Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Blood+]

WTF!?
Did they fix this $hit in their later models?

Yeah, finally woke up when they designed the ZTZ 99A.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Yeah, finally woke up when they designed the ZTZ 99A2.

Hope we wake up soon as well. FRCV/FMBT/GNMBT. I mean it shouldn't be that hard to make the front of a tank impervious, should it?

 

[Blood+]

Hope we wake up soon as well. FRCV/FMBT/GNMBT. I mean it shouldn't be that hard to make the front of a tank impervious, should it?

Let's hope so. Frankly speaking, call me delusional but I think @Bleh and some others on this forum can do a lot better job making a properly optimized and well balanced MBT design than those hotshot IITians over at the CVRDE.

 

[porky_kicker]

Regarding the Arjun mk1 / mk1a the sad picture being painted IMO is a situation same as a glass half full / half empty.

First official information regarding kanchan armour is not available. It's ability to defeat all kinds of ammo . Such information will never be public . So one can either dish it or favour it.

More or less same for other systems. Information to less or unconfirmed .

People like me support arjun for the reason it is a indigenous effort . Building pedigree is very important . British , Germans have that pedigree of a 100 years , USA 70 years , Russia 70 years or so.

Technology cannot be jumped . It has to be persisted. Pedigree has to be built. It is easier said than done.

Arjun was handicapped by the incompetence and indifference of army armoured core. Tanks are the bread and butter of army. Yet they never invested in developing the human resource inhouse who could support the development of tanks in India. DRDO was always in the blind with respect to operational finesse , on the contrary army was sabotaging the arjun , can you imagine the indifference and criminal culpability ? . Another example is the KE ammo situation , it is basically a circus . One cannot throw money and expect to get what one wants. If that was so easy army would have solved the problem 10s back. Weapon systems procurement doesn't work that way. It is a captive and restrictive market dictated by foreign OEM, you pay through your nose. You literally finance their Weapons development . So who is the joker here.

Arjun survived till date is a miracle , it was trialled by Israelis who had praise for it . Israelis were invited by the army by the way. I cannot guarantee but one arjun was supposedly even taken to Israel.

A army who fights with foreign equipments against a peer army who builds own equipment will always lose or suffer most or pay a heavy price. Eg. India ver China.

It is personal opinion , you might have a different opinion , I have no problem with that .

Eg Google how navy helped drdo to develop sonars . It shows their competence of navy over army , AF . One became a much sought after sonar expert , he ended up in USA , but he continued to provide consultancy.

 

[Blood+]

Regarding the Arjun mk1 / mk1a the sad picture being painted IMO is a situation same as a glass half full / half empty.

First official information regarding kanchan armour is not available. It's ability to defeat all kinds of ammo . Such information will never be public . So one can either dish it or favour it.

More or less same for other systems. Information to less or unconfirmed .

People like me support arjun for the reason it is a indigenous effort . Building pedigree is very important . British , Germans have that pedigree of a 100 years , USA 70 years , Russia 70 years or so.

Technology cannot be jumped . It has to be persisted. Pedigree has to be built. It is easier said than done.

Arjun was handicapped by the incompetence and indifference of army armoured core. Tanks are the bread and butter of army. Yet they never invested in developing the human resource inhouse who could support the development of tanks in India. DRDO was always in the blind with respect to operational finesse , on the contrary army was sabotaging the arjun , can you imagine the indifference and criminal culpability ? . Another example is the KE ammo situation , it is basically a circus . One cannot throw money and expect to get what one wants. If that was so easy army would have solved the problem 10s back. Weapon systems procurement doesn't work that way. It is a captive and restrictive market dictated by foreign OEM, you pay through your nose. You literally finance their Weapons development . So who is the joker here.

Dude, no one here is disputing any of those points. Most people here are actually of the opinion that it was the Army that needs to share the lion's share of the blame for the debacle that is the Arjun project. It was those few top honchos in the armored corps who fucked up the entire program through a combination of sheer incompetence, ignorance to the developments happening around the world and rampant corruption.

So please, do not for a second, let yourself be duped to think that members here are pinning the entire blame on the developers when the reality is the exact opposite. Another huge scam was the shitcanning of the Tank Ex project in favor of the abysmal CIA upgrade package for the T-72M1s which went out of notice by most.

But the designers can not be absolved of their share of the errors either, because that would be considered intellectual dishonesty on our part then.

Arjun survived till date is a miracle ,

Indeed.

it was trialled by Israelis who had praise for it . Israelis were invited by the army by the way. I cannot guarantee but one arjun was supposedly even taken to Israel.

On certain aspects like its cross country mobility and accuracy of the FCS, yes. But what's the point of that enhanced accuracy if your hits can not reliably damage enemy armor??

A army who fights with foreign equipments against a peer army who builds own equipment will always lose or suffer most or pay a heavy price. Eg. India ver China.

Absolutely.

Eg Google how navy helped drdo to develop sonars . It shows their competence of navy over army , AF . One became a much sought after sonar expert , he ended up in USA , but he continued to provide consultancy.

You spoil a kid with everything he demands and he will turn into a brat. But if you make him work for it, he will learn the values of dedication and hard work and grow up into a man. Same situation with the Army and the Navy.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Regarding the Arjun mk1 / mk1a the sad picture being painted IMO is a situation same as a glass half full / half empty.

First official information regarding kanchan armour is not available. It's ability to defeat all kinds of ammo . Such information will never be public . So one can either dish it or favour it.

More or less same for other systems. Information to less or unconfirmed .

People like me support arjun for the reason it is a indigenous effort . Building pedigree is very important . British , Germans have that pedigree of a 100 years , USA 70 years , Russia 70 years or so.

Technology cannot be jumped . It has to be persisted. Pedigree has to be built. It is easier said than done.

Arjun was handicapped by the incompetence and indifference of army armoured core. Tanks are the bread and butter of army. Yet they never invested in developing the human resource inhouse who could support the development of tanks in India. DRDO was always in the blind with respect to operational finesse , on the contrary army was sabotaging the arjun , can you imagine the indifference and criminal culpability ? . Another example is the KE ammo situation , it is basically a circus . One cannot throw money and expect to get what one wants. If that was so easy army would have solved the problem 10s back. Weapon systems procurement doesn't work that way. It is a captive and restrictive market dictated by foreign OEM, you pay through your nose. You literally finance their Weapons development . So who is the joker here.

Arjun survived till date is a miracle , it was trialled by Israelis who had praise for it . Israelis were invited by the army by the way. I cannot guarantee but one arjun was supposedly even taken to Israel.

A army who fights with foreign equipments against a peer army who builds own equipment will always lose or suffer most or pay a heavy price. Eg. India ver China.

It is personal opinion , you might have a different opinion , I have no problem with that .

Eg Google how navy helped drdo to develop sonars . It shows their competence of navy over army , AF . One became a much sought after sonar expert , he ended up in USA , but he continued to provide consultancy.

One would have hoped that once the Army Design Bureau came about, things would markedly improve. They have for the infantry, but not for Armoured it seems.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The mk 2 design was supposed to fix many design related issues with turret and hull of mk1 and mk1a.
Any idea when will it be formally unveiled?

 

[Blood+]

The mk 2 design was supposed to fix many design related issues with turret and hull of mk1 and mk1a.
Any idea when will it be formally unveiled?

Who knows. Personally, I'd just blatantly and shamelessly copy the design of the M1A2 (got enough photographs and literature available these days), possibly with a bustle mounted autoloader and be done with it.

 

[porky_kicker]

You spoil a kid with everything he demands and he will turn into a brat. But if you make him work for it, he will learn the values of dedication and hard work and grow up into a man. Same situation with the Army and the Navy.

I agree.

Not the Navy , it's the army and Air force who are lacking ( there was some grammatical mistakes on my part since I was in a hurry , a stupid bureaucrat today spoiled my entire day )

Technical competence , hand holding and co development has always been the hallmark of navy. There was also some cases were it did not turn out so well but nothing is 100% in this world.

 

[Blood+]

I agree.

Not the Navy , it's the army and Air force who are lacking ( there was some grammatical mistakes on my part since I was in a hurry , a stupid bureaucrat today spoiled my entire day )

Technical competence , hand holding and co development has always been the hallmark of navy. There was also some cases were it did not turn out so well but nothing is 100% in this world.

Sorry for not being clear enough - the Navy was the man in my analogy and Army was the brat.

( there was some grammatical mistakes on my part since I was in a hurry , a stupid bureaucrat today spoiled my entire day )

Well, that's part of their job description.

 

[porky_kicker]

I have a feeling CVRDE has faced so much trouble from the army , that they are hesitant to push changes in Arjun , they don't want to give more excuses to the army to delay the program.

 

[Blood+]

I have a feeling CVRDE has faced so much trouble from the army , that they are hesitant to push changes in Arjun , they don't want to give more excuses to the army to delay the program.

Sometimes I wonder wouldn't it be possible to hire some retired engineers from Germany/USA who had worked on their respective MBTs? Our Army walas seem to love white stuff be it women or weapons, so they shouldn't have any objection with that.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Sometimes I wonder wouldn't it be possible to hire some retired engineers from Germany/USA who had worked on their respective MBTs? Our Army walas seem to love white stuff be it women or weapons, so they shouldn't have any objection with that.

Like kurt tank ?

 

[Blood+]

Like kurt tank ?

Yeah, exactly.

 

[porky_kicker]

Sometimes I wonder wouldn't it be possible to hire some retired engineers from Germany/USA who had worked on their respective MBTs??

Capability is there inhouse , no doubts over it

1. Slope the frontal turret
2. Remove the gunner sight from current position and place it on top of hull in a armoured box.
3. Add ERA / NERA frontal armour over the fully sloped frontal hull, including top.
4. Integrate the CLGM laser designator ahead of the ERA / NERA blocks , run the cables through the top along a conduit and into the hull through a connector built into the hull. ( If possible integrate the designator into the commanders sight itself , so no need of seperate designator )
6. Position the commanders panaromic sight a little back on the elevated hull so that it has a clear LOS over the gunners sight.
7. Rearrange the internal cable harness and sights etc due to the above changes

Given the availability of CAD / virtual design softwares how hard is it ? Less than 6 months required to make the changes and another 6 months to build the turret with the changes.

If the Israeli gunners sight is incompatible with the changes , just install tonbo gunners sight. Plus point is since they are Indian company drdo can ask tonbo to add the CLGM laser designator into the gunners sight itself. Tonbo is fully capable of doing it .

 

[Blood+]

Capability is there inhouse , no doubts over it

1. Slope the frontal hull
2. Remove the gunner sight from current position and place it on top of hull in a armoured box.
3. Add ERA / NERA frontal armour over the fully sloped frontal hull, including top.
4. Integrate the CLGM laser designator ahead of the ERA / NERA blocks , run the cables through the top along a conduit and into the hull through a connector built into the hull. ( If possible integrate the designator into the commanders sight itself , so no need of seperate designator )
6. Position the commanders panaromic sight a little back on the elevated hull so that it has a clear LOS over the gunners sight.
7. Rearrange the internal cable harness and sights etc due to the above changes

Given the availability of CAD / virtual design softwares how hard is it ? Less than 6 months required to make the changes and another 6 months to build the turret with the changes.

You meant turret, right?? Oh and I advocated hiring some western engineers not because I think our guys couldn't do it by themselves but because of our Army's fervent love for white flesh!!

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

You meant turret, right?? Oh and I advocated hiring some western engineers not because I think our guys couldn't do it by themselves but because of our Army's fervent love for white flesh!!

Not really, IAF didn't value marut .
Designer was kurt tank , best german designer of ww2 .
He left India quite dejected they say .
Forces love foreign Maal.

 

[Blood+]

Not really, IAF didn't value marut .
Designer was kurt tank , best german designer of ww2 .
He left India quite dejected they say .
Forces love foreign Maal.

Well, to be fair, Marut was severely handicapped due to unavailability of an engine powerful enough. But still, you do have a point.

 

[porky_kicker]

I really don't have the interest , otherwise I would have shown my design changes to the turret via CAD modelling.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Well, to be fair, Marut was severely handicapped due to unavailability of an engine powerful enough. But still, you do have a point.

Marut was meant to be a subsonic plane , Egypt too was on board for this programme.
I have read they funded too.
Have you noticed how , indian military started to buy soviet weapons in mid sixties and just stopped buying western weapons at all.
Except mirage , shishumar class and jaguar .
Everything Russian.
I wonder , how did it happen ?