tommorrow.

Aho! Everybody copies somebody. If that wasn't the case then only one country would have had tanks or guns or aircraft. The rest would have made something else.

Do you think only the accelaration is the key for a tank? Then why not a a 2500HP engine?

How about a 10000HP engine? The Al Khalid which is lighter than T-90 is upgraded with a 1200HP engine and will get another upgrade of 1500HP in the near future. Let's have a Billion HP on the FMBT.

Acceleration is a key parameter, as important as tank armour.

We are going to keep Su-30 atlest for another 25 years, may be more. How it becomes past? Last we heard India is buying additional 40 Su-30 with capability to carry Brahmos. F-22 and PAKFA is due to stealth and interal weapon bay or may be better radar. R u saying that F-22 and PAKFA are lighter or smaller than F-15 or Su -30. Also we cannot compare aircraft with tank.

We are going to keep T-90 until 2040. It will complement the FMBT. The same way the MKI will complement the FGFA. When it comes to aircraft, it has little to do with how you compare weights like you do with tanks. On tanks weight means better protection while heavier aircraft would mean better capability. But there is no doubt the T-90 and MKI will both be equipment of the past once FMBT and FGFA are out. The same as the F-15 is to the F-22.

Armour may become superior but at the same time anti-tank weapons also becomes superior. So the equation between armour vs penetration doesnot change much.

No. Currently Ammo is superior to armour in certain aspects. This is due to design limitations on heavy tanks like M1, Challenger, Leo or Arjun. The T-90 also faces similar problems, but the new Burlak turret is supposed to reduce some of that limitation by adding heavy ERA on top as well. The armour on top of the tank is the weakest. This is the weakest link for all 70s era tanks like M1, Leo, Arjun etc. That's why a single 5 ton drone like Reaper with 14 Hellfire ATGMs can take out 14 tanks in a single sortie. 14 tanks gone, killed by a single guy sitting behind a joystick 1000 miles away. This is modern warfare.

General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are 57 built. This means 798 tanks can be targeted from the air in the first 24 hours of war commencement. It does not matter which tank of today's generation is present. The minute an Abrams, Leo, Arjun or T-90 is targeted it is toast.

Do you think a 45 ton tank running at 40 KM in a battle field area of 50 SQ KM becomes stealther than 58 ton tank. If you consider it nacked eye visual then it may be but not for a drone. If you want to make tank stealth, then you can also shall have the technology to make them unmanned like Reaper. Till tank are manned, forget about stealth.

No. The weight is for a different purpose. If you want a tank to be hidden from a Reaper, then you have something called stealth. Stealth isn't defined by weight, but by the materials used along with body shaping and regualting electronic and heat emissions. The American 40 ton tank was supposed to be one of those first LO tanks. At the same time the Abrams is the worst tank when it comes to heat emissions.

Visual camoflauge is also being worked on by labs in Britain.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ould-be-on-battlefield-within-five-years.html

Up until recently such concepts were thought to be the stuff of science fiction but scientists at the defence company BAE Systems now believe battlefield "invisibility" will soon become science fact.

If they can do it in 5, we can try the same in 10.

Unmanned tanks are out of the question as of today. The collateral damage will be too high. Technology has not progressed to the point where computers can think for us in such a high risk environment. Unmanned aircraft is a different matter as the sophistication required is actually less than what it is for a tank. In the end who the heck will pay for unmanned tanks? Automation is a different aspect altogether.

We shall have enough capability for CAS in tank battle. LCH can provide good amount of support for the tanks. GW1 is the best example. The 41 ton T72 could not last infront of Cubras and Apaches. So weight doesnot matter

We have helicopters so weight does not matter? One more of those "quote of the day" remarks. How is any of that related to weight of a tank?

CAS isn't guaranteed. A T-72, T-90, Arjun or even Abrams stands no chance against a Cobra or Apache.

On FMBT we are running the cart before the bull. An engineer cannot design somthing untill he knows the specification. Let the army first decide what they want- laser gun etc.

Sure. But it is going to come nonetheless. The FMBT was recently revealed. It is obvious the Army will take a year or 2 before they decide the GSQR.

We donot have Arjun because certain sections of the defence establishment doesnot want DRDO product as they are not going to provide $ as commission.But it is changing. Ultimately we will have Arjuns or whatever but own product as the MBT. After all the media exposer to the corruption in defence deals, in future people will find it difficult to take bribe without notice

Typical Indian. If he did not buy what you want him to buy, he was not payed for it. The Generals are your pride and joy. They are doing a service to the nation. They are there to win wars, not sit and satisfy your big fat ego or even DRDOs.

The Arjun will never see an offensive doctrine which makes the induction a waste of the Army's time, except for satisfying industrial and scientific sectors.

Do you know, when a country got an export order of $1billion, how many people get emploment. If we produce 100% of our defence hardware, we may give employment to 5,00,000 people directly. Indirectly it may be two million. Two million employees means - food for eight million people having 4 members in each familiy. So why we want to secrifice all the employemet opportunities by importing weapons, if we are poor. If DRDO equipmnts are substandarad then what about Pritivi and Agani. Why army accepeted those misilies knowing that those are substand and will not fly during war time and explode the warhead at the time of launch? Beacuse those weapons cannot be imported hence no chance of commission. Before leveling substandard, pls look on the standard of the imported weapons we operate - monkey model of T72 and T90

Do you know what will happen if the enemy attacks and takes over your country? You obviously weren't there when the British ruled, so it is obvious you talk out of the place where the sun don't shine. If we produce 100% of our defence hardware today, then China will take Arunachal Pradesh, the Pakistanis will take Kashmir, the North East will form a separate country and there would be complete anarchy in the rest of the country. The 9% growth will become -9% growth. The monkey model of the T-72 and T-90 is what the Army prefers over the Arjun, so let them have it. They are the reason why you are not making shoes for the Chinese for a dollar a day.

Most of our imported products are made in India or being made in India. Unless you think Nasik is in Nepal and Avadi is in Sri Lanka, both the MKI as well as T-90 are made here. So, plenty of jobs available for all.

You don't have anything of substance to add to the discussion. So, expect this my last post for you.

 

[Storm shadow]

Any tank is vulnerable to top attack,Arjun is no different.That's why DRDO chief told that they will fit heavy NERA bricks on the turret roof.The turret roof will be attacked only with HEAT warheads and not ke rounds for the forseeble future,so NERA is much more effective there as heavy NERA tiles are virtually imune to HEAT warheads.This way Arjun mk2 will become 99% resistant to ATGMs.
Besides,an armor that can defeat Konkurs and Kornet atgm is brilliant for sure.That's why israelies were so impressed by the Arjun's armor,especially the heavy honey comb NERA bricks.
By the way,I don't like the carousel autoloader atall.It has the same rate of fire like a human loader but also stores the ammo right into the crew compartment.

 

[san]

I am an engineer. Also, the last I watched TV was 4 years ago. Only news channels for me.



The American transports will not be transporting Japanese aircraft. They have few planes for their requirements anyway. This was one of the reasons for FCS cancellation. Too few transports.



You are comparing an ex-Soviet State to rag tag militants in Lebanon. The Chechens had everything, they had artillery, anti aircraft weapons and tank killers. The enemy the Russians fought in both Georgia and Checnya were well equipped countries as compared to Lebanon or Afghanistan. You could say the difference is as much as the Kashmiri militants to the Naxals. The Russians had a rather tough environment to fight in. Their tank formations had to face enemy tanks in Georgia as well as war in a completely urban setting. They had RPGs and anti tank rounds coming in from the left, right and from atop buildings. It was a proper war and not some massacre like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Modern infantry Anti-Tank weapons - The Chechnya Experience


The situation in Checnya was nowhere compared to Iraq because the Chechens were ex-Soviet Army veterans. Blame it on the state of their economy for severe losses. But the enemy wasn't weak either. It was very well organized and the conditions were brutal for tank formations in the cities. The Chechens though vastly outnumbered were actually better organized which resulted in massive losses. Bring the Abrams in this situation and it wouldn't be any different. No tankie in the world will say his western doctrine tank can fight off a top or rear attack ATGM or RPG.



Aho! Everybody copies somebody. If that wasn't the case then only one country would have had tanks or guns or aircraft. The rest would have made something else.



How about a 10000HP engine? The Al Khalid which is lighter than T-90 is upgraded with a 1200HP engine and will get another upgrade of 1500HP in the near future. Let's have a Billion HP on the FMBT.

Acceleration is a key parameter, as important as tank armour.



We are going to keep T-90 until 2040. It will complement the FMBT. The same way the MKI will complement the FGFA. When it comes to aircraft, it has little to do with how you compare weights like you do with tanks. On tanks weight means better protection while heavier aircraft would mean better capability. But there is no doubt the T-90 and MKI will both be equipment of the past once FMBT and FGFA are out. The same as the F-15 is to the F-22.



No. Currently Ammo is superior to armour in certain aspects. This is due to design limitations on heavy tanks like M1, Challenger, Leo or Arjun. The T-90 also faces similar problems, but the new Burlak turret is supposed to reduce some of that limitation by adding heavy ERA on top as well. The armour on top of the tank is the weakest. This is the weakest link for all 70s era tanks like M1, Leo, Arjun etc. That's why a single 5 ton drone like Reaper with 14 Hellfire ATGMs can take out 14 tanks in a single sortie. 14 tanks gone, killed by a single guy sitting behind a joystick 1000 miles away. This is modern warfare.

General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are 57 built. This means 798 tanks can be targeted from the air in the first 24 hours of war commencement. It does not matter which tank of today's generation is present. The minute an Abrams, Leo, Arjun or T-90 is targeted it is toast.



No. The weight is for a different purpose. If you want a tank to be hidden from a Reaper, then you have something called stealth. Stealth isn't defined by weight, but by the materials used along with body shaping and regualting electronic and heat emissions. The American 40 ton tank was supposed to be one of those first LO tanks. At the same time the Abrams is the worst tank when it comes to heat emissions.

Visual camoflauge is also being worked on by labs in Britain.
Invisible tanks could be on battlefield within five years - Telegraph


If they can do it in 5, we can try the same in 10.

Unmanned tanks are out of the question as of today. The collateral damage will be too high. Technology has not progressed to the point where computers can think for us in such a high risk environment. Unmanned aircraft is a different matter as the sophistication required is actually less than what it is for a tank. In the end who the heck will pay for unmanned tanks? Automation is a different aspect altogether.



We have helicopters so weight does not matter? One more of those "quote of the day" remarks. How is any of that related to weight of a tank?

CAS isn't guaranteed. A T-72, T-90, Arjun or even Abrams stands no chance against a Cobra or Apache.



Sure. But it is going to come nonetheless. The FMBT was recently revealed. It is obvious the Army will take a year or 2 before they decide the GSQR.



Typical Indian. If he did not buy what you want him to buy, he was not payed for it. The Generals are your pride and joy. They are doing a service to the nation. They are there to win wars, not sit and satisfy your big fat ego or even DRDOs.

The Arjun will never see an offensive doctrine which makes the induction a waste of the Army's time, except for satisfying industrial and scientific sectors.



Do you know what will happen if the enemy attacks and takes over your country? You obviously weren't there when the British ruled, so it is obvious you talk out of the place where the sun don't shine. If we produce 100% of our defence hardware today, then China will take Arunachal Pradesh, the Pakistanis will take Kashmir, the North East will form a separate country and there would be complete anarchy in the rest of the country. The 9% growth will become -9% growth. The monkey model of the T-72 and T-90 is what the Army prefers over the Arjun, so let them have it. They are the reason why you are not making shoes for the Chinese for a dollar a day.

Most of our imported products are made in India or being made in India. Unless you think Nasik is in Nepal and Avadi is in Sri Lanka, both the MKI as well as T-90 are made here. So, plenty of jobs available for all.

You don't have anything of substance to add to the discussion. So, expect this my last post for you.

You can have plastics and water as armaour but not an unmanned tank. Not to worth replying. Rather than rattling on how T90 is the best tank in this world and copying some link glorifying russian tanks, there hardly anything on the above posts. It looks like talking with a man who wants to keep his eyes close but keep his mouth running. Best of luck

 

[p2prada]

You can have plastics and water as armaour but not an unmanned tank. Not to worth replying. Rather than rattling on how T90 is the best tank in this world and copying some link glorifying russian tanks, there hardly anything on the above posts. It looks like talking with a man who wants to keep his eyes close but keep his mouth running. Best of luck

Typical. Plastics and water armour modules have been developed and there are patents for the ideas already in existence along with concept models. The unmanned tanks you talk about don't even exist beyond fiction papers and novels.

AI is not achievable for a few more decades. Only remote tanks can be built, but nobody will buy it because of the expenses. Man will pilot tanks because AI will not be able to differentiate between a man crawling on the ground with a RPG and a child lying down. AI will kill them both the same way. You need a man to make the call, not a machine. Get that into your head.

All the technology that I have talked about is already in the process of being implemented today. The Californians are already designing bridges with self healing technologies. HAL is trying to implement the self healing polymers on the MKI as well.

The point stands and is proven, you have no substance to add to the discussion. See ya.

 

[p2prada]

Any tank is vulnerable to top attack,Arjun is no different.That's why DRDO chief told that they will fit heavy NERA bricks on the turret roof.The turret roof will be attacked only with HEAT warheads and not ke rounds for the forseeble future,so NERA is much more effective there as heavy NERA tiles are virtually imune to HEAT warheads.This way Arjun mk2 will become 99% resistant to ATGMs.
Besides,an armor that can defeat Konkurs and Kornet atgm is brilliant for sure.That's why israelies were so impressed by the Arjun's armor,especially the heavy honey comb NERA bricks.
By the way,I don't like the carousel autoloader atall.It has the same rate of fire like a human loader but also stores the ammo right into the crew compartment.

ERA on top has been accomplished by the T-types already.

After the First Chechen war, the Russians decided on two important things. One is that the ERA has to be added all over the tank body in an urban environment. The second is to completely cease production of the T-80s with gas turbine engines due to their large heat signatures.

The Americans and British came to a similar conclusion with ERA as well. That's why the Challenger came with ERA equipped in Urban scenarios at Iraq, whereas the Americans implemented the TUSK upgrade for the Abrams.

The current design on the T-90 has an autoloader in the turret, but the rate of fire on autoloaders is superior to manual loaders. By 50% or more. The Americans are planning on upgrading the M1A2 with an auto loader as well due to advantages that the autoloader provides. However there is no doubt that the Russian armour technology is on par with western doctrine tanks. The western analysts themselves say that. It is their ballistics which is an issue because the T-72 autoloaders do not accept longer rods. The T-90S changed that slightly with modern shells and the Burlak with the 2A86 is set to change the entire game for the Russians. HERA, dual autoloader system and a gun the size of the L-55.

As for Arjun, the implementation of the Mk1 trials was very bad by DRDO in 1998. There is place for only one type of tank in the IA. It was either the T-90 or the Arjun. The T-90's selection ended the Arjun's hopes of being the primary tank. Next up is the FMBT which will replace the T-72s and will complement the T-90s.

 

[san]

Typical. Plastics and water armour modules have been developed and there are patents for the ideas already in existence along with concept models. The unmanned tanks you talk about don't even exist beyond fiction papers and novels.

AI is not achievable for a few more decades. Only remote tanks can be built, but nobody will buy it because of the expenses. Man will pilot tanks because AI will not be able to differentiate between a man crawling on the ground with a RPG and a child lying down. AI will kill them both the same way. You need a man to make the call, not a machine. Get that into your head.

All the technology that I have talked about is already in the process of being implemented today. The Californians are already designing bridges with self healing technologies. HAL is trying to implement the self healing polymers on the MKI as well.

The point stands and is proven, you have no substance to add to the discussion. See ya.

What is UAV - Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. Reaper is an UACV. So how it is fiction? Pls goggle it. In youtube there are vedios showing American drones killing women and children that is taken from the camera of the drone. So could not get the point that if a tank if unmanned, it cannot distinguish between a man and child. Unmanned means sombody will drive it remotely. A remote tank is not a fiction or dream. It is there for experiment. I can past links but tooo lazy to do. If pasting some google links make discussion worth then ok will do next time

 

[sayareakd]

guys you will soon TATA nova made laser designator for LAHAT, that means Nishant taking aim and Arjun tank firing it from safe distance 6-8 from non line of sight shooting.

 

[p2prada]

What is UAV - Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. Reaper is an UACV. I think u know what UACV means. So what you are mentioning about fiction? Goggle it. Unmanned means sombody will drive it remotely. If you think that pasting some google links make discussion worth then ok.

They are all remotely controlled by human controllers behind consoles. The last I heard they use a Xbox or PS 3 controller. They are not AI based UCAVs. You can't have that on a tank because nobody will buy it or use it.

DRDO is developing a remote controlled BMP-2 so that it can go into NBC environment to check the atmosphere before sending in troops.

True UCAVs that will think autonomously are at least another 20 years ahead. Nobody has anything remotely close to AI that you are suggesting. Also UCAVs are way way way easier to program than unmanned ground vehicles.

If Unmanned tanks are made they will be even smaller than T-90 because all the space for human occupation is eliminated.

 

[gogbot]

Sure. But it is going to come nonetheless. The FMBT was recently revealed. It is obvious the Army will take a year or 2 before they decide the GSQR.

This is what annoys me the Arjun, FMBT and the armys entier tank procurement streategy.
Arjun was based on army gsqr. But it turns out they dont want that gsqr anymore.
Today they have no have no bloody idea what they even want in their fmbt.

I am worried they will give us another gsqr they will change their minds on 10 years down the line.
Despite trying considerably this service continues struggle the most when working with the defence sector.
2 years for the gsqr and expection of delivery in the early half of the next decade.

That gsqr better be what they actually want from defence sector. At least then the ball is completely in drdo court.
be realistic and consider what u want ahead of time seems to be what every offical is saying. Only impliing tha practice was not followed before in formulating gsqr

 

[p2prada]

This is what annoys me the Arjun, FMBT and the armys entier tank procurement streategy.
Arjun was based on army gsqr. But it turns out they dont want that gsqr anymore.

The Arjun was meant for a threat that did not materialize. Also the very fact that it failed trials is the reason why Army went for T-90. It is not Army's fault, but DRDOs. You remember the discussion we had already. So, why flog a dead horse?

Today they have no have no bloody idea what they even want in their fmbt.

You are being irrational. Just because the GSQR takes a year or two to finalize you are attacking the Army for no fault of theirs.

If you want to buy a car, do you just walk into a random showroom and buy whatever takes your fancy? Never. The Army is the same. They will study for a year or 2 before finalizing the GSQR for FMBT.

I am worried they will give us another gsqr they will change their minds on 10 years down the line.
Despite trying considerably this service continues struggle the most when working with the defence sector.

It is possible. There were fears the F-35A would be cancelled in 2005, the F-22 production has been halted as well. The T-95 GSQR was finalized but the project was cancelled as well. There are hundreds of projects that are cancelled because new threats are born like the Pakistani T-80UD and Al Khalid or when no threat exists like the F-22 or when technology is not feasible for further development like T-95.

Even GSQRs for FB-22 and Black Eagle tank were drawn and cancelled. Even the GSQR for the 40 ton tank meant for the FCS program was drawn and cancelled.

The services struggles most with the PSUs because they are not capable of delivering like they should be. How many times have you kicked out a servant that has not been up to your standards at your own home? So, why should the military be any different?

We all openly curse BSNL for their shoddy customer service as compared to Airtel, why is that? Haven't you given thought on why the Army prefers the Russians or French over DRDO citing similar reasons but is not exposed publicly?

2 years for the gsqr and expection of delivery in the early half of the next decade.

Production model should be ready for induction by 2020 according to GSQR. But I guess delays are taken into consideration when DRDO handles the project.

That gsqr better be what they actually want from defence sector. At least then the ball is completely in drdo court.
be realistic and consider what u want ahead of time seems to be what every offical is saying. Only impliing tha practice was not followed before in formulating gsqr

The ball has always been in DRDO's court. It is not the Army's fault that the Arjun's engine could not perform or the gun always fell short.

It's like blaming yourself instead of your phone company whenever you have trouble with your phone. Look at this rationally and logically. If you take real good care of your Indian company made smartphone and never abused it. But one day it stopped working due to a manufacturing defect. Next day you sue the phone company and the judge says it is not the company's fault but yours because you are not able to accept a phone, albeit low quality, even though it is Indian. Also accusing you of not being a true Indian because you are not supporting indigenous product, but rather threatening to buy a foreign made Samsung or LG. Is that really fair to you in that situation? The Army is the customer and DRDO is the phone company? So, who's fault is it that the Arjun did not deliver?

Ego and Pride are all great but those qualities have never ever won a war in the last 3000 years of human history. The last guy with both these qualities was Hitler.

 

[san]

The Arjun was meant for a threat that did not materialize. Also the very fact that it failed trials is the reason why Army went for T-90. It is not Army's fault, but DRDOs. You remember the discussion we had already. So, why flog a dead horse?

Whatever we say, more Arjuns are comming. No doubt on it and there will be no additional order for T90.

If you want to buy a car, do you just walk into a random showroom and buy whatever takes your fancy? Never. The Army is the same. They will study for a year or 2 before finalizing the GSQR for FMBT.?

The services struggles most with the PSUs because they are not capable of delivering like they should be. How many times have you kicked out a servant that has not been up to your standards at your own home? So, why should the military be any different?

Army is looking artillary for last 20 years. Still not able to buy. It is not DRDO's fault. So it is better to clean own's house before pointing to others

We all openly curse BSNL for their shoddy customer service as compared to Airtel, why is that? Haven't you given thought on why the Army prefers the Russians or French over DRDO citing similar reasons but is not exposed publicly?

Then why Navy is shouting to Russians for all the delays, cost overrun and the worst after service supply.

It is not the Army's fault that the Arjun's engine could not perform or the gun always fell short.

Pls stop above lies. Nobody believe

Ego and Pride are all great but those qualities have never ever won a war in the last 3000 years of human history. The last guy with both these qualities was Hitler.

Pls donot compare induction of Arjun with Hitler. That is too much.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The Rifled gun has superior accuracy. But bring the Arjun against a Challenger and all accuracy claims go to naught. The Arjun can fire briefcase targets from 2Km, but Challenger can fire a backpack size target from 4Kms away. Experience tank crews will do it from 6 Kms away. Even after all that, there is a reason why the T-90 crew is still feared.

The Arjun can fire Brief case the challanger can fire back packs and the Al-Khalid can fire tiffen box, the Type-96 can fire school bag!!

Impressive understanding of NATO rounds. I am sure Al-Khalid can fire the tiffen box from space onlee.

The accuracy of the T-90 is not as good as the Arjun. This could be due to a variety of reasons. The biggest being the FCS may not be properly calibrated to fire accurately. So, they are perhaps working to change that on the T-90M.

Perhaps because Arjun better tank?

Also, there is no guarantee the Fire on Move is actually useful in battle. If you look at Iraq war, the M1A2's stood still before firing. With the T-90s missile firing capability, the lack of shell accuracy can be curtailed by using only missile against opponents in moving battles. Fire on Move is like bringing a fighter into a dog fight, ie, by getting close to the opponent. Standing still while firing is something like BVR, where you can pick targets 8Kms away using modern TIs and bring the opponent down using missiles. Considering the T-90 fires Refleks while the Arjun Mk1 is not capable of firing Lahats, we know who will win the day for us.

Iraq war the tank battle was on the move onlee, uncle sam tank hitting while moveing but Iraqi tanks have no modern sights or nightvision, so no seeing uncle tank so no moveing! but uncle hitting in while charging, watch video on Discovery. I dont expect you to understand, just take on merit that Paki tanks have better sights so tank will have to fire on the move because they will detect the intruders.

Arjun-1 fireing brief case and tifen box onlee.

"the DRDO's Chief Controller for Armaments and Combat Engineering, has told Business Standard, that all Arjuns now ordered will fire anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) through the tank's main gun;"

"We had test-fired the Israeli LAHAT missile through the Arjun gun as far back as in 2005", pointed out Sundaresh. "It will take us about six months to integrate the LAHAT's designator into the Arjun's fire control system."


Broadsword: Army to order more Arjun tanks

The Challenger II and Abrams are being equipped with ERA for urban battles. The T-90 has excellent armour protection that is better than Arjun. This has been explained in my previous post.

"The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world's heaviest tanks. But the DRDO claims that its powerful 1500 Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight."

Broadsword: Army to order more Arjun tanks

Dont waste my time with an reply on these issues because these provisions can not only be done in MK-2 but also be slaped on Mk-1. Dont argue that ERA or LAHAT designator cant be slapped ON. That would be silly.

The T-90S costs 11 Crores. The Arjun Mk1 costs 17 Crores. This difference is not marginal. The T-90 also carries the latest French TIs while the Mk1 carries previous generation Israeli TIs. The T-90S has missile firing capability unlike the Arjun Mk1. The T-90M cost is unknown, but it won't be as expensive as the Mk2 at 35 Crores.

These are COTS systems, both the Arjun and T-90 are built in Avadi HVF which instals these sub systems so i am sure they have heard of it and considered it.

Considering you believe in a "Developing World Standards" the T-90 is actually a "developed world standard."

The T-90 is being flayed only because people compare it to the T-72 and think it is the same. The difference between a T-72 and a T-90 is just like the difference between a Su-27 and a Su-30MKI.

People fail to grasp that

. Another reason would be because the Arjun Mk1 is a failed tank and their fragile egos do not allow them to wake up to reality. The Mk2 is a good tank, no doubt,

Spare us your self flattering, we dont grasp that? That is your problem you think your some genius ahead of his time and people dont understand you, you poor thing! Throwing out childish cartoons for FMBT idea as if the people in USA and other design bureaus dont get your infatuated wet dreams? Its Childish understanding and everything you say seems to come out of infatuated cartoons and reading stuff on the net and no touch with reality.

Fragile egos or are we looking ahead for the future? This has nothing to do with failed tank, only when we buy stuff and give enough leg room for our under paid and under funded institutions to generate profit over the years from manufacturing they will improve with time. Everything human beings do is through TRAIL AND ERROR method. We did not jump to the cell phone directly from the trunk phone, MARKET FORCES invent as the profit goes up and compete to stay in the market by invent better additions.

What your saying is that Windows must have shut shop because of the millions of times it hanged, it even hanged in its first introduction to the public, thank goodness that Bill Gates did not pay head to such moronic complaints by people who dont understand business and shut shop.

If t-70 and t-90 are from the same base and yet we had to go to Russia to buy that? I would rather bet on Arjun-Mk1,Mk2,Mk3 NONE OF US HERE WANT ARJUN TO BE PERFECT, WE WANT TO START OUR LINE AND CLAW OUR WAY AWAY FROM RUSSIA OR SOME STUPID CUT THROAT VENDER. WE DONT GIVE A F$$$ ABOUT ARJUN NOT BEING AS GOOD AS T-90(WHICH IT IS). GET THAT?

but Army will not buy a new tank when there is only 9 years left for a FMBT, a tank that is being built upto their specifications.

Then US can buy latest FMBT from India and we can junk T-90 and Arjun in just 9 years! No?

The Arjun requires a doctrinal change in tactics and strategy along with logistics. Considering the Cold Start is being exercised using only T-90s for over 10 years, there is no room for Arjun in that doctrine.

Doctrines are not set in stone are they? What doctrine will you set with 40 tanks being inducted?

If the US Army has decided on only upgrading their old Abrams rather than induct the new 40 tons tank that they developed due to budgetery issues, there is no doubt Indian Army will feel the same about going for 2 different tanks at the same time. The logistics footprint for T-72 and T-90 is the same. Considering maintaining a supply chain is the hardest to do on enemy territory, the army will not go ahead and build a whole new supply chain for 500 tanks compared to 3500 T-types. The Arjuns will be relegated to a defensive posture in Rajasthan and Gujarat.

Neither the Engine or the Gear Box of T-90 and T-72 are same, they are two different tanks in all most all aspects apart from tracks, every other moving part which requires change or maintenance is different. All gears, electronics and sub systems are unique to each model. So you already have two different tanks.

Forget Americans, America is not a comparable Military, they spent billions to develop that model. Other militraies we can compare us with like Israel,China, Pakistan all have different tanks. I am more interested in the REAL WAR that we will fight, not WHAT IF we are like USA stuck in Iraq. That is not our problem.

 

[Shaitan]

Does Arjun Mark 2 have a active defence system??

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Does Arjun Mark 2 have a active defence system??

More so than T-90 and it will have Iron Fist which fires at incoming projectiles fired from other tanks or aircraft.

 

[gogbot]

The Arjun was meant for a threat that did not materialize. Also the very fact that it failed trials is the reason why Army went for T-90. It is not Army's fault, but DRDOs. You remember the discussion we had already. So, why flog a dead horse?

I am stating a fact here Army GSQR was an important part to the fault with Arjun. They did'nt want a tank with the Arjuns GSQR when it was ready for them.

This was the case for valid reasons there were changes in the situation , delays foremost among them. They should have have been wiser at formulating that GSQR at the start.

You are being irrational. Just because the GSQR takes a year or two to finalize you are attacking the Army for no fault of theirs.

If you want to buy a car, do you just walk into a random showroom and buy whatever takes your fancy? Never. The Army is the same. They will study for a year or 2 before finalizing the GSQR for FMBT.

The Indian Army has held an "international seminar on future MBTs" back in 2008 ,
where

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2008-07-22/news/28456249_1_tank-mechanised-forces-india-sets

India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks
PTI Jul 22, 2008, 02.33pm IST

NEW DELHI: To keep up with the trend amongst major powers, Indian army on Tuesday set in motion the process of building a futuristic main battle tank (MBT), which will be inducted post 2020.

Army is visualising that the future tanks could be network operated sans the crew and has given the nod for framing general qualitative staff requirements (GQSR) for such a mean machine.

Plans for going in for such smart tanks and infantry combat vehicles were unveiled today at an international seminar on future MBTs, which was attended by the Defence Minister A K Antony and Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor.

"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation.

Asked if a future tank would be an indigenous effort, the Defence Minister said the emphasis would be on building an inhouse tank but, at the same time, did not rule out the possibility of a "collaborative effort on technology sharing basis".

Its 2011 they still don't know what they want ,

Army drags feet on future main battle tank project - Economic Times

Army's futuristic tank programme is likely to be delayed, with the military still procrastinating over its requirements, more than six months after it was scheduled to hand it over to the country's defence research establishment.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is yet to receive a critical document listing the Army's technological and combat wish list for its Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).

The DRDO was keen on finalising the design for the ambitious project by 2013. No indications have been provided by the Army as to when it will hand over the Preliminary Specifications Qualitative Requirements (PSQR), which is seen as a sanction to kick-start development activities on the FMBT.

"The draft PSQR finalised by a former DGM is now being refined by the newly-appointed DGM. Nothing has been finalised yet, and we have not even started any discussions on it," said P Sivakumar, director of Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment.

The document, which is expected to provide a clear technological roadmap of the country's much-vaunted next generation battle tank by broadly listing its main features, is the precursor to the General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) document, which in turn, details its exact features. Due to the delay, drafting the GSQR document would go beyond the year 2012-13.

In September 2010, the CVRDE director had told ET that the Director-General of the Army's Mechanised Forces has communicated that the PSQR would be sent to the DRDO by December last year, once the army gets the necessary feedback from its various divisions relating to the FMBT.

In order to ensure that it hits the ground running as and when it receives the green-light from the Army, the DRDO has decided to start work on the tank project based on the previous draft PSQR. "We are working on the design, based on the draft PSQR. But unless we get a clear confirmation, we will not be able to start action on the development side," Sivakumar said.

Now explain you hold international conference in 08 , where it is officially sanctioned to create the GSQR , its 2011 today and all you have to show is draft PSQR(which contained unrealistic requirement) , with the GQSR not even ready till late 2013.
How the hell does this take 5 years. i Am not being irrational i'm asking question based on what i see.

It is possible. There were fears the F-35A would be cancelled in 2005, the F-22 production has been halted as well. The T-95 GSQR was finalized but the project was cancelled as well. There are hundreds of projects that are cancelled because new threats are born like the Pakistani T-80UD and Al Khalid or when no threat exists like the F-22 or when technology is not feasible for further development like T-95.

Even GSQRs for FB-22 and Black Eagle tank were drawn and cancelled. Even the GSQR for the 40 ton tank meant for the FCS program was drawn and cancelled.

WE are talking about our most high profile project for the Army , something that is expected to form the backbone of force.
Can't that be created in such manner that it would be valid 15 years down the line.

The services struggles most with the PSUs because they are not capable of delivering like they should be. How many times have you kicked out a servant that has not been up to your standards at your own home? So, why should the military be any different?

We all openly curse BSNL for their shoddy customer service as compared to Airtel, why is that? Haven't you given thought on why the Army prefers the Russians or French over DRDO citing similar reasons but is not exposed publicly?

Livefist: COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons

By Admiral Arun Prakash
While it is sometime appropriate to disparage and berate the DRDO for its many delays, failures and false promises, the armed forces need to undertake some soul-searching themselves. Very often it has been their own their own detached attitude, and penchant for the illusory "fast-track" import option that has caused them to bypass any attempt at indigenization, and perpetuate foreign dependence.

The ball has always been in DRDO's court. It is not the Army's fault that the Arjun's engine could not perform or the gun always fell short.

I agree , its their fault it failed the trials in 1998.
But i don't want to walk about the Arjun , its alredy done better than what can be expected at this point.

We are talking about formulating realistic requirements for tank that will form the core of all Armour formations

Production model should be ready for induction by 2020 according to GSQR. But I guess delays are taken into consideration when DRDO handles the project.

We were talking about realistic requirements yes ?

its DRDO's fault if it gets delayed beyond the 2020 deadline for production models , even though it has no GSQR as of today not even the PSQR , and it wont have the GSQR.

FMBT has already been delayed and its not DRDO's fault and this is concerning. I am legitimately concerned the GSQR will not be up to scrap and DRDO would be trying to develop a tank the army will inevitably not want

Ego and Pride are all great but those qualities have never ever won a war in the last 3000 years of human history. The last guy with both these qualities was Hitler.

You sound like glen beck :|
Sorry but Hitler compressions on any thing always piss's me off.

 

[pmaitra]

Guys,

I do not agree with a lot of things p2prada has said and there is possibility of him having a bias, but, his posts are by far the most informative and who does not have a bias? What we are seeing is a lot of name-callings going on here and this is really unfortunate.

The Arjun can fire Brief case the challanger can fire back packs and the Al-Khalid can fire tiffen box, the Type-96 can fire school bag!!

Impressive understanding of NATO rounds. I am sure Al-Khalid can fire the tiffen box from space onlee.

...

Arjun-1 fireing brief case and tifen box onlee.
...

Spare us your self flattering, we dont grasp that? That is your problem you think your some genius ahead of his time and people dont understand you, you poor thing! Throwing out childish cartoons for FMBT idea as if the people in USA and other design bureaus dont get your jobless infatuated wet dreams. Your IQ seems to be lesser than a 16yr old kids because everything you say seems to come out of infatuated cartoons and reading stuff on the net and no touch with reality.

Fragile egos or are we looking ahead for the future? This has nothing to do with failed tank, only when we buy stuff and give enough leg room for our under paid and under funded institutions to generate profit over the years from manufacturing they will improve with time. Everything human beings do is through TRAIL AND ERROR method. We did not jump to the cell phone directly from the trunk phone, MARKET FORCES invent as the profit goes up and compete to stay in the market by invent better additions.

...

@Godless-Kafir,

I have highlighted words from selected portions of your post. You are questioning someone's I.Q. What is your I.Q.? What do you mean by 'wet dreams'? What is 'onlee'? What is 'tifen' or 'tiffen'? What is 'trail and error'? What is 'fireing'?

Why so many typos? You were too enraged perhaps? Just in case you did not know, there is an edit button there. Use it.

Some time back you posted a video and got called out, by Vladimir79.

The good thing is that you have provided some valuable links that pose a valid challenge to p2prada's arguments. That, however is not an excuse to resort to name-calling.

I have never seen such a troll fanboy of foreign products in my whole life like this bs p2prada.He is the biggest looser,even bigger than the Prasun K Gupta.

@Blood,

You are even worse. What do you mean by 'fanboy'? How many of p2prada's posts have you read?

This is not YouTube.

 

[plugwater]

I guess Arjun fans are conveniently forgetting some facts, When DRDO promised to deliver Arjun to IA ? 1999 i think and they readied Arjun by only 2009. Yet you all put blame on IA for not buying it. Its not like IA is sitting on truck load of money which can spend billions on both T-90 and Arjun.

And regarding GSQR, IA must be confused whether to set the requirements of FMBT for 2020 or 3030 going by the previous records of DRDO . Hope they dont run to MoD to force IA to buy their products after 10 years .

 

[pmaitra]

I guess Arjun fans are conveniently forgetting some facts, When DRDO promised to deliver Arjun to IA ? 1999 i think and they readied Arjun by only 2009. Yet you all put blame on IA for not buying it. Its not like IA is sitting on truck load of money which can spend billions on both T-90 and Arjun.

And regarding GSQR, IA must be confused whether to set the requirements of FMBT for 2020 or 3030 going by the previous records of DRDO . Hope they dont run to MoD to force IA to buy their products after 10 years .

Great post manc. You have addressed the psychological side of those who are going to take decisions. BTW, You mean 2030 right?

 

[plugwater]

You mean 2030 right?

Yes Pmaitra. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[plugwater]

More so than T-90 and it will have Iron Fist which fires at incoming projectiles fired from other tanks or aircraft.

Another mistake to put Iron dome in Arjun if trophy is available.