AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Sorry if this has already been discussed in the past but won't ask this again. I am still in doubt with relation to which Generation AMCA will actually belong to.

• 1.Will AMCA MK-1 be a 5th generation fighter or will it be 5.5 generation?
• 2.Will AMCA MK-2 be a 5.5 generation fighter or will it be 6th generation?

Kindly clear the Confusion please. Thank you in advance to those who answer.

In my understanding, MK1 will be 5th gen provide they stricty follow design guideline like in F-22/35.
And at this time i doubt if MK2 will be 5.5gen bcoz even F-22/35 cannot be called 5.5th gen yet. It will depend on their MLU that too after 6th gen will be revealed & start flying.
6th gen theoretically outlines superset of - DEW & UCAV wingmen, AI, cyber wafare, virtual cockpit, augmented reality, variable cycle engine, more smart & self-defence weapons, multi-spectral & mulri-function sensors, etc. None of these things have significant practical R&D, demo in our country so far. it is all in theory & study phase.
Hence HAL CATS, Ghatak, etc sound very nice but UCAV requires very high degree of autonomy, accuracy for just formation flying, collison avoidance. It is not simple as flying small drones together for public light show.
We have developed "Adrishya" RAM but no further news on it. The SPORT cockpit looks very nics in simulator but it has to be shown on a flying plane. There is no news on F-35 like HMDS, but Russians are building for Su-57. We are developing smart weapons like SAAW similar to SDB, etc so many other such A-A & A-G weapons are required. Traditional weapons are good only for 4th gen. Leave multi-spectral & functional sensors, we have to consult Russia & others for implemnting MAWS on MKI, that indicates lack of confidence & research in aerodynamics. They should follow either Su-35 or MKM. We have faced huge issues with Kaveri engine & will be using GE414 for 3 of our jets, then how to develop variable cycle engine?
So for us when true 5th gen IOC year is yet to be confirmed then 5.5 gen will require a decade more at least
I think MK2 will be true 5th gen & MK3 could be 5.5gen in 2040s.
Lastly, we have to inflate AMCA to AHCA if 5.5gen has to be achieved otherwise LCA-MWF delay & lessons will repeat with AMCA. We should always keep in mind that to achieve all these things we have to absorb the technical population passing out every year from colleges. Like Munna Bhai said "Itne saare engineering colleges achaar daalne e liye hain kya?"

 

[SARTHAK]

if this govt remains after 2024,there will be a ray of hope otherwise congi is famous for neglecting defence needs. i am still looking forward to pvt. firms &drdo collab for advanced tech

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

And at this time i doubt if MK2 will be 5.5gen bcoz even F-22/35 cannot be called 5.5th gen yet. It will depend on their MLU that too after 6th gen will be revealed & start flying.

If AMCA mk2 can cooperate the following features expect it to be 5.5th gen or 6th gen.
1.The jet will have stealth features and enabling it to have very small Radar Cross Section (RCS).< 0.01sq mt.
2.The aircraft features 3D thrust vectoring capability for enhanced manoeuvrability.
3.Its radar will be an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar called the 'Multifunction RF Sensor', which is intended to have broad spectrum agility, capabilities for electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic support measures (ESM),communications functions, and possibly even microwave weapon functions(for incoming missiles).
4.Among the planned features is a fly-by-optics flight control system.(making it impervious to Jamming)
5.Ability to super cruise at Mach 1.5-1.8.
6.A 'Self Repairing Flight Control Capability' which will allow the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces like wings, and use the remaining control surfaces to calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight.
7.Adaptive cycle engine/Next Gen Engine that will ensure compact size, lesser parts thus low maintenance, higher thrust to weight ratio & lesser fuel consumption thus increasing combat range.

 

[SARTHAK]

If AMCA mk2 can cooperate the following features expect it to be 5.5th gen or 6th gen.
1.The jet will have stealth features and enabling it to have very small Radar Cross Section (RCS).< 0.01sq mt.
2.The aircraft features 3D thrust vectoring capability for enhanced manoeuvrability.
3.Its radar will be an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar called the 'Multifunction RF Sensor', which is intended to have broad spectrum agility, capabilities for electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic support measures (ESM),communications functions, and possibly even microwave weapon functions(for incoming missiles).
4.Among the planned features is a fly-by-optics flight control system.(making it impervious to Jamming)
5.Ability to super cruise at Mach 1.5-1.8.
6.A 'Self Repairing Flight Control Capability' which will allow the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces like wings, and use the remaining control surfaces to calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight.
7.Adaptive cycle engine/Next Gen Engine that will ensure compact size, lesser parts thus low maintenance, higher thrust to weight ratio & lesser fuel consumption thus increasing combat range.

a huge improvement in ir signatures is also being cited as feature in 6th gen ,usaf is reportedly testing new coating on f22 (looks like new silver livery)

 

[Arpuster]

If AMCA mk2 can cooperate the following features expect it to be 5.5th gen or 6th gen.
1.The jet will have stealth features and enabling it to have very small Radar Cross Section (RCS).< 0.01sq mt.
2.The aircraft features 3D thrust vectoring capability for enhanced manoeuvrability.
3.Its radar will be an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar called the 'Multifunction RF Sensor', which is intended to have broad spectrum agility, capabilities for electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic support measures (ESM),communications functions, and possibly even microwave weapon functions(for incoming missiles).
4.Among the planned features is a fly-by-optics flight control system.(making it impervious to Jamming)
5.Ability to super cruise at Mach 1.5-1.8.
6.A 'Self Repairing Flight Control Capability' which will allow the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces like wings, and use the remaining control surfaces to calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight.
7.Adaptive cycle engine/Next Gen Engine that will ensure compact size, lesser parts thus low maintenance, higher thrust to weight ratio & lesser fuel consumption thus increasing combat range.

Add combat cloud, DEWs, hypersonic weapons, MUMT, AI, Optionally manned capabilities. All of these are planned for AMCA mk2 and under various stages of R&D.

 

[Arpuster]

In my understanding, MK1 will be 5th gen provide they stricty follow design guideline like in F-22/35.
And at this time i doubt if MK2 will be 5.5gen bcoz even F-22/35 cannot be called 5.5th gen yet. It will depend on their MLU that too after 6th gen will be revealed & start flying.
6th gen theoretically outlines superset of - DEW & UCAV wingmen, AI, cyber wafare, virtual cockpit, augmented reality, variable cycle engine, more smart & self-defence weapons, multi-spectral & mulri-function sensors, etc. None of these things have significant practical R&D, demo in our country so far. it is all in theory & study phase.
Hence HAL CATS, Ghatak, etc sound very nice but UCAV requires very high degree of autonomy, accuracy for just formation flying, collison avoidance. It is not simple as flying small drones together for public light show.
We have developed "Adrishya" RAM but no further news on it. The SPORT cockpit looks very nics in simulator but it has to be shown on a flying plane. There is no news on F-35 like HMDS, but Russians are building for Su-57. We are developing smart weapons like SAAW similar to SDB, etc so many other such A-A & A-G weapons are required. Traditional weapons are good only for 4th gen. Leave multi-spectral & functional sensors, we have to consult Russia & others for implemnting MAWS on MKI, that indicates lack of confidence & research in aerodynamics. They should follow either Su-35 or MKM. We have faced huge issues with Kaveri engine & will be using GE414 for 3 of our jets, then how to develop variable cycle engine?
So for us when true 5th gen IOC year is yet to be confirmed then 5.5 gen will require a decade more at least
I think MK2 will be true 5th gen & MK3 could be 5.5gen in 2040s.
Lastly, we have to inflate AMCA to AHCA if 5.5gen has to be achieved otherwise LCA-MWF delay & lessons will repeat with AMCA. We should always keep in mind that to achieve all these things we have to absorb the technical population passing out every year from colleges. Like Munna Bhai said "Itne saare engineering colleges achaar daalne e liye hain kya?"

We dont have source codes for Su 30mki thats why we need to consult Sukhoi as Sukhoi is the OEM of that jet not us. It doesnt indicate anything about our indigenous technical capabilities. We not need anybody’s consultation for adding our indigenous avionics in Tejas. Regarding AMCA, all the technologies for making it 5.5 gen is under advance stages of R&D. Some of them are even ready and under procurement for LCA mk2 and AMCA prototypes. CATS program, Ghatak all are in advance stages with SWIFT even in taxi trails. Info about R&D works in various DRDO labs regarding DEW, lasers, hypersonic, AI etc are appearing tym to tym.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

We dont have source codes for Su 30mki thats why we need to consult Sukhoi as Sukhoi is the OEM of that jet not us. It doesnt indicate anything about our indigenous technical capabilities. We not need anybody’s consultation for adding our indigenous avionics in Tejas. Regarding AMCA, all the technologies for making it 5.5 gen is under advance stages of R&D. Some of them are even ready and under procurement for LCA mk2 and AMCA prototypes. CATS program, Ghatak all are in advance stages with SWIFT even in taxi trails. Info about R&D works in various DRDO labs regarding DEW, lasers, hypersonic, AI etc are appearing tym to tym.

Whatever be the case with MKI it is taking too long for implementing MAWS. So like i said either they should do like Su-35 6-axis position which is proven in Russian & American jets, or follow MKM. They may not have given source code to Malaysians either.
I have writen about what we require for 6th & 5.5 gen. If u say that AMCA will be 5.5 gen then please specify which iteration & give some convincing pic, diagram, interview video, etc on progress of sub-systems required. Just saying it is very easy.
Swift/Ghatak's scaled down version is being tested, not full scale, that too taxi, that is preliminary stage,not advanced. Even RuAF & USAF have not demonstrated autonomous formation flying yet.
I'm aware of progress on ground-vehicle based laser system but implementing on fighter jet is another thing, that too in a stealthy way.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

If AMCA mk2 can cooperate the following features expect it to be 5.5th gen or 6th gen.
1.The jet will have stealth features and enabling it to have very small Radar Cross Section (RCS).< 0.01sq mt.
2.The aircraft features 3D thrust vectoring capability for enhanced manoeuvrability.
3.Its radar will be an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar called the 'Multifunction RF Sensor', which is intended to have broad spectrum agility, capabilities for electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic support measures (ESM),communications functions, and possibly even microwave weapon functions(for incoming missiles).
4.Among the planned features is a fly-by-optics flight control system.(making it impervious to Jamming)
5.Ability to super cruise at Mach 1.5-1.8.
6.A 'Self Repairing Flight Control Capability' which will allow the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces like wings, and use the remaining control surfaces to calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight.
7.Adaptive cycle engine/Next Gen Engine that will ensure compact size, lesser parts thus low maintenance, higher thrust to weight ratio & lesser fuel consumption thus increasing combat range.

Points 1 to 6 are of 5th gen, not 5.5, i can't comment on self-repair, sounds like Star Trek.
F-22 RCS is 0.00015 sqm, F-35 has 0.0015 sqm.
Point 7 depends on our JV result.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

Points 1 to 6 are of 5th gen, not 5.5, i can't comment on self-repair, sounds like Star Trek.
F-22 RCS is 0.00015 sqm, F-35 has 0.0015 sqm.
Point 7 depends on our JV result.

F35 doesn’t have 3d thrust vectoring nor super cruise or fly by optics let alone self repairing abilit.
basically except for piont 1&3 it doesn’t have anything else but still you will call it 5th gen am i right?
Just radar evasion(pure stealth) is not everything in current senario even it isn’t economical very reason usaf now looking for -5th gen fighter designs aswell.
I don’t expect AMCA mk2 or even mk3 if it happens to be as or more stealthy than f35.
But will have all other stuffs better than f35 as mentioned above, thus will definitely be a 5.5 gen but yeah calling 6th gen be a exaggeration.
&
about self repair is more in the realm of loaded sensors(AI) which will try to keep the system functional not like terminator.(Japan working on the same stuff)

 

[SARTHAK]

Points 1 to 6 are of 5th gen, not 5.5, i can't comment on self-repair, sounds like Star Trek.
F-22 RCS is 0.00015 sqm, F-35 has 0.0015 sqm.
Point 7 depends on our JV result.

self repair is not what it sounds like , f35 already has it ,it actually means we have such an advanced fly by wire algorithm that if the missile hits and damages any flight control surface or system circuit gets damaged due to hit , the fly by wire will ensure that aircraft stays in full control of the pilot even without that control surface , secondly if any internal circuit is damaged after missile hit ,the internal structure of the circuit should have alternate routes to complete the circuit and get the electronics working even after hit ,that is what is self repair , so not a big deal we can achieve it although not easy but not on sci lvl

 

[SARTHAK]

does rafale have this self repair ?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

F35 doesn’t have 3d thrust vectoring nor super cruise or fly by optics let alone self repairing abilit.
basically except for piont 1&3 it doesn’t have anything else but still you will call it 5th gen am i right?
Just radar evasion(pure stealth) is not everything in current senario even it isn’t economical very reason usaf now looking for -5th gen fighter designs aswell.
I don’t expect AMCA mk2 or even mk3 if it happens to be as or more stealthy than f35.
But will have all other stuffs better than f35 as mentioned above, thus will definitely be a 5.5 gen but yeah calling 6th gen be a exaggeration.
&
about self repair is more in the realm of loaded sensors(AI) which will try to keep the system functional not like terminator.(Japan working on the same stuff)

If 1 jet faulters in some criteria(s), that doesn't change superset of criterias.
For 5th gen, stealth, sensor fused avionics, S/w driven are primary characteristics.
F-35's VTOL requirement killed its TVC & i think it doesn't have enough lift which affects its speed. Fibre optic cables might be present in it, they won't be visible during assembly as it is very delicate & shielded.
But it really doesn't bother me if someone wants to criticize F-35. It is unusual unlucky combo of good & bad things.
It is premature to comment on AMCA. Action speak more than words, so we have to wait & see its progress from protoype to IOC.
Avionics is made triple/quadruple redundant. Other than that i don't know about self-repair. Aircraft body is a delicate one. Just like organs of our body, 1 component can affect jet's functioning.

 

[johnj]

If AMCA mk2 can cooperate the following features expect it to be 5.5th gen or 6th gen.
1.The jet will have stealth features and enabling it to have very small Radar Cross Section (RCS).< 0.01sq mt.
2.The aircraft features 3D thrust vectoring capability for enhanced manoeuvrability.
3.Its radar will be an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar called the 'Multifunction RF Sensor', which is intended to have broad spectrum agility, capabilities for electronic countermeasures (ECM), electronic support measures (ESM),communications functions, and possibly even microwave weapon functions(for incoming missiles).
4.Among the planned features is a fly-by-optics flight control system.(making it impervious to Jamming)
5.Ability to super cruise at Mach 1.5-1.8.
6.A 'Self Repairing Flight Control Capability' which will allow the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces like wings, and use the remaining control surfaces to calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight.
7.Adaptive cycle engine/Next Gen Engine that will ensure compact size, lesser parts thus low maintenance, higher thrust to weight ratio & lesser fuel consumption thus increasing combat range.

1,2,3,4,5 - 5th gen.
6. one of 6th gen feature of japans jet
7. usa 5.5/6 gen tech for engine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If advanced stealth integrated plus more advanced engine is the main feature of 5th gen, then advanced ai integrated plus next gen engine define sixth gen// weapons extra// advanced sensors etc with eneray attack capability. Each countries 6th gen differs with each other but ai/stealth/next gen sensor & coms & engine/dew will be common.

 

[Arpuster]

Whatever be the case with MKI it is taking too long for implementing MAWS. So like i said either they should do like Su-35 6-axis position which is proven in Russian & American jets, or follow MKM. They may not have given source code to Malaysians either.
I have writen about what we require for 6th & 5.5 gen. If u say that AMCA will be 5.5 gen then please specify which iteration & give some convincing pic, diagram, interview video, etc on progress of sub-systems required. Just saying it is very easy.
Swift/Ghatak's scaled down version is being tested, not full scale, that too taxi, that is preliminary stage,not advanced. Even RuAF & USAF have not demonstrated autonomous formation flying yet.
I'm aware of progress on ground-vehicle based laser system but implementing on fighter jet is another thing, that too in a stealthy way.

Super Sukhoi upgrade is taking tym may b due to some non agreement between Russia and India or cost issues. Whatever requirements you have stated will already be in AMCA. There are plenty of interviews of DRDO, ADA & HAL folks plus Aero India iterations plus tenders etc are available, go through this thread or DRDO, PSU threads or search online please. Some of the requirements like MUMT etc are being offered even with LCA mk2.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

self repair is not what it sounds like , f35 already has it ,it actually means we have such an advanced fly by wire algorithm that if the missile hits and damages any flight control surface or system circuit gets damaged due to hit , the fly by wire will ensure that aircraft stays in full control of the pilot even without that control surface , secondly if any internal circuit is damaged after missile hit ,the internal structure of the circuit should have alternate routes to complete the circuit and get the electronics working even after hit ,that is what is self repair , so not a big deal we can achieve it although not easy but not on sci lvl

Yes, avionics can be designed to be triple/quadruple redundant. Physical electronics cables can be routed on 4 sides of body. Kevlar composite material can protect to some extent from shrapnels of missiles. But still jet is a delicate thing overall. Damage & Pk depends on type of missile & warhead. many control surfaces can act in redundant way like flaps can act as aeleron becoming flaperon.
Perhaps for engine & wing redundancy we should implement the Star Wars X-wing jet

 

[johnj]

F35 doesn’t have 3d thrust vectoring nor super cruise or fly by optics let alone self repairing abilit.
basically except for piont 1&3 it doesn’t have anything else but still you will call it 5th gen am i right?
Just radar evasion(pure stealth) is not everything in current senario even it isn’t economical very reason usaf now looking for -5th gen fighter designs aswell.
I don’t expect AMCA mk2 or even mk3 if it happens to be as or more stealthy than f35.
But will have all other stuffs better than f35 as mentioned above, thus will definitely be a 5.5 gen but yeah calling 6th gen be a exaggeration.
&
about self repair is more in the realm of loaded sensors(AI) which will try to keep the system functional not like terminator.(Japan working on the same stuff)

3d tvc/ super cruise/ optical cables comes under 4th/5th gen tech and using those tech depends on each countries. Self repair sound like si-fi but it nothing but a advanced algorithm for flight control to bring back jet once it gets damaged or to engage in war accordance to the damage. EU, Russia. Japan, US developing jets according to their needs with a lots of differences.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Super Sukhoi upgrade is taking tym may b due to some non agreement between Russia and India or cost issues. Whatever requirements you have stated will already be in AMCA. There are plenty of interviews of DRDO, ADA & HAL folks plus Aero India iterations plus tenders etc are available, go through this thread or DRDO, PSU threads or search online please. Some of the requirements like MUMT etc are being offered even with LCA mk2.

I think it is better to wait for the prototypes to fly. It will clear lot of things & give indications.

 

[SARTHAK]

all the things regarding 5.5th gen and 6th gen are speculations as of now and these terms are given by usa , so this is like USAF renamed 4.5 gen jets as 5 gen minus jets some months or probably a year ago ,now we should call all 4.5 gen jets as 5th gen minus !!!, as per the definition of 5th gen jets supercruise was mandatory but now f35 lacks it so its not 5th gen !! the thing is armed forces want to pursue a program based on threats they face and not naming acronyms , as far as india is concerned we have a hostile "wanna be superpower" in the north , so we should approach amca on practical basis rather than indulge in "gen" ambiguity

 

[johnj]

Super Sukhoi - upgrade mki with fgfa tech, not a active pgm.
Lite upgrade with sm tech- not interested.
Now, lite upgrade with desi tech lite and in future desi 4.5/5 gen tech upgrade with russian engine & support.
Super mki share tech with mk2/amca.

 

[Arpuster]

I think it is better to wait for the prototypes to fly. It will clear lot of things & give indications.

AMCA mk 2 will have all the features of 5.5 gen and it will start flying in 2030s so we have to wait till then. Prototypes will start flying 2026 onwards but will not have all of 5.5 G properties.