AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

HariPrasad-1

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2016
Messages
9,624
Likes
21,100
Country flag
Yes with a major correction. not mki, but LCA mk2 MWF with CATS can easily handle any stealth treat from Pak
MKI is a missile magnet, it struggle to counter stealth jets, one of the major reason why IAF demanding MRFA




In an exercise Saab Gripen comprehensively beaten J 11 in BVR combat and J 11 could not score a single kill in 32 encounters. What is true for J11 is by and large true for MKI for BVR combat. In the time of US Vietnam war, BVRs were not very effective and hence the planes were designed to optimize for close combat. However, with the improvement in BVR and its increase in no escape zone, it has become increasingly important to optimize the plane for BVR as well and hence the parameters like RCM are getting more and more important. Flanker family is designed to dominate close combat and little attention is given on RCS etc. Any good 4+ generation plane will take the flankers out with before flankers can see those planes with its PESA radar. However, we have a huge fleet of Flanker which are vulnerable to good 4+ generation fighter. Fortunately, our enemies do not have any such plane. J 20 is a piece of junk and I do not consider it seriously. Fighting Falcons are a serious bird to be considered in our neighborhood but they are outdated and our diplomacy has worked very well to not let them get upgraded.

What is the solution?

No matter how hard you work, you can not hide flankers even if you apply best RAM paint and hide the engines with newer intake design, it is not possible to hide flanker from good AESA radar from a great distance. Something like Rafale will see it much before Flanker can see it and fire BVR on flanker . Because of very good TVCs, Flankers have much better BVR dodging capabilities with huge quantity of Chef and Flairs in its belly and super maneuverability but that will only be a defensive move.

We are currently, relatively tension free because of the Junk inventories of poor quality planes in our neighborhood but if something like EFT, Grippen or Rafale enters into fray, we shall be in serious trouble. We have many of our eggs in a single basket because of huge inventory of MKIs. The solution to issue is top class AESA which can detect 4+ generation plane from a greater distance, top class EW and most modern BVR. This will make MKIs relevant for BVR combat though it does not have any potential to match something like Rafale in BVR combat but definitely it will improve its performance.

So far as close combat and WVR is concern, flankers can defeat anything because of its superior maneuverability. WVR is not an issue at all but to reach to a distance upto WVR is the main issue which needs to be sorted out.

Tejas MK1 A has many limitations but undoubtedly, it will emerge as a dark horse for BVR combat with AESA and Astra Mk1 and MK2. Nothing in Chinese or Pakistani Inventory is good enough to deal with Tejas MK1 A to win BVR combat. Read bellow article which narrates the exercise between Gripen C which used AIMS against J 11 which got roasted in BVR Combat by poor score of Zero Kill out of 32 sorties in BVR against small Gripen C. Gripen E is far more capable and Rafale is far batter than Gripen. We need more Rafale or MWF in big quantity. MWF with 70/120 Kn class will be a real killer and our enemies will try to maintain safe distance.

 
Last edited:

johnj

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,776
Likes
2,672
you should watch the ADA chief interview I posted.
Your lack of knowledge doesn’t mean some body will feed you multiple media reports available online.
From the video, only new info is - ADA need 15000core to start stage1
About the
1695800370558.png

The parts is stealth material for AMCA, and its mentioned already in DRDO thread
In the case of LCA it use carbon composite material
 

johnj

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,776
Likes
2,672
In an exercise Saab Gripen comprehensively beaten J 11 in BVR combat and J 11 could not score a single kill in 32 encounters. What is true for J11 is by and large true for MKI for BVR combat. In the time of US Vietnam war, BVRs were not very effective and hence the planes were designed to optimize for close combat. However, with the improvement in BVR and its increase in no escape zone, it has become increasingly important to optimize the plane for BVR as well and hence the parameters like RCM are getting more and more important. Flanker family is designed to dominate close combat and little attention is given on RCS etc. Any good 4+ generation plane will take the flankers out with before flankers can see those planes with its PESA radar. However, we have a huge fleet of Flanker which are vulnerable to good 4+ generation fighter. Fortunately, our enemies do not have any such plane. J 20 is a piece of junk and I do not consider it seriously. Fighting Falcons are a serious bird to be considered in our neighborhood but they are outdated and our diplomacy has worked very well to not let them get upgraded.

What is the solution?

No matter how hard you work, you can not hide flankers even if you apply best RAM paint and hide the engines with newer intake design. Something like Rafale will see it much before Flanker can see it and fire BVR on flanker even before flanker can see Rafale. Because of very good TVCs, Flankers have much better BVR dodging capabilities with huge quantity of Chef and Flairs in its belly and super maneuverability but that will be only a defensive move.

We are currently,, relatively tension free because of the Junk inventories of poor quality planes in our neighborhood but if something like EFT, Grippen or Rafale enters into fray, we shall be in serious trouble. We have many of our eggs in a single basket because of huge inventory of MKIs. The solution to issue is top class AESA which can detect 4+ generation plane from a greater distance, Top class EW and most modern BVR. This will make MKIs relevant for BVR combat.

So far as close combat and WVR is concern, flankers can defeat anything because of its superior maneuverability. WVR is not an issue at all but to reach to a distance upto WVR is the main issue which need to sorted out.

Tejas MK1 A has many limitations but undoubtedly, it will emerge as a dark horse for BVR combat with AESA and Astra Mk1 and MK2. Nothing in Chinese or Pakistani Inventory is good enough to deal with Tejas MK1 A win BVR combat. Read bellow article which narrates the exercise between Gripen C which used AIMS against J 11 which got roasted in BVR Combat.

Thanks for the link
 

spacemarine2023

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2023
Messages
1,109
Likes
4,381
Country flag
From the video, only new info is - ADA need 15000core to start stage1
About the
View attachment 224043
The parts is stealth material for AMCA, and its mentioned already in DRDO thread
In the case of LCA it use carbon composite material
seems like you didnt watch the part where ADA boss is saying, the same companies are working on AMCA development who are currently involved in sourcing of thousands of parts in Tejas
 

mokoman

Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2020
Messages
6,332
Likes
34,335
Country flag
IMO ADA chief looks confident when he said in interview that prototype will roll out in 2027, This is one of the key strategic program of India I see Govt is backing this fully if IAF is still doubtful.

And regarding the induction with in a decade he explained the production partners are already involved from development stage which basically means the production phase jump will be much quicker when compared to earlier projects
:lehappy: roll out in 2027 , very hard to believe .
 

Starlight

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2021
Messages
145
Likes
294
Country flag
Hi,
IMO the AMCA needs TVC which gives super maneuverability for dog fighting. As for the flankers I Know they are getting upgraded from PESA to AESA radars, when the Airforce finds this as imminent requirements. The TEJAS also needs to have TVC. I belive after full TOT we can design our own TVC engine. That will be great as most of our pilots are really good with thrust vectoring in all scenarios. What do you think about this choice as this is very important for the IAF to continue its TVC fighting and tactical training for getting complete dominace in TVC doctrine in the future.
 

johnj

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,776
Likes
2,672
seems like you didnt watch the part where ADA boss is saying, the same companies are working on AMCA development who are currently involved in sourcing of thousands of parts in Tejas
Don't I already written such things.
In simple there is a lost of common element between LCA and AMCA
That is how things works, currently the private base/eco system works with HAL, but at the same time ADA also trying to work with them directly on LCA mk2 project, these things may contribute to creating a private sector assembly in future for AMCA.
Don't forget till date private sector contribution is for low level tech, for ex. tires, screws, materials etc but that's for 4th gen not 5th gen, most of the 5th gen tech remains in gov sector. Currently Boeing, Airbus etc buying thousands of parts for their aircrafts, gov org. only trying take this advantage
Also currently only around 60+ LCA [2001~2024] and most of its major tech is imported.
The Key point is how much money Private sector going to invest in R&D- follow Indian DRDO/private thread, you get a better idea about private R&D.
But the big QUESTION is- when MOD/CCS cleared money for AMCA prototype/SPV ?? - if you know the answer, then you can easily understand the reality.
 

SavageKing456

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
3,080
Likes
18,154
Country flag
From the video, only new info is - ADA need 15000core to start stage1
About the
View attachment 224043
The parts is stealth material for AMCA, and its mentioned already in DRDO thread
In the case of LCA it use carbon composite material
Actuators have been developed also
Amca is currently going through component level manufacturing
 
Last edited:

johnj

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
1,776
Likes
2,672
Actuators have been developed also
Totally true [like] but here you are talking about new gen tech [5th gen]
Amca is currently going through component level manufacturing
I considering waiting till first prototype/TD
Anyways. its understandable different gov R&D org is manufacturing or testing component for fighter jets [lca / tedbf / amca] and each year LCA attaining new capability
 

SavageKing456

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
3,080
Likes
18,154
Country flag
Totally true [like] but here you are talking about new gen tech [5th gen]

I considering waiting till first prototype/TD
Anyways. its understandable different gov R&D org is manufacturing or testing component for fighter jets [lca / tedbf / amca] and each year LCA attaining new capability
Yeah assembling and stuff will take time
 

DukeDoode

New Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
17
Country flag

Guys, here is a suggestion: Since Sweden has left Team tempest, why can't we invite Saab to partner us for development of AMCA?
  1. F-414 Engine is already common for both Tejas mk2 and Gripen-E. New Engine infrastructure investment can be eliminated for Sweden.
  2. Sweden has a timeline of 2031 to decide on Gripen c/d replacement platform. So SAAB has enough time to form a proper partnership and offer AMCA as replacement.
  3. SAAB has quite a lot of infrastructure for aviation development. They are no slouches in R&D as well as manufacture of aviation equipment. Instead of sending AMCA to France for intake testing and such, Swedish facilities can be used as part of Sweden's development work share.
  4. Sweden does not have its own FBW technology. It would be a good opportunity to built upon our indigenous FBW and make it export competitive.
  5. SAAB can work on integrating foreign weapons like MBDA and AMRAAMs. This could be part of their work share. Since Sweden will join NATO, they will need the aircraft to be compatible with NATO weapons. The aircraft will automatically become NATO compatible for future export prospects.
  6. Regarding project management, SAAB and DRDO/HAL proposing a time-line for development would make for a more compelling case compared to just HAL/DRDO alone.
  7. SAAB built a very cost effective platform the Gripen with very quick turnaround times. If that team works with HAL, the manufacturing and maintenance practices will be very economical as well as practical.
  8. The loyal wingman drone can be developed individually if needed or the Swedish AMCA version can have open architecture to integrate with any Europeon drone. Thus drone development cost can be eliminated to keep the program economical.
I see SAAB as a natural partner for India to develop AMCA especially since they don't have any mature comparable programs and they can't develop one on their own without blowing the bank. South Korea might have been a partner if not for the fact that they are also the competition for both India's AMCA and sweden's Gripen-E.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top