AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Rajaraja Chola]

Design integration and validation is being done by ADA. Once approved and certified by ADA these changes will be implemented by HAL on actual aircraft. The project is not completed by ADA perspective.
I have confirmed this on ground. All design work w.r.t. to Tejas comes under the purview of ADA.

Yes, HAL has designed aircraft in past but a 4th generation aircraft is all together different ball game.
Another thing HAL doesn't own the source code for mission computer nor the simulation models to enable it to successfully integrate third party LRUs.

There is no need for HAL to design anything. Most of the stuffs have already been developed. Radars, Displays, EW suite etc. All HAL needs to do is integrate. For integration, engineers from BEL, DRDO labs, ADA will assist HAL if and when necessary.

Second, after a project is done and transferred over to an manufacturer, the developer project is done. The source code will be handled by HAL engineers from now on. The end user IAF can't be running over to ADA for very very minor changes. HAL will be requested to handle that. Only if there is a major bug in the source code, will ADA come in. At the end of the day, IAF has an agreement with HAL and not ADA.

Who do you think is developing and integrating CATs warrior into Tejas? Who is developing SPORT model? And if Malaysia request an modification or integration, it's HAL it's supposed to do those changes. HAL can't send ADA engineers. At some point of time, all ownership will be transferred. We call it sign off. Means end of development and handing over. Mk1A is done from HAL money and it's their project.

ADA already has much projects in it's plate with it's development timeline either too slow or non existent funding. There is Mk2, Amca, tedbf already. Along with UCAV programmes.

 

[IndianHawk]

While we cope and dream when things go the right away, some shit happens we end up achieving bare 40-50% of original target. The political orientation of US doesn't look much friendly for past 2-3 years. So unless a joint venture with Safran produces a successful engine and expertise for India, aerospaxe program is going to be ruined for 1-2 decades more. Delays of few to 7-8 years are inevitable anyway when R&D is there. It's better not to hope that much. Before acquiring mass production ability, we will be messing around to produce something fully compliant to requirements, thing that would cause delays.

While r&d issues are pertinent for AMCA mk2 . For AMCA mk1 engine issue is sorted for now with off the shelf f414. If new engine is delayed for AMCA mk2 we may continue with more AMCA mk1 .

There is also a path for f414 epe engine with 116 kn thrust which india might have to find of Safran deal doesn't happen but atleast we will have a engine for AMCA mk2.

Anyway Safran deal hinges upon money . If we let funds flow it's well within their capabilities to deliver 110-120 kn engine with minimal delays.

 

[Chinmoy]

Shouldnt it affect RCS ?
Cant this be made retractable ?

Same question was asked by someone in the same thread.

Yes it would effect the RCS from rear side. But the IR signature from rear would be higher then the RCS. So its not a big deal.

 

[tribendra bisoi..]

SoKo's KF-21 fighter aircraft has successfully completed its first flight.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

SoKo's KF-21 fighter aircraft has successfully completed its first flight.

Inb4 IAF launches Fifth Generation Fighter MRCA and select KF 21

 

[NutCracker]

Inb4 IAF launches Fifth Generation Fighter MRCA and select KF 21

Only if that was actually 5th gen

 

[ShukantC]

Rather than going for the simpler DSI design of the AMCA the KF 21 has the more complex ramp intake design and you can clearly make out the Lockheed Martin influence basically it is the baby raptor....

 

[NutCracker]

Rather than going for the simpler DSI design of the AMCA the KF 21 has the more complex ramp intake design and you can clearly make out the Lockheed Martin influence basically it is the baby raptor....

This definitely has came from LM repository..
Probably a reject / prototype , which was later on upscaled and modified to have internal weapons bay.

 

[Alfalfa]

This definitely has came from LM repository..
Probably a reject / prototype , which was later on upscaled and modified to have internal weapons bay.

Except that it doesnt have an internal weapons bay right

 

[tsunami]

What is the benefit of this weapon bay design? It's not stealth for sure, how it is even better then other 4.5 gen fighters out there?

 

[radion]

What is the benefit of this weapon bay design? It's not stealth for sure, how it is even better then other 4.5 gen fighters out there?

Benefit is less complex and less expensive to maintain.You can also say the current model acts as a technology demonstrator before they put a bay in. It's not as stealthy as 5th gen but it's definitely more stealthy than traditional 4.5th gen. Afterall the traditional 4.5th gen has to carry weapons in it's wing pylon whereas kfx can do as such in the places embedded into its body and not its wings.

 

[MonaLazy]

What is the benefit of this weapon bay design? It's not stealth for sure, how it is even better then other 4.5 gen fighters out there?

It's an experimental plane- and smaller than F-22 (~17m vs ~19m length). They are trying out semi-recessed weapons bays- will do RCS measurements on the current configuration and see if it is worth keeping. The benefit of pushing missiles out like this is additional fuel tank which can improve range. If it does not work out they can always go for full internal weapons bays.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

What is the benefit of this weapon bay design? It's not stealth for sure, how it is even better then other 4.5 gen fighters out there?

Main two reason for this weapon hard-point is to save on cost (both developmental and manufacturing) and save on developmental time.

 

[radion]

Further looking into KFX and extrapolating the data available there into our program.
Feb 2019 - was the ceremony for producing the 1st bulkhead of KFX
April 2021 - was the rollout of the 1st prototype
Now, looking at amca.
July 2022 - was the ceremony for producing the 1st bulkhead of AMCA.
Now, logic dictates 1st prototype rollout will be Sept 2024.

But according to theweek interview, 2026 is the first prototype rollout. Keep in mind this was not in quotes which possibly implies that this may be the author's opinion?(Someone catch him and get it clarified). Moving forward we know that an 'ir sensor for airborne applications' will be delivered by sep 2022.If we assume it belongs to amca then it means certain subsystem are still being tested and verified so 2026 may be the set date for proto rollout.
Finally for the last bad bit , if first flight happens in 2028 and at minimum it takes 8 more years of testing then 2036+ is when it will get introduced.

At best case scenario if 2024 is the rollout,2025 is the first flight then a minimum of 8 years of testing will take us to 2033 for induction.
Funny part is amca mark 1 will get 2 squadron worth of orders which mean just 36-50 aircafts

 

[radion]

Bruh...i thought my take was pessimistic.

A top HAL officer, on condition of anonymity, said, “Once the Cabinet sanction for AMCA comes in, the first prototype will be out in six to seven years. We need to sync in the money for the development.”

5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: Talks with international engine manufacturers at nascent stage

Final call on the partner will be taken by the Defence Ministry after weighing the offers put forward by engine manufacturers regarding Transfer of Technology and development costs

indianexpress.com

If CCS sanction in 2022, prototype rollout in 2028-2029.Induction after 2036+ seems likely now. Seems fair considering we havent even signed a contract for any engine yet.
It will take 4 years for engine to arrive after contract signing as i said here.Keep in mind koreans license produce so it should be <4yrs for a direct import.

 

[Shuturmurg]

Bruh...i thought my take was pessimistic.

5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: Talks with international engine manufacturers at nascent stage

Final call on the partner will be taken by the Defence Ministry after weighing the offers put forward by engine manufacturers regarding Transfer of Technology and development costs

indianexpress.com

If CCS sanction in 2022, prototype rollout in 2028-2029. Seems fair considering we havent even signed a contract for any engine yet.
It will take 4 years for engine to arrive after contract signing as i said here.Keep in mind koreans license produced so it should be <4yrs.

Our airforce is not inducting anything other than tejas mk1a fornext 10 years it seems.

 

[vishnugupt]

Exactly
Even I don't understand how people say that amca will be built by 2024, test flight by 2025 and induction by 2030
Iaf chief has spread a good and nice jumla committing on something that is well 15 years away thus providing wonderful time for endless import
Ccs won't sanction money this year it seems so time line even stretch to 2040s
God knows

GE 414 engines ( around 6-8 ) are already in India. I think this news is from last year.

Deal for 99 GE 404 engine already signed and delivery might have started or will start soon.

 

[johnj]

GE 414 engines ( around 6-8 ) are already in India. I think this news is from last year.

Deal for 99 GE 404 engine already signed and delivery might have started or will start soon.

Already started, next step local production with HAL.
But these engines are meant for single engine jet.
AMCA & tedbf going to use same engine, ones like in sh block 3.

 

[MonaLazy]

Spoiler: src

US Senate moving amendment to direct US Pentagon to boost cooperation with India on 5th gen fighters, ISR, cyber warfare and 5G comms etc.

What could this 5th gen fighter cooperation be about? Am sure it is not unsolicited given the high tech it involves and the push would have come from India.

Also this-

Spoiler: src

Aircraft engine maker Pratt & Whitney will set up an engineering centre in Bangalore. To commence operations in January 2023.
First in Asia.

US appears to have pulled out all stops to "help" us. What's the catch?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Spoiler: src

US Senate moving amendment to direct US Pentagon to boost cooperation with India on 5th gen fighters, ISR, cyber warfare and 5G comms etc.

What could this 5th gen fighter cooperation be about? Am sure it is not unsolicited given the high tech it involves and the push would have come from India.

Engine,
Image Sensor,
Advanced Semiconductor

US appears to have pulled out all stops to "help" us. What's the catch?

Sir, one correction. It is not help. Its a business transaction. We will be paying them $$$ for their co-operation.
They will not do it for free of cost nor we want it in free of cost.