Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[gogbot]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All this rumour, and here say.

When will the official report arrive.

Regardless of what ever happened at the test track, The history of the Arjun has prepared me to accept that.
Regardless of however the Arjun has performed on the field, its fate was always held in the balance by the nature of the official statements made after the fact.

Even if the Arjun out shown and outperformed its complimentary the T-90 .

If the army still chooses against the Arjun then that is just how it is .

This whole thing has become a really unhealthy exercise, we should either make a new tank. or move up with Arjun induction.

If we continue to haggle over both these Arjun and T-90 any longer , there unified obsolescence will arrive by the time we are done.

P.S -
why don't you guys finish debating , till we hit the 100 page mark and , new thread will have to be created.

That way we can start the New thread for the Arjun with the Official Army report as the first post

 

[notinlove]

no elctricity at my place since morning .. i would just give my last few posts on this page.. after that m outta here .. no more arjun debates for me .... m rather more interested in Xebex and his love life so ill stick to that .. ciao

 

[Soham]

Well, you had a lot more endurance than me.

 

[notinlove]

ofc you can beleive the quoted figures are exaggerated.

I believe what the manufacturer claims, and that is 8 km from a helo .. not a ground platform.

may be some member here like Ray sir can can throw more light on this. i have not seen any info in open domain as of now.

Providing a source in next post.

indeed. it wil be operational unless ofcourse army objects to that too.

When?

i would greatly appreciate if you respect a contrary view and keep it civil. it is a request.

My bad , but the contrary view is just based on Mr. shukla's random musings , without any shred of evidence , so its kinda hard to respect it.

ofcourse you can and you are free to. point is whether people beleive it or not.

Yeah i guess , if you have chosen to believe something so religiously i can't change it , galileo was killed for saying that the earth moves around the sun.

 

[notinlove]

Pakistan made it a point to ukraine to put 1200hp engine. i have posted the links in this or the al khalid thread. it will be tough getting them but will try and post later.

you have given your link and i have given mine but the reality is Pakistan's T-80UD does have 1200hp engine as per the specs in the link i gave.

even their AL KHALED tank sports 1200/1250hp engine!!

I have given you the webpage of the mazarrov design beaureau .. which is the manufacturer or the T-80UD ... and it clearly states pakistani T-80 have the 6TD-1 , 1000 HP engine...i cannot do anything more , the pakistanis won't lemme sneak a peek .... believe it or not its upto you ... but when a manufacturer says something .. i believe him .. otherwise conversing on defenceforums are a futile exercise because almost 99.99 percent of open source info is manufacturer claims .

unless the army or GOI denies/repudiates it, it will be so.

ALL NEW ARJUNS MADE IN OR AFTER 2010 WILL COST 50 CRORES

i have just made a claim , unlessl the drdo denies/repudiates it will be so.

 

[xebex]

no elctricity at my place since morning .. i would just give my last few posts on this page.. after that m outta here .. no more arjun debates for me .... m rather more interested in Xebex and his love life so ill stick to that .. ciao

sorry for being off topic, but SCREW U NIL

 

[notinlove]

Obviously it can be removed in any of the tanks. But how come its modular? And can you give an example that T-90 engine can be removed/ replaced in a shorter time than Arjun? You are typing contrary to all that is known about T-90 vs Arjun.

here is the dictionary definition of modular

mod·u·lar :adj.Designed with standardized units or dimensions, as for easy assembly and repair or flexible arrangement and use

So yes the the gun is modular and that is why i said all modern mbt's use modular design to some extent.

This was not done without breakdowns – f.ex. the engine was overheated. Supposedly the driver who had the appropriate controls, let this happen deliberately. The entire even had a marketing purpose – to show the Malaysians the vitality and liability for repairs of the tank. The crew in 4 hours, with 2 pals and ropes, took out the engine, repaired it continued with the tests. After the tests, the same engine was again checked by Malaysians on the additional test rides which lasted 9h. Other tanks participating in the trial after major failures had to be transported to workshops.
http://knol.google.com/k/t-90#

I know the source does not seem very credible , but i have read this on several other sources .. which i am unable to find now , believe it or not is uto you.....
BTW the kyewords here are REPAIR and ROPES ... if they had to just replace the engine and that too with proper support equipment .. i guess it would have taken a lot less time.

 

[notinlove]

Actually T-90 S costs may exceed what Ajai is saying. But, we need to understand what in your POV is the actual cost. We better go with a known devil than somebody unknown.

The defence minister stated the cost as 12 crore in WRITTEN in the LOKSABHA , i don't think that is unknown knowledge, and i never argued about buying or not buying arjun tanks .... if you go to the first post which started this whole argument .. you can see i was just trying to bust several myths regarding the T-90 .. no arjun

 

[ppgj]

I believe what the manufacturer claims, and that is 8 km from a helo .. not a ground platform.

sir, i said, generally, open sources about such matters are undervalued by the armed forces/govt's for a reason (to fool the adversaries and keep them guessing and surprise them at the hustings!!) whereas you said it is exaggerated. it is clear we disagree. so agree to disagree is what i meant in my last post.

Providing a source in next post.

but you yourself consider it as not credible!! rightly so because it does not have a name. who wrote it? what is the basis for it? it is very unclear.

however, credible or not what it establishes is T-90 is nothing but T-72 with added ERA!! hence what applies to T-72 will apply to T-90 logically thinking.

When?

you will know when that happens. as i said Arjuns will not need them for now. may be T-series will sport them.

My bad , but the contrary view is just based on Mr. shukla's random musings , without any shred of evidence , so its kinda hard to respect it.

but the musings come from a credible man who is an ex-tank man who has served this country honourably and is a very respected defence journalist. hence his musings are not only beleivable but credible. more so because the army/GOI have not denied it!!

however my request to you was not to respect him or his musings or contrarian views based on his reports, if, you so deem it but to be tolerant to them. that is all. it helps a healthy debate - which is why we are here.

Yeah i guess , if you have chosen to believe something so religiously i can't change it , galileo was killed for saying that the earth moves around the sun.

OT. i have no idea about this. moreover not relevant to the topic. Ajai shukla's cliams are relevant to the thread because we are debating the MBT for IA and the fight is between T-90 and Arjun.

 

[ppgj]

I have given you the webpage of the mazarrov design beaureau .. which is the manufacturer or the T-80UD ... and it clearly states pakistani T-80 have the 6TD-1 , 1000 HP engine...i cannot do anything more , the pakistanis won't lemme sneak a peek .... believe it or not its upto you ... but when a manufacturer says something .. i believe him .. otherwise conversing on defenceforums are a futile exercise because almost 99.99 percent of open source info is manufacturer claims .

right. but i have given my sources too which contradict that. also lets take a look at the link you gave in the previous post -

This move by India was necessity to counter Pakistani armored forces, which in the last years acquired 320 Ukrainian T-84s.

http://knol.google.com/k/t-90#

so it is T-84 (an upgraded T-80UD, with 1200 hp engine) which pakistan bought. that should be clear enough.

ALL NEW ARJUNS MADE IN OR AFTER 2010 WILL COST 50 CRORES

i have just made a claim , unlessl the drdo denies/repudiates it will be so.

but the difference here is you are just an individual like me. Ajai shukla is a journalist, he represents the media!!!

you must have seen everytime when media reflected and revved up on the chinese intrusions at the border clarifications were coming from both the Army and GOI!! this happened in the very recent past. so is the case with many other issues media keeps raking up!! the relevant authorities do clarify!! it is democracy.

if you were part of the media, it will be clarified unless there is something which meets more than the eye!!!

 

[Armand2REP]

You guys still arguing over Lahat? The only thing official I have seen is 6km+ from the ground and 8km+ from the air. The IAI site clearly states navale Lahat as 6km. Lahat is a very light weight missile which doesn't carry much propellant and helos aren't going to launch it from great altitudes. 8km is stated as its max range and that would be for helicopters.

 

[sayareakd]

here are specifications for LAHAT
Specifications
Weight 13.5 kg
Length 97.5 cm
Diameter 105 mm
Warhead Tandem HEAT
Warhead weight 4.5 kg
Operational
range 8000 m
Speed 285-300 m/s
Guidance
system Semi-Active Laser Homing
Launch
platform 105 - 120 mm smooth bore

and here is specification for modified LAHAT which is CLGM

range: 5 KM
weight: 18.5 kg
speed 250 m/s
length: 1025 mm
diameter: 120 mm

 

[notinlove]

sir, i said, generally, open sources about such matters are undervalued by the armed forces/govt's for a reason (to fool the adversaries and keep them guessing and surprise them at the hustings!!) whereas you said it is exaggerated. it is clear we disagree. so agree to disagree is what i meant in my last post.

lets just move on.

but you yourself consider it as not credible!! rightly so because it does not have a name. who wrote it? what is the basis for it? it is very unclear.

however, credible or not what it establishes is T-90 is nothing but T-72 with added ERA!! hence what applies to T-72 will apply to T-90 logically thinking

i knew you would not believe it .. so i wrote it myself .. to save some time .. however do take a look at this....

Renk has manufactured a powerpack for the T-72 and T-90 .. which they claim can be replaced in less than under an hour.... so it is very much possible to manufacture such an engine. and beats you'r assumption that it takes to dismantle the turret in a T-72 to change the engine .. BTW you still havent provided a souce for it

you will know when that happens. as i said Arjuns will not need them for now. may be T-series will sport them.

With the delays and the Indigenous excuses that DRDO comes uyp for the delays, i wouldn't believe in it till the day i see it on an operational tank .

but the musings come from a credible man who is an ex-tank man who has served this country honourably and is a very respected defence journalist. hence his musings are not only beleivable but credible. more so because the army/GOI have not denied it!!

however my request to you was not to respect him or his musings or contrarian views based on his reports, if, you so deem it but to be tolerant to them. that is all. it helps a healthy debate - which is why we are here.



OT. i have no idea about this. moreover not relevant to the topic. Ajai shukla's cliams are relevant to the thread because we are debating the MBT for IA and the fight is between T-90 and Arjun.

You are debating MBT for IA .. once again go back and look what i started my first post with ... JUST TO BUST SEVERAL MYTHS ABOUT THE T-90 ,

 

[notinlove]

here are specifications for LAHAT
Specifications
Weight 13.5 kg
Length 97.5 cm
Diameter 105 mm
Warhead Tandem HEAT
Warhead weight 4.5 kg
Operational
range 8000 m
Speed 285-300 m/s
Guidance
system Semi-Active Laser Homing
Launch
platform 105 - 120 mm smooth bore

and here is specification for modified LAHAT which is CLGM

range: 5 KM
weight: 18.5 kg
speed 250 m/s
length: 1025 mm
diameter: 120 mm

Thank You sayare Sir ....as you can see PPgj .. as i said before the range is just about 5 km.

 

[notinlove]

right. but i have given my sources too which contradict that. also lets take a look at the link you gave in the previous post -



http://knol.google.com/k/t-90#

so it is T-84 (an upgraded T-80UD, with 1200 hp engine) which pakistan bought. that should be clear enough.

The manufacturer claims otherwise... if you still want to believe it . go believe it .. i cannot help it.

but the difference here is you are just an individual like me. Ajai shukla is a journalist, he represents the media!!!

you must have seen everytime when media reflected and revved up on the chinese intrusions at the border clarifications were coming from both the Army and GOI!! this happened in the very recent past. so is the case with many other issues media keeps raking up!! the relevant authorities do clarify!! it is democracy.

if you were part of the media, it will be clarified unless there is something which meets more than the eye!!!

The media is always credible ??

Let me ask , where did he get this figure of 17.5 crore ?

If it is so true then why does he not publish the proof?

and the most important question ...

When the T-90 is so susceptible to inflation , is the arjun immune to it ?

Has DRDO built a machine which defies Economics?

Who is assuring that every new ordered arjun will cost 16.8 crores,? because as far as i know initial arjuns ordered were in mar 2000 , and the cost of defence equipment doubles every 5 years, economy of scale might give a lil respite , but not so much? and please dont gimme bull answers like many equipment will be made indigenous with further orders , because changing equipment means more trials and that is one thing we cannot afford.

 

[sayareakd]

Thank You sayare Sir ....as you can see PPgj .. as i said before the range is just about 5 km.

that range is as per the broacher of the DRDO, remember they only give less range............ just like other missiles.

 

[notinlove]

I am outta here . no more posts by me in this thread .ciao .....i

 

[sayareakd]

I am outta here . no more posts by me in this thread .ciao .....i

relax have beer, this is what democracy is, where you can express your views.

 

[ppgj]

lets just move on.

ok.

i knew you would not believe it .. so i wrote it myself .. to save some time ..

so what does it mean? about the Knol link you gave?

does it mean it is "not credible" or "credible" according to you?

however do take a look at this....

Renk has manufactured a powerpack for the T-72 and T-90 .. which they claim can be replaced in less than under an hour.... so it is very much possible to manufacture such an engine.

point here is not about engine. RATHER replacement of the engine during breakdowns which means, we are talking tank design which makes it possible and not the design of the engine itself.

i have already given links in this regard about Arjun being modular and it takes only 45 minutes to replace the engine!! drdo then head dr. Natarajan spoke that and it is testified by the 43rd regiment of the indian army!!

and beats you'r assumption that it takes to dismantle the turret in a T-72 to change the engine .. BTW you still havent provided a souce for it

ok. here -

peace time replacement time under ideal conditions 4X mechanics - 24 hrs

during operations with war footing work - 12 hrs!!

this relevant portion from page 46 from this link (a dissertation by col.S S Sharma at CDM (college of defence management). a must read for all.

and i would guess considering the time it takes - removal of turret is necessary!!

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...02Zkqq&sig=AHIEtbTMw_PgfohUmXgXkmpuG9jQdZLFJg

With the delays and the Indigenous excuses that DRDO comes uyp for the delays, i wouldn't believe in it till the day i see it on an operational tank .

no problem. hope the army agrees when it happens.

You are debating MBT for IA .. once again go back and look what i started my first post with ... JUST TO BUST SEVERAL MYTHS ABOUT THE T-90 ,

go to your original post. you brought in Arjun into the picture in your point number 2 of that post. later you brought T-80 into the discussion!!

PS : will answer the other post tomorrow.

 

[Ray]

As far as the media is concerned, I watched a DD programme (yes, Doordarshan) moderated by a lady and it was on PAID NEWS and as per one of the participants, who I think is a journalist, who lamented this 'cancer'!!

Thus, what is the reality is for anyone to guess.

However, one should remember the English idiom - He who pays the Piper, calls the tune!!