AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Bhartiya Sainik]

5th gen aircrafts will continue to be costly and nightmare for maintenance until 6th gen aircrafts become mainstream and that isn't going to happen soon.

A human does what it thinks. When a mentality grips the mind it becomes a strong belief.
Either we can always look for problems & lag behind or do something to eradicate the gap like colaborations, like EU has dumped 5th gen plan. They are upgrading their Rafales into F4 & EF-2000s into Tranche-4.
I'm saying to save funding for TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA & upgrade SU-30MKIs, MiG-29s. I just shared video above that our MiG-29s will be upgaded, Super-Sukhoi everybody knows.
Produce MK1A as LSP till then & get some jets in MRCA 2.0.

Incase you don't know ORCA is not even on paper for IAF,they don't have plans yet even to accommodate such aircraft.
ORCA is yet not in cards,how can you develop it.

Source?
It is not on paper for public citizens like u n me. Study could be definitely going on. Defence R&D is never revealed right away immediately. And TEDBF model has been revealed, the same airframe can be used like Rafale variants.

Not really
The tech gap b/w amca and tejas mk2 is huge but you don't see at as evolving tech
You have to clear the basics first(tejas mk2) and then move to advanced(amca)
Like radar uttam mk2(GaAs) to GaN
Direct jump would be risky and could take even more time than actually going phase by phase.
AMCA tech is indeed derived from mk2 in a sense that it's more advanced.

I respectfully disagree otherwise by this logic EU made the biggest mistake to dump 5th gen & MLU Rafale & EF-2000 till Tempest & FCAS will be ready.
Humor: Some African countries didn't have railway network until recently but they didn't start with steam engine, then diesel engine, then electric engine.

 

[SavageKing456]

A human does what it thinks. When a mentality grips the mind it becomes a strong belief.
Either we can always look for problems & lag behind or do something to eradicate the gap like colaborations, like EU has dumped 5th gen plan. They are upgrading their Rafales into F4 & EF-2000s into Tranche-4.
I'm saying to save funding for TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA & upgrade SU-30MKIs, MiG-29s. I just shared video above that our MiG-29s will be upgaded, Super-Sukhoi everybody knows.
Produce MK1A

I respectfully disagree otherwise by this logic EU made the biggest mistake to dump 5th gen & MLU Rafale & EF-2000 till Tempest & FCAS will be ready.
Humor: Some African countries didn't have railway network until recently but they didn't start with steam engine, then diesel engine, then electric engine.

EU's case is different they're going for joint venture as you can see with both tempest and FCAS,I can already see disagreement anyways even if they can develop 6th gen aircrafts it will be because of joint venture.
India's case is entirely different where we have to develop each and every tech of amca except engine for maximum possible indigenisation

Source?
It is not on paper for public citizens like u n me. Study could be definitely going on. Defence R&D is never revealed right away immediately. And TEDBF model has been revealed, the same airframe can be used like Rafale variants.

You don't need any source for that,there's no formal announcement nor any funds cleared for it.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Incase you don't know ORCA is not even on paper for IAF,they don't have plans yet even to accommodate such aircraft.
ORCA is yet not in cards,how can you develop it.

Just google on ORCA.

NDTV Exclusive: First Look At Futuristic Variant Of India's Tejas Fighter

In twelve years from now, a twin engine variant of India's Tejas fighter could start replacing Russian built MiG-29K jets deployed on board the Indian Navy's aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and Vikrant which is yet to be inducted.

www.ndtv.com

ORCA is mentionedin the article. It is written by Vishnu Som, a popular defence journalist who got opportunity to fly in back seat of few jets also.

But there are some confusions as he used a 2 engine canard version of LCA as TEDBF

but TEDBF is depicted as a better shaped new jet at Aero-India & elsewhere which i already shared.

This means there is a possibility that this airframe with gear & wing modifications could be used for AF also. It is being studied now so nothing can be said for sure. So don't deny something straight away unless u hav some official statement from DRDO/HAL/ADA/NAL.

 

[SavageKing456]

Just google on ORCA.

NDTV Exclusive: First Look At Futuristic Variant Of India's Tejas Fighter

In twelve years from now, a twin engine variant of India's Tejas fighter could start replacing Russian built MiG-29K jets deployed on board the Indian Navy's aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and Vikrant which is yet to be inducted.

www.ndtv.com

ORCA is mentionedin the article. It is written by Vishnu Som, a popular defence journalist who got opportunity to fly in back seat of few jets also.
View attachment 126625

But there are some confusions as he used a 2 engine canard version of LCA as TEDBF
View attachment 126628

but TEDBF is depicted as a better shaped new jet at Aero-India & elsewhere which i already shared.
View attachment 126631

This means there is a possibility that this airframe with gear & wing modifications could be used for AF also. It is being studied now so nothing can be said for sure. So don't deny something straight away unless u hav some official statement from DRDO/HAL/ADA/NAL.

Yea it's just on defence forums and articles
No funds have been cleared
Even if they start now it will take time to even get it formally announced.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

EU's case is different they're going for joint venture as you can see with both tempest and FCAS,I can already see disagreement anyways even if they can develop 6th gen aircrafts it will be because of joint venture.
India's case is entirely different where we have to develop each and every tech of amca except engine for maximum possible indigenisation

There were disagreement b/w France & Uk over EF-2000 & France separated & developed Rafale. Now both jets existin service. So initial disagreement doesn't stop natural evolution of technology.
I already mentioned that we can at least ask countries like Israel, Japan, Korea. See, evolution is inevitable, nobody can stop it. But question is "when".

You don't need any source for that,there's no formal announcement nor any funds cleared for it.

yes there is no formal announcement but u can google about ORCA which u r denying straight.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Yea it's just on defence forums and articles
No funds have been cleared
Even if they start now it will take time to even get it formally announced.

So how many Defence channel owners & journalists like Vishnu Som will u counter now? Leave me, im just another common citizen like u n others.
And obviously it is under study, how funds can be cleared? At least they r studying, right? That's optimism.
If ur opinion rejects TEDBF's design as ORCA & u like LCA based MWF more, no issues at all, that's ur personal opinion.

 

[SavageKing456]

There were disagreement b/w France & Uk over EF-2000 & France separated & developed Rafale. Now both jets existin service. So initial disagreement doesn't stop natural evolution of technology.
I already mentioned that we can at least ask countries like Israel, Japan, Korea. See, evolution is inevitable, nobody can stop it. But question is "when".

India is completely relying itself for amca
so we can't take up the risk unless it's jv.

yes there is no formal announcement but u can google about ORCA which u r denying straigh

What I said that it's not even in existing as a confirmed program conducting feasibility studies does not mean that program exists.
They're just checking whether it's feasible or not means they have yet not decided that whether IAF should have this in their arsenal or not that's why I said "not even in paper"
From here they can develop or leave it.
What I want to convey is that if now they start they will take time to develop it,by the time it takes first flight mk2 would enter production

Airforce lacks squadrons and they want to secure it quickly
Tejas mk2 does the job,I support ORCA as well but need tejas mk2 as well.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

India is completely relying itself for amca
so we can't take up the risk unless it's jv.

So that means 5th gen is not that costly after all as we can run it on our own, right? This proves my previous points negates the cost arguements of 5th gen in this decade of 2020s & beyond.
And today if will colaborate on design board then it will manifest after 15-20 years This is the right time to start talks on 6th gen. It can be called AHCA for now perhaps.

What I said that it's not even in existing as a confirmed program conducting feasibility studies does not mean that program exists.
They're just checking whether it's feasible or not means they have yet not decided that whether IAF should have this in their arsenal or not that's why I said "not even in paper"
From here they can develop or leave it.
What I want to convey is that if now they start they will take time to develop it,by the time it takes first flight mk2 would enter production

Airforce lacks squadrons and they want to secure it quickly
Tejas mk2 does the job

OK, So usage of improper lines like "not in cards, not on paper" can confuse others. If something is under study then that should be said precisely.
And if MK2 is based on LCA airframe then revealed airframe of TEDBF is already superior. Bcoz MK2 protoype is being made, it could be LSP. It is possible that TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA studies have been initiated in parallel. And all will get some common benefits bcoz our same engineers r making them.
There is something called ACCELERATED DEVELOPMENT where engineers are divided in shifts to study & develop something, which can be used for TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA, so that too many MK2 may not be needed.

 

[SavageKing456]

So that means 5th gen is not that costly after all as we can run it on our own, right? This proves my previous points negates the cost arguements of 5th gen in this decade of 2020s & beyond.
And today if will colaborate on design board then it will manifest after 15-20 years This is the right time to start talks on 6th gen. It can be called AHCA for now perhaps.

"Numbers"
Amca would be in less numbers
6th gen yes we can go but it depends because our JV program
like fgfa have been a disaster so far.
IAF knows this and that's why they're going for mk2 tejas.

OK, So usage of improper lines like "not in cards, not on paper" can confuse others. If something is under study then that should be said precisely.
And if MK2 is based on LCA airframe then revealed airframe of TEDBF is already superior. Bcoz MK2 protoype is being made, it could be LSP. It is possible that TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA studies have been initiated in parallel. And all will get some common benefits bcoz our same engineers r making them.
There is something called ACCELERATED DEVELOPMENT where engineers are divided in shifts to study & develop something, which can be used for TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA, so that too many MK2 may not be needed.

We face active border threat rn
So we need to quickly fill up
Even if orca gets approval by 2023 it will take atleast 7-8 years to take first flight here we need TDs too unlike tejas mk2 +flight trials and then we have production no matter how much fast you do development it will take around 2035 atleast to enter production by that time IAF will wait?
Orca indeed makes sense for long term but for short term tejas mk2 is necessary.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

"Numbers"
Amca would be in less numbers
6th gen yes we can go but it depends because our JV program
like fgfa have been a disaster so far.
IAF knows this and that's why they're going for mk2 tejas.

Why r u connecting 4.5 gen & 6th gen?
Just bcoz 1 JV of 5th gen PAKFA/FGFA failed doesn't mean we can't try with other nations for 6th gen. And MK2 is just an inflated LCA, 4.5gen not even 5th gen. Which logic r u applying where?
Now it seems Japan joined Tempest program, options running out for us.

In the end what will happen is that All Western nations will be active in 6th gen development, China will suddenly reveal its own 6th gen jet just like it did with 5th gen J-20 & J-35, and we still won't be even talking about 6th gen.
The F22 was inducted in 2005, YF-22 took 1st flight in 1990 but its talk started in late 1970s. This should be learning lesson for us to avoid massive delays & repeat bad history all over.

We face active border threat rn
So we need to quickly fill up
Even if orca gets approval by 2023 it will take atleast 7-8 years to take first flight here we need TDs too unlike tejas mk2 +flight trials and then we have production no matter how much fast you do development it will take around 2035 atleast to enter production by that time IAF will wait?
Orca indeed makes sense for long term but for short term tejas mk2 is necessary.

Why do u think we got S-400? to be placed along northern borders. To stop enemy jets u can deploy strong SAMs also & keep protecting the domestic airspace along with current jets. Pakistan & China have panicked bcoz of our S-400 deal. There is no need for us to panic on MK2 for this reason because border violations can occur now also but MK2 production squad will take till lte 2020s.
For short term i shared videos that current jets are MLUed & new jets are procured + MRCA 2.0 is there.
MK2 is being made bcoz we wanna test our own capability with a canard design. Russia & France won't reveal S/w code & FCS laws used in Rfale & Su-30MKI to us. I'm speculating that MK2 will become LSP & its canard experience will be used for TEDBF & perhaps ORCA too.

 

[SavageKing456]

Why r u connecting 4.5 gen & 6th gen?
Just bcoz 1 JV of 5th gen PAKFA/FGFA failed doesn't mean we can't try with other nations for 6th gen. And MK2 is just an inflated LCA, 4.5gen not even 5th gen. Which logic r u applying where?
Now it seems Japan joined Tempest program, options running out for us.

In the end what will happen is that All Western nations will be active in 6th gen development, China will suddenly reveal its own 6th gen jet just like it did with 5th gen J-20 & J-35, and we still won't be even talking about 6th gen.
The F22 was inducted in 2005, YF-22 took 1st flight in 1990 but its talk started in late 1970s. This should be learning lesson for us to avoid massive delays & repeat bad history all over.

Go ask IAF why they aren't going for jv and for 6th gen aircraft.
it's their choice that they want independent 5th gen program.
There could be numerous reasons
One is IPR.

Why do u think we got S-400? to be placed along northern borders. To stop enemy jets u can deploy strong SAMs also & keep protecting the domestic airspace along with current jets. Pakistan & China have panicked bcoz of our S-400 deal. There is no need for us to panic on MK2 for this reason because border violations can occur now also but MK2 production squad will take till lte 2020s.
For short term i shared videos that current jets are MLUed & new jets are procured + MRCA 2.0 is there.
MK2 is being made bcoz we wanna test our own capability with a canard design. Russia & France won't reveal S/w code & FCS laws used in Rfale & Su-30MKI to us. I'm speculating that MK2 will become LSP & its canard experience will be used for TEDBF & perhaps ORCA too

S400 would be good for defensive purposes
Incase you want to March inside enemy territory let's suppose China you need capable fighters as well.
For Pakistan it's manageable but not w.r.t to China.
Mk2 would come whether you like or not,we cannot force IAF to change decisions.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Go ask IAF why they aren't going for jv and for 6th gen aircraft.
There could be numerous reasons
One is IPR.

S400 would be good for defensive purposes
Incase you want to March inside enemy territory let's suppose China you need capable fighters as well.
For Pakistan it's manageable but not w.r.t to China.
Mk2 would come whether you like or not,we cannot force IAF to change decisions.

For that we have Su-30MKI & Rafale to attck the bases across border.
Who r we to force AF/DRDO/HAL/NAL/ADA?
This is not even a GoI website, just for common citizen fans.
This & other forums are just chat site where we can give our opinions........ to eachother, as if we are discussing with our friends, neighbors, etc

So MK2 will come but i sincerely hope & pray that it remains as LSP & our TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA will manifest a.s.a.p.
I also hope & pray that our future generation of leaders & engineers will create good future genertion of DoD assets & won't repeat 70-90 years of mistakes, corruption, delays.

 

[Covfefe]

LCA Mk2 is coming in sizeable numbers (twin engine jets' operational costs and the related rona-dhona) and it'll be a fairly potent platform.(Gripen E remember anyone?)
TEDBF might get shelved looking at the priorities (don't know how they committed to rolling out three new platforms within a decade, even Boeing and LM won't do that)
ORCA is non existent, no body talks about it- could have been discussed sometime back but twin engine non-stealth 4th gen fighter must have been hard stopped by IAF.
AMCA Mk1 might be the closest thing we get to a stealth fighter by the end of this decade.

 

[Trololo]

ORCA would have happened if TEDBF rolled into service in the next 2 years. But since that is not happening there is every possibility of another 36-72 Rafales coming in and being the last 4th gen twin engine aircraft imported into the IAF fleet. (Barring the 21 MiG 29s)
Our best bet is a large number of LCA Mk2, followed by the AMCA for the IAF. MiG 29, MiG 21, Mirage 2000, and Jaguar would be gone by the end of the 2030s, at which point the earliest Su 30s will also start retiring.
So with the AMCA being the door kicker on the opening day of a conflict, LCA Mk2 and Rafale would be the aircraft that will do most of the heavy lifting once airspace is secured.
Even Mk1 LCA will start to wind down/go into reserve/2nd line from 2040 onwards. And that should be the point where our 6th gen fighter starts its induction phase.

 

[THESIS THORON]

@Bhartiya Sainik , you are suggesting to focus on tedbf/orca and leave mk2, instead of mk2 induct more mk1a

but the problem is that, mk1a unfortunately has taken too long to come and after jacking that jet with all latest things it does not have much upgradebility space left, heck even there is no space for internal ew suit and maws which are highly imp.

And when you consider that these jets will stay in iaf for atleast 3 decades without any integrated ew suit and maws it does not make any sense to order more this kind of jets.

 

[Trololo]

@Bhartiya Sainik , you are suggesting to focus on tedbf/orca and leave mk2, instead of mk2 induct more mk1a

but the problem is that, mk1a unfortunately has taken too long to come and after jacking that jet with all latest things it does not have much upgradebility space left, heck even there is no space for internal ew suit and maws which are highly imp.

And when you consider that these jets will stay in iaf for atleast 3 decades without any integrated ew suit and maws it does not make any sense to order more this kind of jets.

Thats purely IAF's fault for saying that they want an aircraft in the size of the MiG 21 because they didnt want to upgrade their HAS. Else the original spec sheet should have asked for an F16 class fighter to mitigate these problems.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Thats purely IAF's fault for saying that they want an aircraft in the size of the MiG 21 because they didnt want to upgrade their HAS. Else the original spec sheet should have asked for an F16 class fighter to mitigate these problems.

Yes I agree with you bro, I was just giving counter argument to @Bhartiya Sainik for saying that iaf should induct more mk1a and focus on tedbf and amca.

 

[Trololo]

Yes I agree with you bro, I was just giving counter argument to @Bhartiya Sainik for saying that iaf should induct more mk1a and focus on tedbf and amca.

Mk1 and Mk1A orders will end with 123. LCA Mk2 is a must.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@Bhartiya Sainik , you are suggesting to focus on tedbf/orca and leave mk2, instead of mk2 induct more mk1a

but the problem is that, mk1a unfortunately has taken too long to come and after jacking that jet with all latest things it does not have much upgradebility space left, heck even there is no space for internal ew suit and maws which are highly imp.

And when you consider that these jets will stay in iaf for atleast 3 decades without any integrated ew suit and maws it does not make any sense to order more this kind of jets.

So do u think that they r making MK2 to just accomodate MAWS & EW suite? Indirectly ur statement prooves that they wasted our tax payer's money in decades building a senseless jet & still glorifying it?
The reason i opposed MK2 is on condition that it will be inflated duplicate airframe, just like u take image in MSPaint & increase size by say 20%. I don't agree to the airframe design.
But if u look at TEDBF then it looks its airframe shaping has been given some stealth treatment, much better to LCA.
I also didn't know earlier that metal-cutting for MK2 happened in Feb itself. After knowing it in video few hours back, i mentioned that i hope MK2 remains as LSP.

 

[THESIS THORON]

So do u think that they r making MK2 to just accomodate MAWS & EW suite? Indirectly ur statement prooves that they wasted our tax payer's money in decades building a senseless jet & still glorifying it?

so the 2 paras I wrote, you got conclusion that I am saying to waste taxpayers money

and what abt future upgradebility ??
what abt less hardpoint we get in mk1a ??
what abt less range we get in mk1a ??


yeh para padhna bhul gaye the kya ??

And when you consider that these jets will stay in iaf for atleast 3 decades without any integrated ew suit and maws it does not make any sense to order more this kind of jets.

those jets are gonna be in service till 2070s, and you are saying that to induct more such jets which does not have basic thing (considering from future standpoint) like internal ew suit.