AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[AnantS]

SBC means Single Board Computers.
Their is a big difference between shall be/will be and are being manufactured locally.
For any manufacturing activity (especially defense manufacturing) shall be/will be are not regarded as indigenous replacements but rather pipe dreams unless to have something to show for.
Actuators regarding engines are being imported.
Cockpit display are assembled in India not manufactured. Their is a difference in the statement.
LRUs are still being imported and several of these so called locally manufactured LRU is assembly job from knock-down kits.
Manufactured locally doesn't translates indigenous system. It mainly means manufactured in India in collaboration with foreign partner.
We have not done the whole cycle of R&D, testing, certification, etc. for these LRUs.
Locally company have partnered with foreign partner and what they basically do is assemble from know-down kits.

People only think about engine, ejection seat, radome, IFR probe as imported items but if you drill down we import a lot of sub-systems.

We still have a long way to go before we are self-reliant like US or PRC.

This is one of the main reason why IAF chief asked for JV with foreign partners. Don't know why lot of people got hyper on that statement.

Sure sourcing Locally vs Manufacturing via JV has lot of difference. The former gives independence, the latter gives flexibility of keeping up with latest technology. And if we dig minutely into any LRU or any other component (especially electronic or electromechanical) , there shall be many imported sub components. The issue is not imported components - the issue is establishing a resilient supply chain of required components in case if far reaching sanctions like 98 or one like in Russia.
occurs.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

SBC means Single Board Computers.
Their is a big difference between shall be/will be and are being manufactured locally.

What do you even mean by this. Do we have any industrial base whatsoever in ELECTRONICS Industries ???

Forget SBC we just started Assembling Mobile Phones, we have very few Manufacturers to even Build PCBs.

You are aiming for Moon, no country manufactures everything, every industrial product have tons of imported components, this is what is called "Global Supply Chain".

If every thing is to be developed "Indigenously" the cost, time and resources are simply prohibitive.

"Its Industrial Base and Economy Stupid".

These capabilities are coming to India with Electronics PLI.

For any manufacturing activity (especially defense manufacturing) shall be/will be are not regarded as indigenous replacements but rather pipe dreams unless to have something to show for.

"Defence Manufacturing" does not exists in some stand alone Universe, Separated from Commercial Technology Manufacturing Industries.

Please establish this point - Stand Alone Defence Manufacturing Separate from Commercial Manufacturing.

Actuators regarding engines are being imported.

What actuators you want India to Produce specifically for 404, Al-31, Honeywell.

Cockpit display are assembled in India not manufactured. Their is a difference in the statement.

Again same misplaced & displaced argument.

How many LCD Manufacturing plants and Foundries are there in India, coupled with Semiconductor Foundries in India.

You are shaming Defence Manufacturing Capabilities in disguise of INDUSTRIAL CAPABILITIES which atmost 2 or 3 Countries in the world possess.

Again - These capabilities are coming to India with Electronics PLI.

LRUs are still being imported and several of these so called locally manufactured LRU is assembly job from knock-down kits.

Again same misplaced & displaced argument.

Its Global Supply Chain Stupid.

Please do inform us what LRUs dont have Electronic Components.

Kindly do Inform what LRUs which you want 100% Indigenisation.

Manufactured locally doesn't translates indigenous system. It mainly means manufactured in India in collaboration with foreign partner.

You want to reinvent Wheel again when the same is Cheaply Available in the Market ??

Do fathom, it is something different, to develop & design a system with strict specification and performance with adding some readily available components, then importing whole SUBSYSTEM.

We have not done the whole cycle of R&D, testing, certification, etc. for these LRUs.
Locally company have partnered with foreign partner and what they basically do is assemble from know-down kits.

Correct NO Country in the world can develop or manufacture everything INHOUSE.

Either you dont understand what is the meaning of PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT or just shaming Indian Capability in the garb of INDIGENISATION.

People only think about engine, ejection seat, radome, IFR probe as imported items but if you drill down we import a lot of sub-systems.
We still have a long way to go before we are self-reliant like US or PRC.
This is one of the main reason why IAF chief asked for JV with foreign partners. Don't know why lot of people got hyper on that statement.

All the above is Correct.

But we dont need to do EVERYTHING INDIGENIOUSLY at this stage because our Industrial Base and Economy dont permit it.

We dont have MONEY PURSE of usa or china or the INDUSTRIAL BASE.

We do have capability to Design and Manufacture MOST OF THE SUBSYSTEMS be it MOST OF THE LRUs, RADOME, Ejection Seats, IFR System. With SOME FOREIGN COMPONENTS and WITH SOME TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE - because it is not feasible to REINVENT THE WHEEL.

Its ECONOMY & INDUSTRIAL BASE stupid.

But mark my words we will be reaching there very-very soon IN 2030s WITH ECONOMY 10+ TRILLION & EXPANDING MANUFACTURING BASE.

Till then you can weep and cry like what our IAF (IMPORTED ARMED FORCES) does.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

This is one of the main reason why IAF chief asked for JV with foreign partners. Don't know why lot of people got hyper on that statement.

Please do ask Air Chief:

What TECHNOLOGY WHICH INDIA CANNOT DEVELOP will come with JV FOREIGN PARTNERS????

Which THECHNICAL KNOW-HOW & KNOW-WHY ""for CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY" they are READY TO PROVIDE-SELL & SHARE WITH INDIA ????


Please do provide your GYAN on this matter, to us who are Ignorant Fools.

 

[AnantS]

^ Shaant Gadadhari Bheem Shaant! Dont use caps too much - it makes uneasy to read.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

What do you even mean by this. Do we have any industrial base whatsoever in ELECTRONICS Industries ???

Forget SBC we just started Assembling Mobile Phones, we have very few Manufacturers to even Build PCBs.

You are aiming for Moon, no country manufactures everything, every industrial product have tons of imported components, this is what is called "Global Supply Chain".

If every thing is to be developed "Indigenously" the cost, time and resources are simply prohibitive.

"Its Industrial Base and Economy Stupid".

These capabilities are coming to India with Electronics PLI.




"Defence Manufacturing" does not exists in some stand alone Universe, Separated from Commercial Technology Manufacturing Industries.

Please establish this point - Stand Alone Defence Manufacturing Separate from Commercial Manufacturing.



What actuators you want India to Produce specifically for 404, Al-31, Honeywell.



Again same misplaced & displaced argument.

How many LCD Manufacturing plants and Foundries are there in India, coupled with Semiconductor Foundries in India.

You are shaming Defence Manufacturing Capabilities in disguise of INDUSTRIAL CAPABILITIES which atmost 2 or 3 Countries in the world possess.

Again - These capabilities are coming to India with Electronics PLI.



Again same misplaced & displaced argument.

Its Global Supply Chain Stupid.

Please do inform us what LRUs dont have Electronic Components.

Kindly do Inform what LRUs which you want 100% Indigenisation.



You want to reinvent Wheel again when the same is Cheaply Available in the Market ??

Do fathom, it is something different, to develop & design a system with strict specification and performance with adding some readily available components, then importing whole SUBSYSTEM.



Correct NO Country in the world can develop or manufacture everything INHOUSE.

Either you dont understand what is the meaning of PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT or just shaming Indian Capability in the garb of INDIGENISATION.



All the above is Correct.

But we dont need to do EVERYTHING INDIGENIOUSLY at this stage because our Industrial Base and Economy dont permit it.

We dont have MONEY PURSE of usa or china or the INDUSTRIAL BASE.

We do have capability to Design and Manufacture MOST OF THE SUBSYSTEMS be it MOST OF THE LRUs, RADOME, Ejection Seats, IFR System. With SOME FOREIGN COMPONENTS and WITH SOME TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE - because it is not feasible to REINVENT THE WHEEL.

Its ECONOMY & INDUSTRIAL BASE stupid.

But mark my words we will be reaching there very-very soon IN 2030s WITH ECONOMY 10+ TRILLION & EXPANDING MANUFACTURING BASE.

Till then you can weep and cry like what our IAF (IMPORTED ARMED FORCES) does.

Buddy you need to dial down on your rhetoric and stop yelling.
Typing in bold and all caps does make you right it just shows you are an immature idiot who can't have civilized discussion.
At age of 29 you needs to display iota of maturity.

Before you start yelling, read the discussion on which I have replied on.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

Buddy you need to dial down on your rhetoric and stop yelling.
Typing in bold and all caps does make you right it just shows you are an immature idiot who can't have civilized discussion.
At age of 29 you needs to display iota of maturity.

Before you start yelling, read the discussion on which I have replied on.

Is this all you have in reply???


Thank you.

Do come up with proper logical counter arguments.

Just pointed out what your post was nothing more then pile of notions and bickring.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Is this all you have in reply???


Thank you.

Do come up with proper logical counter arguments.

Just pointed out what your post was nothing more then pile of notions and bickring.

That is the reply you deserve.
Re-post properly then we shall have a cordial discussion.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

That is the reply you deserve.
Re-post properly then we shall have a cordial discussion.

It shows your lack of argument, and agenda busted.

Honorable Member.

I am not here to argue or change any body's perceptions.

Just busting the propaganda with false notion which was pushed with preconceived notions.


I was pointing facilities in below mentioned post:

SBC means Single Board Computers.
Their is a big difference between shall be/will be and are being manufactured locally.
For any manufacturing activity (especially defense manufacturing) shall be/will be are not regarded as indigenous replacements but rather pipe dreams unless to have something to show for.
Actuators regarding engines are being imported.
Cockpit display are assembled in India not manufactured. Their is a difference in the statement.
LRUs are still being imported and several of these so called locally manufactured LRU is assembly job from knock-down kits.
Manufactured locally doesn't translates indigenous system. It mainly means manufactured in India in collaboration with foreign partner.
We have not done the whole cycle of R&D, testing, certification, etc. for these LRUs.
Locally company have partnered with foreign partner and what they basically do is assemble from know-down kits.

People only think about engine, ejection seat, radome, IFR probe as imported items but if you drill down we import a lot of sub-systems.

We still have a long way to go before we are self-reliant like US or PRC.

This is one of the main reason why IAF chief asked for JV with foreign partners. Don't know why lot of people got hyper on that statement.

 

[Suryavanshi]

That is the reply you deserve.
Re-post properly then we shall have a cordial discussion.

Arey reply Kar de na bhai, Tera kya jata he?
Is all caps making you blind?
Ignore it and do make your argument.
Maybe he is retarded but certainly rest of us can appreciate your argument?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Arey reply Kar de na bhai, Tera kya jata he?
Is all caps making you blind?
Ignore it and do make your argument.
Maybe he is retarded but certainly rest of us can appreciate your argument?

What do you even mean by this. Do we have any industrial base whatsoever in ELECTRONICS Industries ???

Forget SBC we just started Assembling Mobile Phones, we have very few Manufacturers to even Build PCBs.

You are aiming for Moon, no country manufactures everything, every industrial product have tons of imported components, this is what is called "Global Supply Chain".

If every thing is to be developed "Indigenously" the cost, time and resources are simply prohibitive.

"Its Industrial Base and Economy Stupid".

These capabilities are coming to India with Electronics PLI.

From what I read I can say you are not a very knowledgeable person when it comes to electronics R&D and manufacturing.
We have capabilities to manufacture PCB from 2-32 layers for decades. From early 2000s we had such capabilities.
We have capabilities to assemble and Test PCBs as small as 0201 or 0.1mm BGA package for decades.
We had robust assembly capabilities from late 2000s - early 2010s.
We have capabilities to develop, test and commission complex PCBs from 1990s. We have done this on several instances.
We may not be able to assemble 10 million devices per year but we have capabilities to fulfill our defense requirement.
Please avoid peddling BS in things you have no idea about. You are making complete fool of yourself.

"Defence Manufacturing" does not exists in some stand alone Universe, Separated from Commercial Technology Manufacturing Industries.

Please establish this point - Stand Alone Defence Manufacturing Separate from Commercial Manufacturing.

And the point you are making is ....?

What actuators you want India to Produce specifically for 404, Al-31, Honeywell.

Do you even have a point or are you getting emotional and posting?

Again same misplaced & displaced argument.

How many LCD Manufacturing plants and Foundries are there in India, coupled with Semiconductor Foundries in India.

You are shaming Defence Manufacturing Capabilities in disguise of INDUSTRIAL CAPABILITIES which atmost 2 or 3 Countries in the world possess.

Again - These capabilities are coming to India with Electronics PLI.

Another ill-informed and misguided claim.
Read about Electronics PLI first before posting.
We already have 2 semiconductor foundries and have active collaboration with Israeli and US based
companies.
Did you even read the original discussion or just got emotional and started behaving like a retard.
At the end of day we have to import sub-assemblies. This does not mean we have achieved self-sufficiency. That is all I said.
Don't get your panties in a bunch, just read the original discussion!!!

Again same misplaced & displaced argument.

Its Global Supply Chain Stupid.

Please do inform us what LRUs dont have Electronic Components.

Kindly do Inform what LRUs which you want 100% Indigenisation.



You want to reinvent Wheel again when the same is Cheaply Available in the Market ??

Do fathom, it is something different, to develop & design a system with strict specification and performance with adding some readily available components, then importing whole SUBSYSTEM.



Correct NO Country in the world can develop or manufacture everything INHOUSE.

Either you dont understand what is the meaning of PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT or just shaming Indian Capability in the garb of INDIGENISATION.



All the above is Correct.

But we dont need to do EVERYTHING INDIGENIOUSLY at this stage because our Industrial Base and Economy dont permit it.

We dont have MONEY PURSE of usa or china or the INDUSTRIAL BASE.

We do have capability to Design and Manufacture MOST OF THE SUBSYSTEMS be it MOST OF THE LRUs, RADOME, Ejection Seats, IFR System. With SOME FOREIGN COMPONENTS and WITH SOME TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE - because it is not feasible to REINVENT THE WHEEL.

Its ECONOMY & INDUSTRIAL BASE stupid.

But mark my words we will be reaching there very-very soon IN 2030s WITH ECONOMY 10+ TRILLION & EXPANDING MANUFACTURING BASE.

Till then you can weep and cry like what our IAF (IMPORTED ARMED FORCES) does.

Do you even have a point, because I keep on reading the same BS again and again in loop.

Read the original discussion before posting.

@Ugra Bhairav you are exactly what is termed as a barrack-room lawyer, a person who give authoritative-sounding opinions on subjects in which he is not qualified or has no understanding-of.

Stop pretending to be a subject matter expert when you lack basic knowledge. People like you read and/or listen news (that also incompletely) and try to pretend a subject matter expert getting all emotional and yelling on others.

A quote for you

Finally Stop Pretending to be an expert in things you have zero knowledge about.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

From what I read I can say you are not a very knowledgeable person when it comes to electronics R&D and manufacturing.
We have capabilities to manufacture PCB from 2-32 layers for decades. From early 2000s we had such capabilities.
We have capabilities to assemble and Test PCBs as small as 0201 or 0.1mm BGA package for decades.
We had robust assembly capabilities from late 2000s - early 2010s.
We have capabilities to develop, test and commission complex PCBs from 1990s. We have done this on several instances.

We may not be able to assemble 10 million devices per year but we have capabilities to fulfill our defense requirement.
Please avoid peddling BS in things you have no idea about. You are making complete fool of yourself.

And the point you are making is ....?

Do you even have a point or are you getting emotional and posting?

Good now we are talking

Dont understand why you go in instant bickering mode

Do you understand "phrase" "Very Few"

Forget SBC we just started Assembling Mobile Phones, we have very few Manufacturers to even Build PCBs.

Another ill-informed and misguided claim.
Read about Electronics PLI first before posting.
We already have 2 semiconductor foundries and have active collaboration with Israeli and US based
companies.

You want to produce CPU Level Chips on 150nm & 180nm on these Fabrication Facilities

Did you even read the original discussion or just got emotional and started behaving like a retard.
At the end of day we have to import sub-assemblies. This does not mean we have achieved self-sufficiency. That is all I said.
Don't get your panties in a bunch, just read the original discussion!!!
Do you even have a point, because I keep on reading the same BS again and again in loop.
Read the original discussion before posting.

What is your point. What does this even means ? Who said below:

SBC means Single Board Computers.
Their is a big difference between shall be/will be and are being manufactured locally.
For any manufacturing activity (especially defense manufacturing) shall be/will be are not regarded as indigenous replacements but rather pipe dreams unless to have something to show for.

You not even fathom "Local Manufacturing" :

LRUs are still being imported and several of these so called locally manufactured LRU is assembly job from knock-down kits.
Manufactured locally doesn't translates indigenous system. It mainly means manufactured in India in collaboration with foreign partner.

Now who had twisted the argument and now again twisting it further ?


Do you even understand what CPUs are required today ????

Even These gone obsolete :

@Ugra Bhairav you are exactly what is termed as a barrack-room lawyer, a person who give authoritative-sounding opinions on subjects in which he is not qualified or has no understanding-of.

Stop pretending to be a subject matter expert when you lack basic knowledge. People like you read and/or listen news (that also incompletely) and try to pretend a subject matter expert getting all emotional and yelling on others.

A quote for you
View attachment 183991

Finally Stop Pretending to be an expert in things you have zero knowledge about.

Hiding your sorry ass with off topic quotes dont makes you intelligent, it shows your desperation, lack of argument and illiteracy towards the topic.

You dont understand about the subject which you are posting.

I busted your agenda of "Everything Indian is Substandard" and "R&D in India is BS".


Do even need to reply a grumpy illiterate?????


Good Bye.

 

[Super Flanker]

Ghatak ,what else?, both these projects are tied together

In near future when AMCA & GHATAK enter service, I want to see Both of them fly together, GHATAK should/would act a loyal wingman for AMCA, CATS hunter can do the same too. I want to see AMCA & Ghatak "together" similar to like how they have done with Su-57 & S-70.

Like this :

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

In near future when AMCA & GHATAK enter service, I want to see Both of them fly together, GHATAK should act a loyal wingman for AMCA, CATS hunter can do the same too. I want to see AMCA & Ghatak "together" similar to like how they have done with Su-57 & S-70.

Like this :

View attachment 184014

Isn't ghatak a lil big to be a loyal wingman? Maybe its mini version we are using as tested that can do

 

[Super Flanker]

Isn't ghatak a lil big to be a loyal wingman? Maybe its mini version we are using as tested that can do

I don't think size has anything to do with being or not being a wingman. Look at the example of Su-57 and S-70. S-70 is meant to act as a loyal wingman for the Su-57. See how large S-70 is in comparison to Su-57, S-70 is a very large UAV, it has a larger wingspan than Su-57 but has a smaller length so S-70 is very big as I said before.

In my opinion, the bigger the UAV Wingman, the better it will be because a larger size UAV will have more range & endurance due to being able to carry a lot more fuel, more payload capacity and ability to carry better weopons and fire them off from greater standoff ranges, you won't see the same from smaller sized wingman. In short, the BIGGER, the BETTER.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

I don't think size has anything to do with being or not being a wingman. Look at the example of Su-57 and S-70. S-70 is meant to act as a loyal wingman for the Su-57. See how large S-70 is in comparison to Su-57, S-70 is a very large UAV, it has a larger wingspan than Su-57 but has a smaller length so S-70 is very big as I said before.

In my opinion, the bigger the UAV Wingman, the better it will be because a larger size UAV will have more range & endurance due to being able to carry a lot more fuel, more payload capacity and ability to carry better weopons and fire them off from greater standoff ranges, you won't see the same from smaller sized wingman. In short, the BIGGER, the BETTER.

i see is there any timeline for ghatak set? Can we expect it before 2030?

 

[Super Flanker]

i see is there any timeline for ghatak set? Can we expect it before 2030?

I don't know anything about the timeline for GHATAK but i think so that it will come at about the same time planes like AMCA, TEDBF etc will roll out. (I.e late 2020s/early 2030s)

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

I don't know anything about the timeline for GHATAK but i think so that it will come at about the same time planes like AMCA, TEDBF etc will roll out. (I.e late 2020s/early 2030s)

At this rate 2030 seems to be most important year for us

 

[Super Flanker]

At this rate 2030 seems to be most important year for us

I would say that this decade (that is 2020s) and the next upcoming decade (that is the 2030s) are going to be very important years for our defence industry complex.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Good now we are talking

Dont understand why you go in instant bickering mode

Do you understand "phrase" "Very Few"

Another ill-informed claim by you.
India has a lot of PCB manufacturers and assembles.
If you had done a little research you would have stopped posting your BS and lies.

You want to produce CPU Level Chips on 150nm & 180nm on these Fabrication Facilities

View attachment 184008

View attachment 184007

This shows the degree to which you pretending to be a expert on semiconductors and electronics.

One doesn't need cutting edge process node for every semiconductor IC (including CPUs). It depends on your technical capabilities, use case and requirement but gain you would know this if you had worked in semiconductor and electronics.
All your knowledge comes from reading from websites and then pretend to be subject matter expert.

You clearly missed the 65nm foundries that DRDO and ISRO commissioned with help of friendly country's help for their in-house requirement. But gain this information is not available in public domain hence you won't be able to read or post it to masquerade as expert in this forum.

What is your point. What does this even means ? Who said below:




You not even fathom "Local Manufacturing" :



Now who had twisted the argument and now again twisting it further ?

Do you even understand what CPUs are required today ????

Do you understand the CPUs requirement in aerospace and defense sector or have you started conjugating fantasies in your mind?
First look at the processor we use in our aerospace and defense programs then come here to rant about it.

Even These gone obsolete :

View attachment 184009




Hiding your sorry ass with off topic quotes dont makes you intelligent, it shows your desperation, lack of argument and illiteracy towards the topic.

You dont understand about the subject which you are posting.

At least you should have googled i960MX before posting. You are countering your own writhing.
Do some research before posting. Very poor performance on your end.

I busted your agenda of "Everything Indian is Substandard" and "R&D in India is BS".


Do even need to reply a grumpy illiterate?????


Good Bye.

Showing yourself as a C****a and lair you are.
Nowhere had I said Everything Indian is Substandard or R&D in India is BS. This are all the lies you made up.
Just because you don't have any valid points to counter you have started conjugating lies.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

I would say that this decade (that is 2020s) and the next upcoming decade (that is the 2030s) are going to be very important years for our defence industry complex.

Yepp hopefully while this period we get rid of curroption and lobbying too