Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[notinlove]

lol i just dint realise it until now ................ the NY times calls the RPG-29 an advanced anti tank weapon

 

[Daredevil]

LWCS is not an APS lol. and moreover does your LWCS come for free ?? as my argument is about cost.

LWCS is similar to Soft kill ( or passive countermeasure) measures of an APS. If you read again, LWCS includes laser warning system, Infra Red jammers and aerosol grenade smokes, and will help reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability. All above mentioned components do form a part of APS if not all. Take the example of Shtora APS - it also has laser warning system, infrared jammer and aerosol grenade smokes. So, LWCS is kind of passive APS if not active APS.

LWCS doesn't come for free, so does LEDS-150 APS on T-90. If we can buy LEDS-150 for T-90 why can't we do the same for Arjun??.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Products...oductId=1448

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fi...tection_System

Btw india has bought the first one ie LEDS 150

The SAAB page says the LEDS-150 can stop RPG-7 type RPGs which are obsolete weapons now. What abt RPG-29???

 

[Agantrope]

I am waiting for IA's response on the T-95 that to be unveiled.

It will weigh about 55 tons and its speed will increase from 30-50 kph to 50-65 kph (19-31 mph to 31-40 mph).

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100326/158314386.html

And my questions will be

If arjun cant be deployed on the punjab plains, how come this candy moves there.
Bridges are problem for arjun, then this piece will fly if there is no bridge
Transportation, If arjun cant be, then how come this beast.


Watch this space for more...
Also

 

[Agantrope]

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html

see the results for yourself and decide which is better protected T-80 or T-90.. and that was back in 1999 .. our T-90 contain the kanchan and also next generation ERA .. they are certainly better.... and i agree they lack the apu..that is one thing that should be rectified.
russia's dint buy t-90 cos their economy dint allow them to

T-90 can be fitted with the Kanchan Armour and the kaktus (not sure) ERA. NIL, bulls eyes. Russian economy prevents them from buying the T-90 as few weeks back we saw 100s of working T-80 abandoned in the russian forests.

btw, i dont why people are hitting the T-90 this hard. To maintain the fleet strength we need a large number of T-90s. It is really absurd to compare apples and oranges. But when coming T-90s are favourd for the arjun it hurts a little. My above post will tell about the T-95 coming in the scene

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

i don't understand one thing about arjun is that why does it have a straight armour instead of a sloped one?
the sloped armour design provides better protection by DEFLECTING incomming projectlies rather than absorb the impact almost all the best tanks in the world has sloped armour like markeva IV, abrams

 

[sandeepdg]

T-90 can be fitted with the Kanchan Armour and the kaktus (not sure) ERA.

The question I would ask is that how good is the Kanchan ERA suite is as compared to the Kontakt-5 ERA used by the Russians on their T-80s and T-90s ? Over that Russia will use the newer Kaktus ERA for its T-95 MBT (not confirmed) as well as uses it on the T-90M also. Ukraine also uses the Kontakt-5 on its T-80s. India will get the latest T-90M with Kaktus ERA. Also the comparative protection trails of T-80 and T-90 were done with both tanks fitted the Kontakt-5 ERA with showed that the T-90 had a good survivability against both ATGMs and APFSDS munitions. Only the RPG-29 could penetrate the ERA armour, 3 out of 5 times. But then , the kind of weapon the RPG-29 is, no modern MBT in the world can withstand multiple hits with this weapon !! As long as the Kanchan equipped T-90 or Arjun undergo a similar type of comparative protection trails, it can't be determined how good it is and which tank is more suitable for this ERA suite.

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html

 

[gogbot]

I am waiting for IA's response on the T-95 that to be unveiled.




http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100326/158314386.html

And my questions will be

If arjun cant be deployed on the punjab plains, how come this candy moves there.
Bridges are problem for arjun, then this piece will fly if there is no bridge
Transportation, If arjun cant be, then how come this beast.


Watch this space for more...
Also

The IA can never ask for the T-95 after the comments it made on the Arjun.

It is unjustifiable for it to demand another heavy tank after the years of unnecessary comments it made, If it wants to induct the T-95 it needs to induct the Arjun in Numbers and then say weight is not an issue

 

[gogbot]

i don't understand one thing about arjun is that why does it have a straight armour instead of a sloped one?
the sloped armour design provides better protection by DEFLECTING incomming projectlies rather than absorb the impact almost all the best tanks in the world has sloped armour like markeva IV, abrams

It does have slopped armour you just have to look at it from a proper angle.
The slope is more horizontal than Vertical.

Arjun turret on the Tank-EX

 

[Agantrope]

The IA can never ask for the T-95 after the comments it made on the Arjun.

It is unjustifiable for it to demand another heavy tank after the years of unnecessary comments it made, If it wants to induct the T-95 it needs to induct the Arjun in Numbers and then say weight is not an issue

IA said it interested in the T-95 when the prototype rolled out for the tests. Will get the source soon later.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

It does have slopped armour you just have to look at it from a proper angle.
The slope is more horizontal than Vertical.

okay i see it now thanx man

 

[san]

IA said it interested in the T-95 when the prototype rolled out for the tests. Will get the source soon later.

If it is true, then it shows IA's duplicity towards Arjun. How can IA will justify a 55 Ton ( the tank required to be heavy as the gun will be either135 mm or 152 mm as per wiki) T95 will fit in IA's war doctrine but 58 Ton Arjun will not. But who knows IA may keep maximum weight for their FMBT at 55 Ton.

 

[notinlove]

LWCS is similar to Soft kill ( or passive countermeasure) measures of an APS. If you read again, LWCS includes laser warning system, Infra Red jammers and aerosol grenade smokes, and will help reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability. All above mentioned components do form a part of APS if not all. Take the example of Shtora APS - it also has laser warning system, infrared jammer and aerosol grenade smokes. So, LWCS is kind of passive APS if not active APS.

Its about 50 percent of a soft kill APS .... not even a complete soft kill APS , whereas we are talking about APS with both soft and hard kil capacities ... LWCS is not even in the league :|l

LWCS doesn't come for free, so does LEDS-150 APS on T-90. If we can buy LEDS-150 for T-90 why can't we do the same for Arjun??.

fit whatever you please .. but just don't quote the price of T-90 as 18 crore then.

The SAAB page says the LEDS-150 can stop RPG-7 type RPGs which are obsolete weapons now. What abt RPG-29???

It destroys the weapon 5m away from the tank .. so be it the RPG-7 or the RPG-29 .. it wouldn't cause any difference .. just a louder bang that's all.

 

[ppgj]

I correct myself the range would be around 5 km and not 6 as previously stated . i took the height of arjun as 3.32 instead of 2.32 now considering the formula for distance that can be seen is sqrt(13h) putting the height as 2.32 gives the range as 5.49 km .. now you can safely assume that the targeting system and range finder would be placed atleast slightly below that top height of 2.32 km and you can get the range as just about 5 km

i am not going to dispute that. you may be right but this still applies for a tank firing on another tank direct LOS. but LAHAT can have an LOS designated by another tank at a different place closer to the enemy tank or even by air by a heli or a UAV. that the range is 8km is proven and accepted is a fact.

This i agree to .. but one thing that bugs me is ...

ok.

in case of being penetrated , and then the shrapnel or whatever reaching past the cabin and into the ammo dump .. what are the chances of survival of the crew anyways ??? is this just a western propaganda to imply that their tanks are better ??

even direct hits will have a problem against the kanchan armour. i doubt the shrapnels will prove so deadly considering they have to pierce thro' a complete layer of the armour!!

however i am not saying that Arjun gives 100% protection against all threats. no tank gives that. the point i am making is by design T-90 is inferior. Arjun/Merkava/Abrahms are by design superior. ammo dump being separate is an important factor.

This is an honest question and please don't drag me into the mud over this ....

what mudslinging?? we are just debating.

a soldier should feel confident when driving a tank to the enemy and this confidence should come from the faith that his tank protects him better and not by a BRAVADO of national pride in crunch times.

can you backup your claim? that the cost of T-90 includes the cost of support vehicles?


From Mr. Shukla's revered blog
so if you are considering the price as 18 crore then it contains the support vehicles .. if you are taking it as 11 crore then that's fine. mind you he also calculates the price of invar missiles in those 18 crores .

quoting your lines from Ajai's blog -

The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore,

read on the same. unit cost of T-90 is 17.5 crore and not with support vehicles you are saying.

at best, Arjuns with APS may cost as much but the economics of scale will kick in for Arjuns when bigger orders come and this will bring down the cost further.

i would not want to wait that long
here are some links
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/era.html
here is a very interesting discussion between me and kuku ..
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions/page49

i have read Fofanov's page long back. though from it, T-90 seems to be better than T-80 but still not great against RPG 29. Pakistan will have already corrected for that and the fact that both their T-80's and AL-KHALIDS have 1200/1250 hp engines and APU's will make them better than our T-90.

 

[notinlove]

i am not going to dispute that. you may be right but this still applies for a tank firing on another tank direct LOS. but LAHAT can have an LOS designated by another tank at a different place closer to the enemy tank or even by air by a heli or a UAV. that the range is 8km is proven and accepted is a fact.

the manufacturer claims 8 km max range including attack platform as helo...and the longest it has ever hit is 7 km .. that too when launched from a cobra helo.... i dont know why i should believe anything else.

even direct hits will have a problem against the kanchan armour. i doubt the shrapnels will prove so deadly considering they have to pierce thro' a complete layer of the armour!!

however i am not saying that Arjun gives 100% protection against all threats. no tank gives that. the point i am making is by design T-90 is inferior. Arjun/Merkava/Abrahms are by design superior. ammo dump being separate is an important factor.

the design flaw is there.....but is it really a design flaw? if the shrapnel is going through the crew cabin and then reaching the ammo dump .. i doubt it will spare the crew members in any case .
and by the highlighted logic .. T-90 has 2 complete layers of armour .. and one of them is said to be the same kanchan armour

quoting your lines from Ajai's blog -



read on the same. unit cost of T-90 is 17.5 crore and not with support vehicles you are saying.

at best, Arjuns with APS may cost as much but the economics of scale will kick in for Arjuns when bigger orders come and this will bring down the cost further.

Can somebody anybody .. anywhere in the world .. gimme a shred of evidence that the cost has ballooned to 17.5 crore without taking the APS, and support vehicles into account?..as per my comprehension Mr. shukla is calculating the cost by taking into account the cost of APS , support vehicles , even the missiles and then stating it as 17.5 crores.

i have read Fofanov's page long back. though from it, T-90 seems to be better than T-80 but still not great against RPG 29. Pakistan will have already corrected for that and the fact that both their T-80's and AL-KHALIDS have 1200/1250 hp engines and APU's will make them better than our T-90.

That was back in 1999 .. the russians have jumped 2 whole generations in ERA since then namely the kaktus and relikt..and nobody makes better ERA than the russians..moreover the armour beneath the era is also vastly superior in the T-90 when compared to T-80.. so i sincerely believe that the T-90 beats T-80 in terms of protection hands down.our thermals are better than theirs...guns are similar .. an APU alone will not guarantee their superiority.

 

[sayareakd]

Japanies Type 90 MBT

for those who argue for slop armour.

 

[Agantrope]

Sloped armour is the tech of WWII. I hope this unconventional design will set a new bar. I hope Leopard is also not sloped armour.

 

[Armand2REP]

Japanies Type 90 MBT

for those who argue for slop armour.

Slop armour... lol. You do know what the slope is for? Projectiles that contact have to travel greater distance for penetration while using less material keeping weight down. It certainly isn't revolutionary, it has been used since the first Ironclad barges. But it is effective.

 

[Armand2REP]

Sloped armour is the tech of WWII. I hope this unconventional design will set a new bar. I hope Leopard is also not sloped armour.

Leopard 2A6 does indeed have sloped armour.

 

[bengalraider]

@ Saya and agan,
the Type 90 and the arjun both benefited from limited design consultancy provided by krauss maffei Krupp mak (the guys who built the Leo 2) ; hence the common horizontally sloped armor with the arjun.the future tanks of both nations are destined to have far more rakish profiles with spaced and sloped armor on both axes

a video of the new japanese MBT is posted below first seen in 2007
as for the leo heres the evolution of the design

leo 2 prototype

plain jane 2A4

further development 2A5

2A6M

2A6HEL

2E

Leo 2PSO
ther was even a 140mm gun armed prototype of the leo built

 

[san]

Leopard 2A6 does indeed have sloped armour.

[/QUOT
The turret is highly sloped only on front side.It is also same for Challnger2. What will happen if the hit is on left, right or rear side? The tank will blow up like a T series tank ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Challenger_II.jpg