Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[Adioz]

You don't say.

Yeah, the HESH round, which has become pretty much useless against almost every type of battle field structures, static or mobile, there is!!Not much of an advantage if you ask me, especially so once you take all the disadvatages that come with the rifled barrels into consideration.

No one needs it any more anyway.So again, not much of a disadvantage.

True that, but I never said anythging in the contradictory.

And I never said anything about the quality of the so called Kanchan armour.And besides, the base armor of the T 90S isn't really the benchmark to weigh a certain armour type against!!

Best in the sense against BM 42 Mango and its equivalent from Israel, which are of mid 80's vintage and again, not really the benchmark to test a particular armor against!!Frankly speaking, we have absolutely zero idea as to how good (or bad) the armor would perform against more modern APFSDS ammo like you know which ones.

What do you suggest we do sir?

 

[Blood+]

What do you suggest we do sir?

Discarding the present rifled gun in favor of a smooth barrel one, preferably the Rheinmetall L/55, for starter would be good.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The rifled gun in Arjun is due to the insistence from the Army's side to which DRDO compiled. Even in the list of improvements which were handed over from the army after the comparitive trials with T-90 to DRDO to be incorporated in Arjun mk2 Smoothbore gun was never a requirement in spite of the fact the army operates smoothbore in T-90S. Nevertheless DRDO has gained sufficient knowhow by reverse engineering a 125 mm barrel to be used in India made T-90S because Russia failed to provide us with TOT on the gun despite the contract. Hence any decision by the army in favour of smoothbore can be quickly implemented.
Regarding the ERA, no it is not the Kontact ERA which the Russians use on T-90. It is a common mistake to assume it because of the wedge shape it renders to the turret front in the T-90 and Arjun mk2 in which 2 ERA panels is kept at 90 degree angle. The internal chemistry of the sandwitch explosives in ERA panels is a special formula developed in HEMRL, Pune (yes the same lab which produced the ICL-20 explosive, the most powerful non nuclear explosive) and has been tested successfully against HEAT and APFSDS rounds.

 

[Blood+]

The rifled gun in Arjun is due to the insistence from the Army's side to which DRDO compiled.

No one blamed the DRDO, at least I never did, so I'm seriously having a hard time to see why you posted this. I've always maintained that it was the Army's fault, that their GSQR was faulty or rather, should I say that by the time the Army top brass were done shifting their goalposts, the rifled guns had gone completely out of favor, in fact, they had become outdated long since!!But the army failed to take note of any of the radically new developments being worked upon for and implemented on the main battle tanks (and many other areas to be honest) across the globe and neither did the DRDO care to mention them to the Army or may be the scientists were themselves completely oblivious to those aforementioned changes as well, who knows; in which case, the DRDO guys would need to take part of the blame as well.

Even in the list of improvements which were handed over from the army after the comparitive trials with T-90 to DRDO to be incorporated in Arjun mk2 Smoothbore gun was never a requirement in spite of the fact the army operates smoothbore in T-90S.

Which I find extremely weird and an opportunity gone because of their shortsightedness.

Nevertheless DRDO has gained sufficient knowhow by reverse engineering a 125 mm barrel to be used in India made T-90S because Russia failed to provide us with TOT on the gun despite the contract. Hence any decision by the army in favour of smoothbore can be quickly implemented.

Yes but what kind of smooth barrel gun??You see my young friend, the one which had been reverse engineered by the ARDE, was actually the 2A46M main gun from the T 72M1 'Monkey model' export variant, guns which were pathetically under performing even by 80's standards!!You certainly wouldn't wanna put such a main gun in the Arjun, would you??I know I wouldn't, I would rather keep the current rifled one since at least that version can withstand a lot more chamber pressure than the Soviet monkey gun.

Regarding the ERA, no it is not the Kontact ERA which the Russians use on T-90. It is a common mistake to assume it because of the wedge shape it renders to the turret front in the T-90 and Arjun mk2 in which 2 ERA panels is kept at 90 degree angle.

Again, who said that??Why are you bombarding us with such irrelevant information??What I asked was, what was so advanced about this ERA panels developed by the DRDO??How is it any different to other legacy systems like the American one (which they used in their TUSK upgrade package onboard the M1 Abrams) or older Soviet ones??You wanna know what advanced is - it would be the Ukrainian Duplet ERA, which uses linear shaped charges instead of just a lump of explosives sandwiched between to steel plates and are far more effecting in defeating, or rather completely obliterating modern APFSDS rods!!Now that is a radically different approach.
Another example would be the Polish ERAWA, where they use a reinforced HHS (high hardness steel, stronger than regular RHA) plate as the front section of the tiles, which can be perforated by the small precursor charges used in tandem heat warheads, which means, they can not be defeated by most modern ATGMs.Granted, they won't be so effective against APFSDS ammo unlike the Duplet nor they are as radically different, but still it's a nice little convenient 'jugad' which gets the job done.

Now, I ask again, what is it that makes DRDO ERA so advanced, do they incorporate such modification catering for today's battlefield needs??

The internal chemistry of the sandwitch explosives in ERA panels is a special formula developed in HEMRL, Pune (yes the same lab which produced the ICL-20 explosive, the most powerful non nuclear explosive) and has been tested successfully against HEAT and APFSDS rounds.

No shit Sherlock!!That's what they are supposed to do, these are heavy ERA panels we are talking about, of course they will be somewhat effective against both types of anti armor warheads no matter what but to what degree is my concern, simply because we do not posses any modern APFSDS rounds to test our different armor types against!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Basically you and many wish for smoothbore, We may see it in FMBT concept ..

As of now no requirement given for smooth-bore for MK2 ..

No one blamed the DRDO, at least I never did, so I'm seriously having a hard time to see why you posted this. I've always maintained that it was the Army's fault, that their GSQR was faulty or rather, should I say that by the time the Army top brass were done shifting their goalposts, the rifled guns had gone completely out of favor, in fact, they had become outdated long since!!But the army failed to take note of the radically new developments being worked upon and implemented in terms on main battle tanks (and many other areas to be honest) and neither the DRDO cared to mention them to the Army or may be the scientists were themselves completely oblivious to those aforementioned changes as well, who knows; in which case, the DRDO guys would need to take part of the blame as well.


Which I find extremely weird and an opportunity gone because of their shortsightedness.

Yes but what kind of smooth barrel gun??You see my young friend, the one which had been reverse engineered by the ARDE, was actually the 2A46M main gun from the T 72M1 'Monkey model' export variant, guns which were pathetically under performing even by 80's standards!!You certainly wouldn't wanna put such a main gun in the Arjun, would you??I know I wouldn't, I would rather keep the current rifled one since at least that version can withstand a lot more chamber pressure than the Soviet monkey gun.

Again, who said that??Why are you bombarding us with such irrelevant information??What I asked was, what was so advanced about this ERA panels developed by the DRDO??How is it any different to other legacy systems like the American one (which they used in their TUSK upgrade package onboard the M1 Abrams) or older Soviet ones??You wanna know what advanced is - it would be the Ukrainian Duplet ERA, which uses linear shaped charges instead of just a lump of explosives sandwiched between to steel plates and are far more effecting in defeating, or rather completely obliterating modern APFSDS rods!!Now that is a radically different approach.
Another example would be the Polish ERAWA, where they use a reinforced HHS (high hardness steel, stronger than regular RHA) plate as the front section of the tiles, which can be perforated by the small precursor charges used in tandem heat warheads, which means, they can not be defeated by most modern ATGMs.Granted, they won't be so effective against APFSDS ammo unlike the Duplet nor they are as radically different, but still it's a nice little convenient 'jugad' which gets the job done.

Now, I ask again, what is it that makes DRDO ERA so advanced, do they incorporate such modification catering for today's battlefield needs??

No shit Sherlock!!That's what they are supposed to do, these are heavy ERA panels we are talking about, of course they will be somewhat effective against both types of anti armor warheads no matter what but to what degree is my concern, simply because we do not posses any modern APFSDS rounds to test our different armor types against!!

 

[Blood+]

Basically you and many wish for smoothbore, We may see it in FMBT concept ..

I sincerely hope so.

As of now no requirement given for smooth-bore for MK2 ..

Which is kinda weird that the Army didn't ask for it during the MkII development process, don't you think sir??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I believe it because of time frame, A new gun requires a lot of testing and proving & certification ..

Which is kinda weird that the Army didn't ask for it during the MkII development process, don't you think sir??

 

[Chinmoy]

I believe it because of time frame, A new gun requires a lot of testing and proving & certification ..

One main reason might be its accuracy at longer range in comparison to smooth bore gun.

 

[Blood+]

=========== Low Quality ============

 

[tharun]

I believe it because of time frame, A new gun requires a lot of testing and proving & certification ..

Absolutely correct.
They need to test the life of barrel with different rounds and different ranges.
After results again tweaks in metallurgy again testing.......................goes on until satisfied.
Otherwise we can use the merkava barrel which is same used on us and german tanks.

 

[Vinod DX9]

What is so 'advanced' about the ERA tiles used in Arjun MkII??How is it any better than Russian legacy systems like Kontakt V or the Polish ERAWA (or ERA from any other nation) ??Oh and about the fit and finish of the interior, less the better.

Well...nothing special. Russia supplied us downgraded ERA. So we decided to go with our own. Our current ERA II is believed to be better than even Kontakt K5 ...giving 350+ mm RHAe protection.

And why do we use Rifled Gun on Arjun?

Simply because we knew how to make it. We used 105 mm Rifled gun L7 , we knew what was it's strength, and weakness. We knew how to make that even better. When our Project MBT-80 started 105 mm L7(L7A3) was the most powerful tank main gun. So like British we too went by making it bigger.

We make what we need not "what must be special"

 

[Blood+]

One main reason might be its accuracy at longer range in comparison to smooth bore gun.

Ok, since evidently some salty kids of members of this forum can not take valid facts, I'll rephrase what I had said earlier.It's pure nonsense.Rifled guns, while firing fin stabilized ammo, do not provide any extra accuracy over their smooth barrel counterparts out to any distance - long or short!!And this is why you probably should never skip your classes in the school!!

 

[Blood+]

Well...nothing special. Russia supplied us downgraded ERA. So we decided to go with our own. Our current ERA II is believed to be better than even Kontakt K5 ...giving 350+ mm RHAe protection.

Ok, so it's not really advanced by any conceivable means, but whatever.

And why do we use Rifled Gun on Arjun?

Yeah, why??Humor me please, Mr. Adam Jensen!!

Simply because we knew how to make it.

That's not an excuse!!The Americans knew how to make them, the Russians knew how to make those and so did the Germans, the French, and every other god damn nations!!Didn't stop them from moving over or should I say graduating to the next step in the tank gun evolution!!So why should we be any different, especially so when the rifled guns provide no advantages over their smooth barrel counterparts but add a plethora of cons that come with them??!!

We used 105 mm Rifled gun L7 , we knew what was it's strength, and weakness.

It was the best tank gun in the world during its heyday, till the Soviets brought out their 2A20 115 mm gun with their T 62 MBTs and then the NATO nations followed suit post haste as they discovered the advantages of the new smooth bore guns over the rifled ones.But then again, we belong from a nation where people actually believe that we do not need to learn anything new since every answer to every question is already present inside the fuckking Vedas!!I can't say I'm surprised with this attitude to be honest.

We knew how to make that even better. When our Project MBT-80 started 105 mm L7(L7A3) was the most powerful tank main gun. So like British we too went by making it bigger.

Sorry for repeating myself but again, that's no excuse for sticking with something that is proven to be completely outdated.

We make what we need not "what must be special"

And there you shows your ignorance in plenty, Mr. Adam Jensen, you should stick to fighting your battle against that tyrannical Sarif Industries of yours and leave the tank stuff to others.

 

[Blood+]

They need to test the life of barrel with different rounds and different ranges.After results again tweaks in metallurgy again testing.......................goes on until satisfied.
Otherwise we can use the merkava barrel which is same used on us and german tanks.

Why reinvent the wheel when we could simply get a license for the Rheinmetall L/55 along with the Israeli M338 APFSDS (customized DM 63), produce them in house and use the expertise to build bigger, more powerful guns, may be in 140 mm caliber??

 

[Chinmoy]

Ok, since evidently some salty kids of members of this forum can not take valid facts, I'll rephrase what I had said earlier.It's pure nonsense.Rifled guns, while firing fin stabilized ammo, do not provide any extra accuracy over their smooth barrel counterparts out to any distance - long or short!!And this is why you probably should never skip your classes in the school!!

Well.................... You should have said this to this guy. Seems he is a novice in front of you knowledge.

This new main battle tank is armed with a fully-stabilized 120-mm rifled gun, which is loaded manually. A rifled gun of such caliber is only used on the British Challenger 2 MBT. This gun is more accurate at long range comparing with smoothbore guns.

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/arjun_mk2.htm

Moreover, seems like you skipped the primary class where it has been taught that rifled guns are more accurate over a distance then their smooth bore counterpart.

 

[Blood+]

Well.................... You should have said this to this guy. Seems he is a novice in front of you knowledge.



http://www.military-today.com/tanks/arjun_mk2.htm
Moreover, seems like you skipped the primary class where it has been taught that rifled guns are more accurate over a distance then their smooth bore counterpart.

See, this is why I hate having to discuss something with 5 year olds!!Really man, can't you even fuccking read??Boy, this is what I said - "Rifled guns, while firing fin stabilized ammo, do not provide any extra accuracy over their smooth barrel counterparts out to any distance - long or short!!" Read it, fuckking read it again, this time slowly!!I specifically talked about fin stabilized ammo, not your regular spin stabilized ammo what are used in small arms, auto cannons and artillery guns and as such!!Why do you think they would need to go thorugh all the troubles of adding fins on those ammo types if merely imparting some spin would be enough to stabilize those ammo types??!!Ever stopped to ask yourself this very simple question??No, you didn't.

 

[tharun]

Why reinvent the wheel when we could simply get a license for the Rheinmetall L/55 along with the Israeli M338 APFSDS (customized DM 63), produce them in house and use the expertise to build bigger, more powerful guns, may be in 140 mm caliber??

Probably they will never ever give them...because the gun life is approx 2600 full power rounds where as russian guns are 500-600 rounds.

 

[Blood+]

Probably they will never ever give them

Give what??

...because the gun life is approx 2600 full power rounds where as russian guns are 500-600 rounds.

No present generation tank gun has that kind of barrel life for APFSDS rounds.

 

[Chinmoy]

See, this is why I hate having to discuss something with 5 year olds!!Really man, can't you even fuccking read??Boy, this is what I said - "Rifled guns, while firing fin stabilized ammo, do not provide any extra accuracy over their smooth barrel counterparts out to any distance - long or short!!" Read it, fuckking read it again, this time slowly!!I specifically talked about fin stabilized ammo, not your regular spin stabilized ammo what are used in small arms, auto cannons and artillery guns and as such!!Why do you think they would need to go thorugh all the troubles of adding fins on those ammo types if merely imparting some spin would be enough to stabilize those ammo types??!!Ever stopped to ask yourself this very simple question??No, you didn't.

Now see where your prob lies. Do you think that APFSDS is the only round Arjun would be firing?

Read this line slowly and try to understand what is the logic.

 

[Blood+]

Now see where your prob lies. Do you think that APFSDS is the only round Arjun would be firing?

Read this line slowly and try to understand what is the logic.

Ok then, so now please tell me of one other ammo type (except the HESH which has become pretty much useless these days against any and all types of military structures) that rifled guns can fire which the smooth barrel ones can not.