AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[The Mimic]

Can anyone forum members can shed light. Is IAF have a eye on SU-57 ? Because in current form it is not having any substantial tech to match F22 or F35. But we are developing EOTS and also JV with Safran for 125 KN engine. Maybe in future we will acquire SU-57 frame and integrate AMCA EW suite and engines so we can have SU-30 MKI replacement. So in coming years we have both AMCA and SU-57MKI can do duty for us.

I'm gonna put some dirt in your eye! We don't do that here.

 

[Blademaster]

I don't understand why you guys are worrying about AMCA's external payload carrying capacity. Don't you guys have anything better to ask? Like "what is the dimension of AMCA's weapon bay" or "how many Astra mk3 BVRAAM it can carry" or "can it carry 4 BVRAAM & 2 CCM missile at the same time in it's bay"?

AMCA is stealth plane which will be used in 99% of time in air superiority, SEAD & DEAD role. It's not a missile truck. We have Sukhois for that.

it speaks to the power and efficiency of the design. The greater the payload capacity the easier is to carry 6 tons or something. You want to push the envelope so at 80% capacity, you are able to do it with ease.

 

[johnj]

Can anyone forum members can shed light. Is IAF have a eye on SU-57 ? Because in current form it is not having any substantial tech to match F22 or F35. But we are developing EOTS and also JV with Safran for 125 KN engine. Maybe in future we will acquire SU-57 frame and integrate AMCA EW suite and engines so we can have SU-30 MKI replacement. So in coming years we have both AMCA and SU-57MKI can do duty for us.

Its depends on two things 1. su57 engine and 2. AMCA development. or. 1. su57 engine and 2.paf acquiring 5th gen. So considering sanctions on Russia chance is very slim.

 

[Echo1Charlie]

I'm gonna put some dirt in your eye! We don't do that here.

Importing Su-57 and upgrading it with techs developed for AMCA... sounds familiar...

 

[Trololo]

iaf was initially going for su 57 only, but sheit happened.

dont take tension, amca will be better than su 57.

AMCA wont match Su 57 in raw numbers in A2A performance. Will trounce it in all other comparisons.

 

[Vamsi]

AMCA wont match Su 57 in raw numbers in A2A performance. Will trounce it in all other comparisons.

why do you think so?? with thrust vector control and T/W ratio > 1 in stealth mode, it will be super agile. I know ,I know we should not compare both of em yet..but still

 

[karn]

why do you think so?? with thrust vector control and T/W ratio > 1 in stealth mode, it will be super agile. I know ,I know we should not compare both of em yet..but still

That's amca mk2 which we cannot even put a date for entering service.
With the 414 it won't be super agile.

 

[WolfPack86]

HAL BEGINS MANUFACTURING OF INDIA’S ADVANCED MEDIUM COMBAT AIRCRAFT (AMCA)
India’s state-owned aerospace & defence firm Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has started manufacturing India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) in association with DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Agency.

The AMCA program entered a crucial phase with the starting of manufacturing activities. It is noteworthy that, the plan envisages to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy with a 5.5 Generation twin-engine stealth fighter.

Inside The Design & Development

While the design and development will be carried out by HAL and ADA, private defence firms will also be roped in to manufacture the combat jet. The advanced stealth aircraft will be a multirole fighter capable of carrying out air superiority, ground strike, suppression of enemy air defences and electronic warfare missions.

Notably, the first two squadrons in AMCA MK-1 configuration will be powered by an imported engine, another five squadrons with advanced features (Mark 2) will use made-in-India 125-kilonewton engines along with 6th Generation technologies.

It is important to note that the new engine for the fighter will be jointly developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Safran of France.

The advanced stealth aircraft will bolster India’s air arsenal by enhancing air superiority. Further, the naval version of aircraft will become the primary combat jet operating from the Indian Navy’s aircraft carriers.

Apart from stealth features, the advanced aircraft will encompass three-dimensional thrust vectoring, made-in-India Uttam active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, and internal weapons bay to bolster the stealth capabilities of the aircraft.

AMCA can clock a maximum speed of over 2,600 kilometres per hour (Mach 2.15), along with the combat range of 1,620 km. The fighter will be equipped with 23 mm cannon and will have 14 hardpoints in non-stealth version to carry armaments weighing 6,500 kgs.

Presently, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is in process of manufacturing MK-2 version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) TEJAS along with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), as well as the AMCA and the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), for the Indian Navy

Addressing the media, Girish S Deodhare, Director General of ADA stated, “The configuration has been frozen, Preliminary Service Quality Requirements (PSQR) are finalised and the preliminary design review is complete. The Critical Design Review (CDR) is expected later this year with the rollout planned in 2024 and first flight planned in 2025.”

HAL Begins Manufacturing of India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

India’s state-owned aerospace & defence firm Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has started manufacturing India’s Advanced Medium Combat Ai...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Can anyone forum members can shed light. Is IAF have a eye on SU-57 ? Because in current form it is not having any substantial tech to match F22 or F35. But we are developing EOTS and also JV with Safran for 125 KN engine. Maybe in future we will acquire SU-57 frame and integrate AMCA EW suite and engines so we can have SU-30 MKI replacement. So in coming years we have both AMCA and SU-57MKI can do duty for us.

No good can come from this. It will unnecessary drain our export, make us more dependent on Russia with limited customization. Our industry and R&D won't benefit much. Same goes to Su-75. We should stay away from any imported 5th generation platform, especially Russian.

We are much better-off by focusing on AMCA.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

It can only carry 6.5 tons? despite having two engines?? the F-35 can carry over 9 tons with one engine.

Even the Rafale can carry over 9 tons externally. It seems that stealth has forced the DRDO designers to make certain compromises with airflow efficiency.

Amca is more leaned towards aerodynamics than any other 5th gen except ruskies who will suicide if one of their plane isn't maneuverable enough

How is it possible that only AMCA has to sacrifice payload for steaith, but not F-35 which is also a steaith war plane?

Understating the specs has been a tradition with DRDO. The KF-21 with the same stealth "compromises" and the same engines will do about 7.7 tons- no reason for AMCA to be vastly inferior.

Meet South Korea's New KF-21 "Hawk" Indigenous Fighter

Developed under an ambitious timeline, the fighter will complement F-35s and older fighters as part of a revamped Republic of Korea Air Force.

www.thedrive.com

Serpentine intakes are a requirement of steaith design to shield engine from probing radar waves- that in turn lowers pressure recovery which is bad for thrust. Besides this delta wings for high lift are out of consideration because of stealth. But similar choices were made by all stealth planes.

AMCA is a 23-25 ton jet with 6.5 ton weapon pay load

F35 is a 31 ton jet with 8.5 to 9 ton weapon pay load

for all the questions regarding payload carrying capacity, we should acknowledge that it is the first 5th gen fighter DRDO & ADA are developing thus the emphasis is more on developing efficient systems rather than just brute stats.
secondly, we all know how much scrutinised ADA & DRDO are by international media or even our own leftist
US & Europe wants to prove they are more technologically advanced that India can’t be,
China wants to mock every mistake we make to keep that psychological pressure on us.
think about it, even Russia would be happy if we don’t succeed coz if we do…why would we pay royalties to them.
last but not the least Tejas is the only fighter jet to be developed without any crash touchwood, but still it is the most criticised fighter of all time domestically as well as internationally.

thus DRDO & ADA have all the rights to keep the numbers to bare minimum and get the thing working, once it does.
You will see the stats rising just as it happened with Tejas mk1 transition to Tejas mk2!!

I have quoted it before…expect AMCA mk2 to be in the vicinity of 30Tons!

One request to all please watch and promote Kashmir Files…
(The world needs to know)
Jai Hind!

 

[THESIS THORON]

for all the questions regarding payload carrying capacity, we should acknowledge that it is the first 5th gen fighter DRDO & ADA are developing thus the emphasis is more on developing efficient systems rather than just brute stats.
secondly, we all know how much scrutinised ADA & DRDO are by international media or even our own leftist
US & Europe wants to prove they are more technologically advanced that India can’t be,
China wants to mock every mistake we make to keep that psychological pressure on us.
think about it, even Russia would be happy if we don’t succeed coz if we do…why would we pay royalties to them.
last but not the least Tejas is the only fighter jet to be developed without any crash touchwood, but still it is the most criticised fighter of all time domestically as well as internationally.

thus DRDO & ADA have all the rights to keep the numbers to bare minimum and get the thing working, once it does.
You will see the stats rising just as it happened with Tejas mk1 transition to Tejas mk2!!

I have quoted it before…expect AMCA mk2 to be in the vicinity of 30Tons!

One request to all please watch and promote Kashmir Files…
(The world needs to know)
Jai Hind!

just I wanted side bays for ccm in amca

 

[Lonewolf]

just I wanted side bays for ccm in amca

Wait till mk2

 

[MonaLazy]

we all know how much scrutinised ADA & DRDO are by international media or even our own leftist
US & Europe wants to prove they are more technologically advanced that India can’t be,
China wants to mock every mistake we make to keep that psychological pressure on us.
think about it, even Russia would be happy if we don’t succeed coz if we do…why would we pay royalties to them.

Since when did other's opinion of us guide our programs? Even if we deliver an F-35 equivalent, to the west it will always be a 4.75++ gen fighter.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Yeah probably due to not enough airflow to create sufficient lift and the size of the air intakes to produce sufficient thrust.

AMCA MK1 will have 55 sqm wing area while F-35A wing area is 43sqm (perhaps to reduce cost) & hence the leading edge sweep angle is decreased & the common fuselage is a lifting body design at nose, cheeks, intakes, LER, while AMCA MK-1 seems to be more sleek & piercing, perhaps to aid super-cruise.
The lifting body actually increases RCS compared to sleeker body, 1 of the reasons why F-35 has 10x more RCS than F-22.
The DSI bumps also contribute to RCS & makes any jet look like it got tonsilitis or mumps.
The belly is also quiet bumpy rather than like F-22.

Even the Rafale can carry over 9 tons externally. It seems that stealth has forced the DRDO designers to make certain compromises with airflow efficiency.

Rafale's total load is 9T due to lack of IWB (which itself has weight add.) & lift given by canards & its LERX while AMCA MK1 won't have canards & LERX. So it is is not a compromise on airflow at all.

It can only carry 6.5 tons? despite having two engines?? the F-35 can carry over 9 tons with one engine.

Only # of engines doesn't matter. Total thrust with aerodynamics & airframe strength matter.
F-35 has 125KN engine & AMCA MK1 will use F-18E's engine 2xGE-414=116KN.
F-35 started with X-35 w/o IWB, so AMCA MK1 will hopefully have far better MK2 version. I'll compare AMCA program little bit with F-22 program, in way of progress bcoz YF-22 was quite close to F-22 in DEMVAL program demonstrating Sidewinder & AMRAAM shots & other capabilities. Similarly AMCA MK1 could be LSP (Limited Series Production) & later upgraded to MK2 when stronger engine by JV/indegenous options is available. We already did something similar by getting Su-30K & upgrading/replacing them with MKI version. And now LCA has been inflated to MWF. So AMCA MK2 also will be far better. AMCA might also get inflated to AHCA with some structural changes as replacement of MKI, who knows?
A rough comparison:
AMRAAM weighs 335 lb (152 kg), AIM-9X weighs 188 pounds (85.3 kg).
F-35's stealth A-A load has only 4 AMRAAMs= 608 Kg, so F-35 has stealth dry T/W ratio of (125*225)/{(13.3+8.3+0.6)*1000*2.2}= 28125/48840=0.58
Astr AAM weighs 154 kg (340 lb) & AMCA can carry 4 of them = 616Kg.
AMCA has stealth A-A dry T/W ratio= (2*58*225)/{(12+6.5+0.6)*1000*2.2}=26100/42020=0.62, more than F-35.
Coming to max load, F-35 is depicted to carry 10.1 T (22.3K lbs), so MTOW = 10.1+13.3+8.3=31.7 T & dry T/Wmax= (125*225)/{(13.3+8.3+10.1)*1000*2.2}=28125/69740= 0.4

480 gallon full fuel tank = 4,100lb
AGM-158C LRASM is 2,500lb,
AGM-158 JASSM is 2,251lb
GBU-31 JDAM is 2,000lb
Paveway LGBs are max 2,000lb
so the heaviest load i can think is similar to following:

Replace outer CCM with AMRAAM & JDAM with LRASM.
So we have external (2x300lb AAM + 2x2,500lb LRASM + 2x4,100lb tank + 1000lb gun pod)=14,800lb=6.7T
and internal (2x300lb AMRAAM + 2x2,000lb JDAM)=4,600lb=2.1T
Total load is coming to 8.8T.
MTOWmax= 13.3+8.3+(6.7+2.1)=30.4T=66,880lb
& dry T/Wmax=28125/66880=0.42

By same dry T/Wmax=0.42 AMCA should be able to pull up {(2*58*225)/(0.42*1000*2.2)}=28.24T MTOW instead of 25T or 28.24-12-6.5=9.74 Tons total load theoretically instead of 6.5T. But like i said, aerodynamics & airframe structure also matter. AMCA doesn't seem to be lifting body fuselage.

USA & France have vast experience of series of jets but we have to play safe with our 1st indegenous stealth jet prototype. Succesive testing & improvements might actually prove higher total load from 6.5 to 8-9 T in MK1 version itself perhaps.
Aeronauticsis highly practical stuff.
So with AMCA, it is not compromise on airflow, etc but a safety margin & try to maintain stealth, supercruise, & avoiding overconfident estimates & overhyped publicity, etc when the prototype is yet to fly. It is an intelligent & matured action.

I think right now what we are seeing in modern day combat is that manueverability takes a lesser precedence than stealth. Stealth allows you to get in there undetected and you don't need to do fancy flying if no one can see you and you can slip by and drop your payload and get out undetected.

RF & IR Stealth is advantageous only when adversary's RF & IR capability is considerably lesser. It is easy for a technologically better &/or bigger country or alliance to defeat smaller &/or lagging country/alliance. The stealth engagement window is small & crucial.
The bombs & missiles & the IWB also need to be stealthy otherwise their RCS/IR detection can give away location. So it is impossible to hide burning of fossil fuel by the jet & a missile. Military & remote-sensing satellites can also detect aircrafts & terrain changes with modified algorithms.
If both sides have equal stealth &/or RF/IR jammers then outcome is non-deterministic & depends on gunfight where TVC & pilot skill will dominate.
So, until DEWs are implemented, TVC & guns will play important role. Hence F-22 has TVC & gun & F-35 w/o TVC can loose a gun-dogfight against an agile jet of any size.
There is no CG model but AMCA will have a 23 mm GSh-23 gun in MK1 & most probably TVC also in MK2 version. As Su-57 has 2 embedded DIRCMs hence AMCA MK1 must also think of it. Now when AMCA will have F-35 style EOTS & perhaps DAS too then an early CG model released showing possible IRST turret-balls can actually be used for DIRCMs similar to in Su-57 (fwd. upper one relocated to neck behind cockpit).

 

[vidhwanshak]

Lol. Currently on Lunar trials.

Did you pass underwater trials?
And what about hopping in Himalayas trials? You passed it right?

 

[Blademaster]

AMCA MK1 will have 55 sqm wing area while F-35A wing area is 43sqm (perhaps to reduce cost) & hence the leading edge sweep angle is decreased & the common fuselage is a lifting body design at nose, cheeks, intakes, LER, while AMCA MK-1 seems to be more sleek & piercing, perhaps to aid super-cruise.
The lifting body actually increases RCS compared to sleeker body, 1 of the reasons why F-35 has 10x more RCS than F-22.
The DSI bumps also contribute to RCS & makes any jet look like it got tonsilitis or mumps.
The belly is also quiet bumpy rather than like F-22.
View attachment 143586


Rafale's total load is 9T due to lack of IWB (which itself has weight add.) & lift given by canards & its LERX while AMCA MK1 won't have canards & LERX. So it is is not a compromise on airflow at all.

View attachment 143601


Only # of engines doesn't matter. Total thrust with aerodynamics & airframe strength matter.
F-35 has 125KN engine & AMCA MK1 will use F-18E's engine 2xGE-414=116KN.
F-35 started with X-35 w/o IWB, so AMCA MK1 will hopefully have far better MK2 version. I'll compare AMCA program little bit with F-22 program, in way of progress bcoz YF-22 was quite close to F-22 in DEMVAL program demonstrating Sidewinder & AMRAAM shots & other capabilities. Similarly AMCA MK1 could be LSP (Limited Series Production) & later upgraded to MK2 when stronger engine by JV/indegenous options is available. We already did something similar by getting Su-30K & upgrading/replacing them with MKI version. And now LCA has been inflated to MWF. So AMCA MK2 also will be far better. AMCA might also get inflated to AHCA with some structural changes as replacement of MKI, who knows?
A rough comparison:
AMRAAM weighs 335 lb (152 kg), AIM-9X weighs 188 pounds (85.3 kg).
F-35's stealth A-A load has only 4 AMRAAMs= 608 Kg, so F-35 has stealth dry T/W ratio of (125*225)/{(13.3+8.3+0.6)*1000*2.2}= 28125/48840=0.58
Astr AAM weighs 154 kg (340 lb) & AMCA can carry 4 of them = 616Kg.
AMCA has stealth A-A dry T/W ratio= (2*58*225)/{(12+6.5+0.6)*1000*2.2}=26100/42020=0.62, more than F-35.
Coming to max load, F-35 is depicted to carry 10.1 T (22.3K lbs), so MTOW = 10.1+13.3+8.3=31.7 T & dry T/Wmax= (125*225)/{(13.3+8.3+10.1)*1000*2.2}=28125/69740= 0.4
View attachment 143693
480 gallon full fuel tank = 4,100lb
AGM-158C LRASM is 2,500lb,
AGM-158 JASSM is 2,251lb
GBU-31 JDAM is 2,000lb
Paveway LGBs are max 2,000lb
so the heaviest load i can think is similar to following:
View attachment 143713
Replace outer CCM with AMRAAM & JDAM with LRASM.
So we have external (2x300lb AAM + 2x2,500lb LRASM + 2x4,100lb tank + 1000lb gun pod)=14,800lb=6.7T
and internal (2x300lb AMRAAM + 2x2,000lb JDAM)=4,600lb=2.1T
Total load is coming to 8.8T.
MTOWmax= 13.3+8.3+(6.7+2.1)=30.4T=66,880lb
& dry T/Wmax=28125/66880=0.42

By same dry T/Wmax=0.42 AMCA should be able to pull up {(2*58*225)/(0.42*1000*2.2)}=28.24T MTOW instead of 25T or 28.24-12-6.5=9.74 Tons total load theoretically instead of 6.5T. But like i said, aerodynamics & airframe structure also matter. AMCA doesn't seem to be lifting body fuselage.
View attachment 143705
USA & France have vast experience of series of jets but we have to play safe with our 1st indegenous stealth jet prototype. Succesive testing & improvements might actually prove higher total load from 6.5 to 8-9 T in MK1 version itself perhaps.
Aeronauticsis highly practical stuff.
So with AMCA, it is not compromise on airflow, etc but a safety margin & try to maintain stealth, supercruise, & avoiding overconfident estimates & overhyped publicity, etc when the prototype is yet to fly. It is an intelligent & matured action.



RF & IR Stealth is advantageous only when adversary's RF & IR capability is considerably lesser. It is easy for a technologically better &/or bigger country or alliance to defeat smaller &/or lagging country/alliance. The stealth engagement window is small & crucial.
The bombs & missiles & the IWB also need to be stealthy otherwise their RCS/IR detection can give away location. So it is impossible to hide burning of fossil fuel by the jet & a missile. Military & remote-sensing satellites can also detect aircrafts & terrain changes with modified algorithms.
If both sides have equal stealth &/or RF/IR jammers then outcome is non-deterministic & depends on gunfight where TVC & pilot skill will dominate.
So, until DEWs are implemented, TVC & guns will play important role. Hence F-22 has TVC & gun & F-35 w/o TVC can loose a gun-dogfight against an agile jet of any size.
There is no CG model but AMCA will have a 23 mm GSh-23 gun in MK1 & most probably TVC also in MK2 version. As Su-57 has 2 embedded DIRCMs hence AMCA MK1 must also think of it. Now when AMCA will have F-35 style EOTS & perhaps DAS too then an early CG model released showing possible IRST turret-balls can actually be used for DIRCMs similar to in Su-57 (fwd. upper one relocated to neck behind cockpit).
View attachment 143777

thank you for the detailed response. I appreciate the time and effort you put in your post.

 

[Love Charger]

Did you pass underwater trials?
And what about hopping in Himalayas trials? You passed it right?

Iam sorry babu

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

All this trials have completed. Currently firing trials with Hubble telescope as Target.

Did you pass underwater trials?
And what about hopping in Himalayas trials? You passed it right?

 

[India Super Power]

All this trials have completed. Currently firing trials with Hubble telescope as Target.

You are use less
You can't even fire a projectile from Earth to Neptune
You can't do anything
You just go u deserve no orders
Ok 118 max just take it as sympathy

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

thank you for the detailed response. I appreciate the time and effort you put in your post.

Forums should be like edutainment & genuine discussins, something to learn, not just responding for the sake of typing something