Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Ray]

It is not due to imported content Sir, but low number of orders at industrial scale ..

Such low number discourage R&D as well as those Pvt players involve, I hope for the best ..

What has low numbers got to do with imported parts not being available?

Whatever be the number, if the parts, assemblies, sub assemblies are not available, what can be done?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Low numbers will not only insure lack of spares of imported parts but as well as Indegenious parts, As the number of unit decides duration of running of assemblies lines and pre order of spares which are imported in mass ..

Adding to above point it should be also noted that due to such low order of units, The overhaul facilities are not yet setup at field areas ..

What has low numbers got to do with imported parts not being available?

Whatever be the number, if the parts, assemblies, sub assemblies are not available, what can be done?

 

[ersakthivel]

As it transpires armata too seems to weigh above 60 tons, reasons cited are extra armor, safe ammo storage!!!!.

If the russians do it it is right and if CVRDE does it it seems to be wrong !!!!

 

[Ray]

Sir, Low numbers will not only insure lack of spares of imported parts but as well as Indegenious parts, As the number of unit decides duration of running of assemblies lines and pre order of spares which are imported in mass ..

Adding to above point it should be also noted that due to such low order of units, The overhaul facilities are not yet setup at field areas ..

You must understand procurement policy to understand that low numbers are not material.

It has nothing to do with low or high numbers.

It is based on the life cycle calculations and the life of each part/ assembly.

How do you think first line, second line, WWR is determined and stocked?

How do you think workshops stock their spares?

It is based on life cycle of parts/ assemblies/ sub assemblies.

Tanks are not overhauled in the field area.

They are overhauled in the Base Workshops.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, The point you mention are correct and true in their scene, But issue here is lack of spare not only imported, Following points below >>

1. Lower number is deciding factor of duration assemblies lines running for spares which are pre order from Pvt industry, Pvt industries also have their own production facilities which manufacture such low quantity for short order and then remain idle even when their is requirement..

2. The pre calculation of spare for a tank / Arty / Vehicle life cycle in India is always messed up, Let it be other tanks of IA also, 900 T-72M1 remain junked as they don`t have spares, T-72M1 are made in India completely afaik , This is something noticeable and common around..

3. My bad Sir, I was using layman`s language to say base workshops are field workshops, Lack of overhauling facilities of Arjun is a major reason for lack of spares as it is a lot more expensive to design and made a tank than to make overhaul facilities all over the country, This factor is mostly overlooked and the factor is very serious..

You must understand procurement policy to understand that low numbers are not material.

It has nothing to do with low or high numbers.

It is based on the life cycle calculations and the life of each part/ assembly.

How do you think first line, second line, WWR is determined and stocked?

How do you think workshops stock their spares?

It is based on life cycle of parts/ assemblies/ sub assemblies.

Tanks are not overhauled in the field area.

They are overhauled in the Base Workshops.

 

[Ray]

Sir, The point you mention are correct and true in their scene, But issue here is lack of spare not only imported, Following points below >>


1. Lower number is deciding factor of duration assemblies lines running for spares which are pre order from Pvt industry, Pvt industries also have their own production facilities which manufacture such low quantity for short order and then remain idle even when their is requirement..


2. The pre calculation of spare for a tank / Arty / Vehicle life cycle in India is always messed up, Let it be other tanks of IA also, 900 T-72M1 remain junked as they don`t have spares, T-72M1 are made in India completely afaik , This is something noticeable and common around..


3. My bad Sir, I was using layman`s language to say base workshops are field workshops, Lack of overhauling facilities of Arjun is a major reason for lack of spares as it is a lot more expensive to design and made a tank than to make overhaul facilities all over the country, This factor is mostly overlooked and the factor is very serious..

You must understand that pvt industries are not given orders without a tender listing out the requirement and further requirement.


The pvt industry bids for the contract with eyes and ears open. Unless it is lucrative, they will not bid.


Tank parts/ assemblies/ sub-assemblies are not run of the mill items that there can be fly by night orders. There has to be a sizeable order to make it economically viable. After all, the pvt industry is not a social organisation, but that works for profits. Setting up an assembly line, making dies, getting specialised engineers and technicians is not a small issue.


As far as imported parts/ assemblies/ sub-assemblies are concerned, they are ‘current’ in the country of its origin and are also being used in their country and so there is no issue of they not being available. That they are not available, indicates lack of foresight and vision in the procurement agencies, and in this case, the Avadi.


Nothing is junked up. It is just lack of foresight, vision and lacklustre sub chalta hai attitude.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Afaik their are not many companies in India are equipped to deal with Tank manufacturing, Their are fewer companies which are listed for this like Arjun track and suspension are made by L&T and their are none other, And another Bangalore based company assigned for electronics besides BEL ..

How can one launched a tender with so few qualified companies ?

=============

Sir, Completely agree with you regarding Avadi`s management and People related with it ..

You must understand that pvt industries are not given orders without a tender listing out the requirement and further requirement.That they are not available, indicates lack of foresight and vision in the procurement agencies, and in this case, the Avadi.

Nothing is junked up. It is just lack of foresight, vision and lacklustre sub chalta hai attitude.

 

[Ray]

Sir, Afaik their are not many companies in India are equipped to deal with Tank manufacturing, Their are fewer companies which are listed for this like Arjun track and suspension are made by L&T and their are none other, And another Bangalore based company assigned for electronics besides BEL ..

How can one launched a tender with so few qualified companies ?

=============

Sir, Completely agree with you regarding Avadi`s management and People related with it ..

Have you not heard that single company being given a contract is a taboo in the Defence Procurement Policy.

That is why for the Rafael deal which sunk and there was just this one company it became a Govt to Govt issue so that there was no circumventing of the Rafael deal through the tender path.

However, there are provisions for Single Tender in the Defence Procurement Manual 2009

4.4.1 Single Tender Enquiry (STE): Procurement from a single source may be resorted to with the prior approval of the CFA and in consultation with the IFA, where required as per delegation of financial powers for reasons to be recorded in writing in the following circumstances, after determining reasonableness of the rates:

(a) In a case of emergency/urgency, the required goods are necessarily to be purchased from a particular source. (b) On account of any other operational or technical requirement, which should, however, be clearly recorded.

and

4.6.1 Single Bid system: For stores available commercially off-the-shelf (COTS) and LP items, where qualitative requirements and technical specifications are clear, single commercial bid system may be followed. This system may also be followed for other procurements of non-complex nature. No sample should be called for in single bid system at the RFP stage.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Exactly Sir, Their are selected Indian Companies provide the hardware ..

Almost all Modern Indian fighting system gets 70% of their sub system from Private sector ..

I cannot say much about this as their is not much on the net for learning ..

Have you not heard that single company being given a contract is a taboo in the Defence Procurement Policy.

 

[Pret]

Hlo....I am new here....
I read many comments by experts about Arjun MBT especially Arjun MK-1....that MK-1 don't have a sloppy armour.... even WW2 T-34 have slopped armour....but did anyone notice that modern APFSDS penetrate slopped armour more easily.....

 

[Hari Sud]

Do I read from the lively discussion of Ray and Kunal that project Arjun is history.

If the reports are to be believed then most of Arjun tanks supplied to the army are back in workshop, requiring assemblies and sub assemblies which cannot be serviced in India, hence had to be sent back to the European suppliers for refurbishing.

It is a pitiful situation, the much touted Indian Ferrari meets an unnatural death.

Who caused it:

1. The incompetent DRDO

2. Cleverly disguised import lobby, who wished Arjun tank project dead.

3. The Indian Army who misused the Arjun tank in the field, just to fail the project.

Whatever the cause, it is a shame.

May I remind, quite a few of these parts which are imported from Germany/Israel/UK are standard parts used in their own tanks. So, how can they fail so early unless somebody was tempering with them to make them fail. Or an incompetent DRDO assembled these parts incorrectly?

Military lobby of ex servicemen always wished to import, they were aided by serving servicemen. Together they could create a situation in which equipment is misused and forced to fail.

Do not be surprised if that becomes the main reason of failure. The story is being repeated in LCA by the IAF.

We have retire without perks some Generals, some Marshals and most of the DRDO staff.

 

[pmaitra]

Hlo....I am new here....
I read many comments by experts about Arjun MBT especially Arjun MK-1....that MK-1 don't have a sloppy armour.... even WW2 T-34 have slopped armour....but did anyone notice that modern APFSDS penetrate slopped armour more easily.....

Please introduce yourself by opening a new thread here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/s/introductions-greetings.5/

Also, welcome to DFI.

 

[ersakthivel]

Do I read from the lively discussion of Ray and Kunal that project Arjun is history.

If the reports are to be believed then most of Arjun tanks supplied to the army are back in workshop, requiring assemblies and sub assemblies which cannot be serviced in India, hence had to be sent back to the European suppliers for refurbishing.

It is a pitiful situation, the much touted Indian Ferrari meets an unnatural death.

Who caused it:

1. The incompetent DRDO

2. Cleverly disguised import lobby, who wished Arjun tank project dead.

3. The Indian Army who misused the Arjun tank in the field, just to fail the project.

Whatever the cause, it is a shame.

May I remind, quite a few of these parts which are imported from Germany/Israel/UK are standard parts used in their own tanks. So, how can they fail so early unless somebody was tempering with them to make them fail. Or an incompetent DRDO assembled these parts incorrectly?

Military lobby of ex servicemen always wished to import, they were aided by serving servicemen. Together they could create a situation in which equipment is misused and forced to fail.

Do not be surprised if that becomes the main reason of failure. The story is being repeated in LCA by the IAF.

We have retire without perks some Generals, some Marshals and most of the DRDO staff.

It was stated by DRDO tthat the reason they can not set up overhauling facilities for those parts was the low arjun mk1 orders given by IA. It will be exorbitantly costly to set up a full overhauling and local TOT production set up for just 24 arjun mk1s.

The reason for go ahead being with held for Ashok leyland-CVRDE MBT engine program is also the same. Low order numbers dont justify the cost!!!

The same reason that led to the closure of MRF track making facility for Arjun mk1s set up by MRF.The army stopped orders for Arjun mk1 after 124. And MRF closed down the factory for want of further orders. You can anyday expect another senior army general lamenting how DRDO can not even produce tacks for Arjun mk1s in india. And how this is leading to mothballing of tanks!!!

These are crooked games played by vested interests to continue never ending imports.

When russian airforce is buying a set of 64 mission computers , weapon release software and radar computers from HAL there is no reason that we can not produce arjun parts

 

[Khagesh]

In any case why should DRDO be doing the industrial engineering. It is not there job. And in any case DRDO labs actually do, do manufacturing too. How much more can anybody expect from them. The Indian researchers were at one point criticized for not documenting properly. They do that now. That should be enough.

And the point is with an institution where the higher ups do not care for those lower down the order and where the higher ups are suspected to be doing sabotage by their own Ministers, what is the point doing industrial engineering so a grand total of 124 units are ordered.

 

[aliyah]

india decided to go for new generation tank.....so i think its time to say bye to this thread n arjun both
feels bad after putting more that 150000cr rs we got nothing

 

[Hari Sud]

It was stated by DRDO tthat the reason they can not set up overhauling facilities for those parts was the low arjun mk1 orders given by IA. It will be exorbitantly costly to set up a full overhauling and local TOT production set up for just 24 arjun mk1s.

The reason for go ahead being with held for Ashok leyland-CVRDE MBT engine program is also the same. Low order numbers dont justify the cost!!!

The same reason that led to the closure of MRF track making facility for Arjun mk1s set up by MRF.The army stopped orders for Arjun mk1 after 124. And MRF closed down the factory for want of further orders. You can anyday expect another senior army general lamenting how DRDO can not even produce tacks for Arjun mk1s in india. And how this is leading to mothballing of tanks!!!

These are crooked games played by vested interests to continue never ending imports.

When russian airforce is buying a set of 64 mission computers , weapon release software and radar computers from HAL there is no reason that we can not produce arjun parts

Too bad to hear that, but it is highly unlikely that 2000 of Army's T- 72 will be replaced any time soon. The new Russian tank, now in news, has got high marks from the Russian interests, it has not been examined by outsiders. It has to go into battle and prove itself before any orders other than Russian Army be placed. That is ten years from now. Then again all the 2,000 will be replaced in a day, a week or a year. It's replacement will take ten years. Hence Arjun in sufficient numbers

india decided to go for new generation tank.....so i think its time to say bye to this thread n arjun both
feels bad after putting more that 150000cr rs we got nothing

is the right fit for next 20 years.

Can anybody identify the decision process within the army which resulted in not one but many other military hardware rejected by the Army in favour of imports. Are the army hierarchy gone so corrupt that sight of dollars make them cringe in favour of imports. It is happening again LCA project.

Is our PM Modi found the right Defence Minister to weed out the bad General's, Marshall's and Admirals. Not to miss the arms merchant who hold the sway in all Indian war material purchases.

 

[marrakesh]

China has already gone to Russia trains with armored vehicles, machine service and military with the task to win the international "Tank Biathlon - 2015".
Pakistan also claimed to participate.
Can wait Arjun?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

http://idrw.org/indian-army-chasing-pipe-dreams-forever/
.
for those who blames drdo..... Its army who is confused in requirement.

 

[Blood+]

Or an incompetent DRDO assembled these parts incorrectly?

And since when 'an incompetent' DRDO started assembling weapons may I ask to the highness??

 

[Hari Sud]

And since when 'an incompetent' DRDO started assembling weapons may I ask to the highness??

I said a lot more in two my posts above. You just focussed on the word "incompetent" which is sadly true. DRDO has to succeed somewhere or on something after thirty years of work, minor successes here and there excepted.