AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

IndianHawk

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So we still have nothing concrete regarding FGFA .
Now there are two possibilities
A. govt trying to bargain hard with Russians. It wants IP rights and not just assembly. So negotiation taking time.
B. Govt might jump on f35 bogey while passing time with Russia. IAF has clearly raised doubt about stealth and engine of PAKFA .

If we think About it f35 suits our stealth requirements much better . Pak fa excells in maneuvering and weapons load . But for that we already have a heavy fleet of su 30 mki which are most likely to be upgraded with partial 5th gen techs.

From Russian perspective they can't loose the deal it will not just be a financial blow but also strategic. If they are not primary weapon suppliers to Delhi they hold no leverage in Delhi since economic ties are already weak.
 

kunal1123

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old artical red in br post ....

Ran across this Feb, 2017 article. So, as a FYI:

Aviation Week :: Feb 23, 2017 :: India’s AMCA Fighter Targets Mid-2020s First Flight

BENGALURU, India—Preliminary design of India’s proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will begin in March, with a target of flying the aircraft in 2024 and making it ready for service as early as 2030.

As the defense ministry’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) awaits approval for full-scale development, an upgraded version of the General Electric F414 has become the likely engine for the twin-engine indigenous fighter.

“We have completed the configurations and the feasibility study, and proposed users are happy with them,” says an official involved in the project at ADA. The agency, part of the ministry’s Defense Research and Development Organization, has until now been working on concept design of the AMCA, presented in the form of a model in 2015, by which time the general configuration was frozen.

The decision on whether to launch the program is with the office of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, a defense ministry official says. Saab and Boeing have expressed interest in helping with development. The ADA official says preliminary design will begin in March.

ADA is allowing at least six years between flight testing and entry into service, in part because of its experience in developing the Tejas light fighter, which needed 14 years of flight testing. Experience in verifying Tejas systems will support the shorter period for the AMCA, the ADA official says.

But the schedule is elastic. Although the official says the fighter will fly in seven years and be ready as early as 2030, the clock cannot start running until the government approves program launch. Another program source points out that the duration of flight testing is hard to predict. Further, ADA has shown a timeline that envisions a first flight in 2025 and serial production from 2036. The Lockheed Martin F-35A needed nine years of flight testing before it became initially operational.

The engine will be chosen soon, the ADA official says, giving no specific date. The choices are the Eurojet EJ200 of the Eurofighter Typhoon, Safran M88 of the Dassault Rafale, and the GE F414, used in the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, KF-X, Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen and the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) Tejas Mk. 2.

ADA sees advantages in choosing the F414, the official says, without elaborating. Two are obvious: experience working with GE in the Tejas program and the F414’s thrust.

ADA says the AMCA needs an engine of 110 kN (24,700 lb.), well above the ratings of the EJ200 and M88. The F414-404, installed in the Super Hornet, generates 22,000 lb. of thrust, but GE is offering an enhanced F414 that it says is in the 26,000-lb. class. GE also has remarkably rich experience in integrating the F414 and its predecessor, the F404, in different airframes.

Like most modern fighters, the AMCA will be a multi-role aircraft. Although it will be shaped for stealth, a non-stealthy version has also been planned. Features will include a weapons bay, serpentine engine intakes, thrust vectoring, modular avionics, integrated aircraft health management, and a radar with an active electronically scanning array using gallium-nitride technology. The aircraft is intended to fly supersonically without afterburning.

ADA proposes that AMCA will replace the Mirage 2000 fighter and Jaguar strike aircraft in Indian air force service. A carrier-borne version is also proposed. AMCA design work began informally in 2008 and became official in 2011.

The configuration has features that have become familiar on stealth fighters: apart from the weapon bay, these features include fuselage faceting, canted twin tail fins, edge alignment, and a forward-swept trailing edge of the main plane.

`“Everyone’s stealth fighter looks the same,” says an engineer who is in charge of designing another.
 

Vijyes

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  • That scale of manufacturing was for a World War, where entire national economies, in fact the entire global economy was geared towards war. All industries stopped making their usual stuff and contributed to the war effort on their respective sides. This was also necessary because of the much lesser footprint and technological complexity clubbed together with high attrition rates.
  • We are not likely to see a World war. We are much more likely to see a limited war. National Security risks and expenditure to stave these risks off need to be balanced by using probability. There is no such thing as 100% protection. When you take insurance, you calculate risks and choose a plan according to your paying capacity. Armed Forces budget is a similar exercise when considering National spending.
  • 100 planes is as good as shit? Even the capabilities of a single fighter today are beyond astonishing, especially so if you compare them to a, say, squadron of WW-II era fighters.
  • 10000? Are you sure you did not add too many zeroes there? Even the USA does not have that many "4th and 5th generation planes and choppers". In fact their entire military aircraft fleet is around that number.
  • Anything less than that is useless? So basically all the Air Forces in this world are garbage, because they do not even come close to that number.
  • I can understand if you are pissed about us buying just 100 planes, but 100 is a big number, and if the plane delivers, the numbers could climb.
Returning to Earth:-

Go cry about that in PAK-FA thread.

Returning to AMCA:-

  • If we are serious about building a good 5th gen plane with a large share of indigenous components, 2030 first flight is reasonable.
  • Developed countries do not have smarter people per se. They have smarter organisations, that have decades of experience. You seem to underestimate how much experience is a factor in engineering.
  • Apart from past experience, their current education systems and research ecosystem is decades ahead of ours. The US has a knowledge-based economy. Even the Chinese have a larger research ecosystem than we do. This is the prerequisite for technology creation. This is our Achilles heel.
  • Tejas experience is definitely not worth nothing. But it is certainly not everything. Consider for how long US and Russia have been learning from their experiences after designing their 4th generation aircraft.
  • Its not only serpentine intakes. See my previous reply for a not-so-exhaustive list on what all is needed.
  • AMCA will be modular, but without basic design frozen, not much can be achieved in way of design of components. Research on these is being carried out though.
  • Mass manufacturing would begin in or after 2035. Mark my words.
Do you realise that your whole premise of there will be no world war is your made up assumption? With what evidence do you say such things? What is limited war? Lol! You don't seem to understand the point of war, especially Jihad and Dharma Yuddha (against Islam). There is no limited war but genocide of the highest possible extent with winner takes all. It is the true Kalki war that will destroy the whole world. Yes, that will be world war 3. In Islam they call it Judgement day and in Bible, they call it Armageddon.

We may be actually nearing Kalki war, as far as I see. Also, Islam is indeed the most truest form of evil ever to be seen on earth. It is a wonder how come anyone be so evil at all.

If you really don't think there is no chance of WW3, then why are you recommending any planes at all. Either have lots of planes or have none. Why even bother to have any plane at all? What is your definition of limited war in the first place? Is it some retarded war where you drop 1 bomb and run away? Why do you think anyone would do that? Why do you think the opponent won't retaliate with 2 bombs and result in a chain of retaliation resulting in missile strikes and nukes?

Yes, if you assume that the airforce of the countries won't enhance the number of planes, lot of countries are garbage. As I said, people only have planes now for limited strikes and not world war 3 as it has 25 years left. The current planes serve to train pilots and bomb the devils of middle east who have shitty technology and no technological base. Moreover, with today's missiles, the first salvo will always be missile based and will be struck hard.

So many countries like Germany, France, Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan, Korea, Iran are now trying to build 5th generation planes for a reason. Everyone wants to have technology for mass production. Only mentally retarded people seek imported planes in 100-150!!! USA has fighter aircrafts and choppers numbering over 10000. The number of aircrafts itself is 7000-8000 and number of choppers is over 4000 if we include all army, navy and airforce

Next, about 5th generation planes: USA and Russia made 4th generation planes in 1980 itself and F22 by 1989-90. We got lucky that after 1990, computation power increased so drastically that many of the items they did got easier to replicate. Also, the 1990+ designs were mostly electronics based which is all about coding and India is strong in that field. So, the coding experience of Indians is sufficient enough. I agree that everything is not that easy, but one should understand that India is going for offsets and ToT to quicken things. Our engine was completed by 75% and we made a deal with France to help complete the rest instead of delaying it. We are developing GaN AESA radar with a foreign partner, probably Israel to improve upon UTTAM. We have asked for several ToT from france regarding RAM paint etc too. We have designed the PAK-FA with Russia at a cost of Rs 1500 crores which can again be improved upon.

The AMCA is being slightly delayed due to work load of Tejas Mk2 development. Otherwise, AMCA is going well on track. Also, in the coming years, significant focus will be on defence industry and budget will be raised. It is true that the AMCA is complicated. But, 2030 should be reasonable.

The argument that Chinese are better is not very meaningful as they don't get the chance to reverse engineer like we do. We are given lot of technology from allies like engine, seekers (BVR, brahmos etc) and many codevelopment opportunity in radars. USA definitely has better capability but that does not mean India can't catch up, especially when USA technology has stagnated. The whole point of technology is that there is a limit for progress and after certain extent, human brain reaches its limits and isn't able to think further and hence technology stagnates. USA technology has stagnated significantly since 1990s and the latest technology are all electronics based like miniaturisation, better coding and control oriented rather than based on true advancement of physics and science. That is the whole point about stagnation and my idea of catching up with technology.
 

IndianHawk

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So many countries like Germany, France, Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan, Korea, Iran are now trying to build 5th generation planes for a reason. Everyone wants to have technology for mass production. Only mentally retarded people seek imported planes in 100-150!!! USA has fighter aircrafts and choppers numbering over 10000. The number of aircrafts itself is 7000-8000 and number of choppers is over 4000 if we include all army, navy and airforce
You are forgetting the cost penalty here. The plane that were made in world war 2 were not very costly , used mostly simple metal and simple alloys .

That is why they could be produced in such numbers. Today 4 and 5 th generation fighters are quite complex . They require specialized alloys , composits , advanced avionics , radars , advanced munitions and missiles. They cost a bomb to make.

They could bankrupt nations. USA could not commit to more than 200 f22. Despite being the greatest economy on earth.

Even in case of world wide war it will be missiles that will be produced in 1000 s not aircrafts.

Anyway is the ideal is pure destruction a missile with nukes is the best thing .
 

Suryavanshi

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1000 planes dang man this many planes are not needed.
There's a reason why we have aircraft carrier, Warplanes would fly several sorties to enemy area and will be reloaded on carrier's.
 

Vijyes

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You are forgetting the cost penalty here. The plane that were made in world war 2 were not very costly , used mostly simple metal and simple alloys .

That is why they could be produced in such numbers. Today 4 and 5 th generation fighters are quite complex . They require specialized alloys , composits , advanced avionics , radars , advanced munitions and missiles. They cost a bomb to make.

They could bankrupt nations. USA could not commit to more than 200 f22. Despite being the greatest economy on earth.

Even in case of world wide war it will be missiles that will be produced in 1000 s not aircrafts.

Anyway is the ideal is pure destruction a missile with nukes is the best thing .

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Missiles will be the ones to be mass produced rather than planes. Even then, in wars, expecting spare parts from foreign countries is a big deal. So, the small number of 5th gen will be useless soon. There is not enough nukes to destroy everything and hence precision bombing or air defences and infrastructure will also be needed.

I agree that 1lakh+ production is not feasible but in war the costs will be no bar. The industries may even be nationalised and production continued by paying mere basic salary to workers and some slogans and pride. USA plans to produce over 3000 F35 in next 10 years. So, such kind of mass production is possible. And during war, the scale will only be too severe. Don't forget that we have population of 1.35 billion and hindus (sikhs, jains, buddhists and nepalis included) alone will be 1.5 billion by 2045-50. We also have over 1 crore talented people living abroad and a few crore smart people within India working in various private sector. We can simply divert all these people into production with some training. The technology part is hard but once technology is found, the mass replication is only a matter of production ad assembling. Being 4.5 and 5th generation planes, it will be complex but still 10k+ numbers should be doable as it has been shown by US(F16, F/A18 and F35 production) or Russia (Su30 and Su35 production)
 

SanjeevM

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With the existing technology finish off Tejas orders in a year. From the lessons learnt, you can estimate how many can you build fast in case of a war.

Major constraint is availability of engines in large numbers. Unless that part of puzzle is solved in terms of Kaveri, large numbers are just dream.
 

Rahul Singh

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With Both FGFA and AMCA failing to take off, India’s 5th Gen Fighter Projects looks rudderless
That's because of we on two horses at the same time. Which is not FGFA and AMCA but whether to get it done from outside or do it ourselves? Russians need money for PAK-FA so they will keep pressing and import loving IAF will keep bending even if it is not happy with the technical parameters of it. On another side, there are ample reasons for the defence industry to go entirely for AMCA and Ghatak (for strike). Firstly Tejas experience and American engine. Whatever electronics which we can not source locally can be bought from Isreal(mostly).

So where the reason for going to two different platforms in 5g category? The delay in the realisation of the fighter is still an issue but the prime reason for it is indecision.
 

smestarz

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There are some facts here
a) PAKFA should be flying with the item 30 engine, late this year or early next year
b) AMCA is still in concept, only design is frozen, the first flight expected say 2030 ..
c) Today is 2017 and China is flying 5th Gen J-20

Now with these facts in mind, you think we can rely from say 2017-2035 thats almost 2 decades on Su-30 MKI, MiG-29 and Rafale ? If yes then its best to focus on AMCA. If not, We have to go for PAKFA/FGFA.

Even for F-35 there is a big queue,, so our options get limited,

We can help AMCA project by say talking with japan about jointly developing with them, they are also developing a 5th Gen plane, and if we find common ground, it can help as then we get 2 different 5th Gen planes in limited nos of course and having two different countries and technologies, and then based on our experience we can develop alliance/Friendship with one who offers better support.


That's because of we on two horses at the same time. Which is not FGFA and AMCA but whether to get it done from outside or do it ourselves? Russians need money for PAK-FA so they will keep pressing and import loving IAF will keep bending even if it is not happy with the technical parameters of it. On another side, there are ample reasons for the defence industry to go entirely for AMCA and Ghatak (for strike). Firstly Tejas experience and American engine. Whatever electronics which we can not source locally can be bought from Isreal(mostly).

So where the reason for going to two different platforms in 5g category? The delay in the realisation of the fighter is still an issue but the prime reason for it is indecision.
 

Vijyes

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There are some facts here
a) PAKFA should be flying with the item 30 engine, late this year or early next year
b) AMCA is still in concept, only design is frozen, the first flight expected say 2030 ..
c) Today is 2017 and China is flying 5th Gen J-20

Now with these facts in mind, you think we can rely from say 2017-2035 thats almost 2 decades on Su-30 MKI, MiG-29 and Rafale ? If yes then its best to focus on AMCA. If not, We have to go for PAKFA/FGFA.

Even for F-35 there is a big queue,, so our options get limited,

We can help AMCA project by say talking with japan about jointly developing with them, they are also developing a 5th Gen plane, and if we find common ground, it can help as then we get 2 different 5th Gen planes in limited nos of course and having two different countries and technologies, and then based on our experience we can develop alliance/Friendship with one who offers better support.
PAK-FA is too bulky and not stealthy. Buying it is absurd waste. Moreover, Russian engines are shit
 

TPFscopes

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So many countries like Germany, France, Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan, Korea, Iran are now trying to build 5th generation planes for a reason.
Mr. Yechuri, as I said before that don't try to prove yourself a Retard.

1. Pakistan didn't have a suitable budget to sustain even a 4th gen jet Program on their own.
2. Germany & France already skipping 5th generation, now they are trying to design a 6th generation jet jointly.
3. Don't be more stupid by calling a demand for 10,000 Aircrafts again and again.
4. I request you to wake up and smell some coffee, & please don't day dreaming.

Good day
 

TPFscopes

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PAK-FA is too bulky and not stealthy. Buying it is absurd waste. Moreover, Russian engines are shit
You mean we have a large fleet of jets in our air force and Navy with failed Engines. Also please elaborate the digital STEALTH requirements.
Otherwise I will not hesitate to call you a "CHUTIYA"
 

Adioz

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Do you realise that your whole premise of there will be no world war is your made up assumption? With what evidence do you say such things? What is limited war? Lol! You don't seem to understand the point of war, especially Jihad and Dharma Yuddha (against Islam). There is no limited war but genocide of the highest possible extent with winner takes all. It is the true Kalki war that will destroy the whole world. Yes, that will be world war 3. In Islam they call it Judgement day and in Bible, they call it Armageddon.

We may be actually nearing Kalki war, as far as I see. Also, Islam is indeed the most truest form of evil ever to be seen on earth. It is a wonder how come anyone be so evil at all.
My assumption is not just mine alone. And it has logic behind it.
I gave up on religious predictions of a future Armageddon a long time ago. Even gave up on religion some time ago. My aim is to ensure humanity prospers. I am a patriot because it does not conflict with my primary aim, and it most certainly never will, since the idea of India agrees with my hopes and dreams for mankind's future. I used to be like you (had exactly these same views) while I was growing up. But I found that experts on the subject had thoughts that rubbished mine. I kept an open mind and learnt from those. And then I came to understand why I was wrong and how does this world works (although nobody has exhaustive knowledge on this, humans do have a general idea-this is part of my theory of systems). I hope that in time you will learn to empathize with the world view of intellectuals, not those of long dead clergy. Why the hell are we discussing this on AMCA thread anyways?

If you really don't think there is no chance of WW3, then why are you recommending any planes at all. Either have lots of planes or have none. Why even bother to have any plane at all? What is your definition of limited war in the first place? Is it some retarded war where you drop 1 bomb and run away? Why do you think anyone would do that? Why do you think the opponent won't retaliate with 2 bombs and result in a chain of retaliation resulting in missile strikes and nukes?

Yes, if you assume that the airforce of the countries won't enhance the number of planes, lot of countries are garbage. As I said, people only have planes now for limited strikes and not world war 3 as it has 25 years left. The current planes serve to train pilots and bomb the devils of middle east who have shitty technology and no technological base. Moreover, with today's missiles, the first salvo will always be missile based and will be struck hard.
  1. What makes you think that 100 planes is not a lot and 10000 is? Pulled that number from history? WW-II? Is this the 1940s?
  2. War is what is retarded. Militaries are to wage war when deterrence fails. Deterrance fails due to the inability of the human race to resolve its conflicts peacefully. That happens due to a primitive human emotion called fear. Anybody who thinks that using force to resolve an impasse should be the first choice is who is retarded.
  3. In your language, "Limited strikes" is what I mean by limited war. I am not going to spoon-feed you elaborate explanations of well established definitions. Use your head and google it. Armies of today, unlike those of the past, have number of escalation controls built-into them. Part of this is due to the notable absence of an overwhelming fog of war. Want to understand limited war? Understand modern diplomacy first.
So many countries like Germany, France, Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan, Korea, Iran are now trying to build 5th generation planes for a reason. Everyone wants to have technology for mass production. Only mentally retarded people seek imported planes in 100-150!!! USA has fighter aircrafts and choppers numbering over 10000. The number of aircrafts itself is 7000-8000 and number of choppers is over 4000 if we include all army, navy and airforce
  1. Mass production in modern technology terms does include 100-200 high-tech aircraft.
  2. Recheck the number of "4th and 5th gen fighters and choppers" in service with the US. Its well below 10000.
  3. If those people who are seeking to "import" 100-150 fighters are mentally retarded (even though they are MUCH more qualified than a keyboard warrior like you), what does that make you?

Also, the 1990+ designs were mostly electronics based which is all about coding and India is strong in that field. So, the coding experience of Indians is sufficient enough.


The AMCA is being slightly delayed due to work load of Tejas Mk2 development. Otherwise, AMCA is going well on track. Also, in the coming years, significant focus will be on defence industry and budget will be raised. It is true that the AMCA is complicated. But, 2030 should be reasonable.
Lets see when AMCA comes out: 2030 first flight (my expectation could be wrong) or 2030 FOC (I wish, but it most likely will not happen)



The argument that Chinese are better is not very meaningful as they don't get the chance to reverse engineer like we do. We are given lot of technology from allies like engine, seekers (BVR, brahmos etc) and many codevelopment opportunity in radars. USA definitely has better capability but that does not mean India can't catch up, especially when USA technology has stagnated. The whole point of technology is that there is a limit for progress and after certain extent, human brain reaches its limits and isn't able to think further and hence technology stagnates. USA technology has stagnated significantly since 1990s and the latest technology are all electronics based like miniaturisation, better coding and control oriented rather than based on true advancement of physics and science. That is the whole point about stagnation and my idea of catching up with technology.
  • Research is not about just reverse engineering stuff. And reverse engineering entails a large amount of research as well. The Chinese are further ahead of us, and that is a fact. We might be ahead of them in some areas, but they have a better research ecosystem, this is an established fact. Look at the number and quality of research papers they dish out.
  • USA tech has definitely NOT stagnated. They are a knowledge-based economy. They thrive on research. And dont underestimate the human brain. There is NO LIMIT to research. There is no barrier. Its just that new tech creation is slower than catch-up tech creation.
  • Its true that the major recent trend in technology is towards miniaturization. But miniaturisation is certainly NOT about coding. And its not only about electronics. Google MEMS (Microelectromechanical Systems), Focused Ion Beam Machining, nanotechnology, smart materials..........
  • The idea of catch-up growth entails leapfrogging, learning from the mistakes of other countries and to use technology of the future (created by advanced nations) for making stuff of the present (which advanced nations of today did without, in the past). Catch-up growth allows developing countries to bridge tech-gap faster than developed countries can create new tech to maintain that gap. So the gap almost closes eventually.
  • And its not that India cannot ever catch up. Its just that it will take time, and China will reach that target before we do. Yet there are some areas like thorium fuel where we are ahead of all countries on the planet.



@Adioz appreciate the roast but you have got a point wrong which a "defense-nazi" (if that's even a thing?) like me can't ignore. :biggrin2:

You mentioned that in WW2 2nd generation fighters were used. In truth, the generation system only applies to jet fighters. Hence the 1st generation of fighters were the jet fighters which originated after WW2 such as the Mig-15 or the F-86 Sabre. The earliest 1st gen. fighter perhaps is the Me-262.

Hence any other fighter aircraft of the WW2 and WW1 eras are not in the generation system and are classified as pre-1st gen.

So for example, the Gen. system for the Mig family goes like the following:

1st Gen. - Mig-15/17
2nd Gen. - Mig-19/21
3rd Gen. - Mig-23/25
4th Gen. - Mig-29/31
4++ Gen. - Mig-35
5th Gen. - lol no money
Thanks for the info, never really thought to do a read up on what each generation of aircraft had. I would not call you a "Defence Nazi" though, you did not gas me to death for that error (Had no idea that there was something called a Defence Nazi).:laugh:

1000 planes dang man this many planes are not needed.
There's a reason why we have aircraft carrier, Warplanes would fly several sorties to enemy area and will be reloaded on carrier's.
He did not say 1000. He said 10000. :sad:
 

Vijyes

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My assumption is not just mine alone. And it has logic behind it.
I gave up on religious predictions of a future Armageddon a long time ago. Even gave up on religion some time ago. My aim is to ensure humanity prospers. I am a patriot because it does not conflict with my primary aim, and it most certainly never will, since the idea of India agrees with my hopes and dreams for mankind's future. I used to be like you (had exactly these same views) while I was growing up. But I found that experts on the subject had thoughts that rubbished mine. I kept an open mind and learnt from those. And then I came to understand why I was wrong and how does this world works (although nobody has exhaustive knowledge on this, humans do have a general idea-this is part of my theory of systems). I hope that in time you will learn to empathize with the world view of intellectuals, not those of long dead clergy. Why the hell are we discussing this on AMCA thread anyways?


  1. What makes you think that 100 planes is not a lot and 10000 is? Pulled that number from history? WW-II? Is this the 1940s?
  2. War is what is retarded. Militaries are to wage war when deterrence fails. Deterrance fails due to the inability of the human race to resolve its conflicts peacefully. That happens due to a primitive human emotion called fear. Anybody who thinks that using force to resolve an impasse should be the first choice is who is retarded.
  3. In your language, "Limited strikes" is what I mean by limited war. I am not going to spoon-feed you elaborate explanations of well established definitions. Use your head and google it. Armies of today, unlike those of the past, have number of escalation controls built-into them. Part of this is due to the notable absence of an overwhelming fog of war. Want to understand limited war? Understand modern diplomacy first.

  1. Mass production in modern technology terms does include 100-200 high-tech aircraft.
  2. Recheck the number of "4th and 5th gen fighters and choppers" in service with the US. Its well below 10000.
  3. If those people who are seeking to "import" 100-150 fighters are mentally retarded (even though they are MUCH more qualified than a keyboard warrior like you), what does that make you?





Lets see when AMCA comes out: 2030 first flight (my expectation could be wrong) or 2030 FOC (I wish, but it most likely will not happen)




  • Research is not about just reverse engineering stuff. And reverse engineering entails a large amount of research as well. The Chinese are further ahead of us, and that is a fact. We might be ahead of them in some areas, but they have a better research ecosystem, this is an established fact. Look at the number and quality of research papers they dish out.
  • USA tech has definitely NOT stagnated. They are a knowledge-based economy. They thrive on research. And dont underestimate the human brain. There is NO LIMIT to research. There is no barrier. Its just that new tech creation is slower than catch-up tech creation.
  • Its true that the major recent trend in technology is towards miniaturization. But miniaturisation is certainly NOT about coding. And its not only about electronics. Google MEMS (Microelectromechanical Systems), Focused Ion Beam Machining, nanotechnology, smart materials..........
  • The idea of catch-up growth entails leapfrogging, learning from the mistakes of other countries and to use technology of the future (created by advanced nations) for making stuff of the present (which advanced nations of today did without, in the past). Catch-up growth allows developing countries to bridge tech-gap faster than developed countries can create new tech to maintain that gap. So the gap almost closes eventually.
  • And its not that India cannot ever catch up. Its just that it will take time, and China will reach that target before we do. Yet there are some areas like thorium fuel where we are ahead of all countries on the planet.




Thanks for the info, never really thought to do a read up on what each generation of aircraft had. I would not call you a "Defence Nazi" though, you did not gas me to death for that error (Had no idea that there was something called a Defence Nazi).:laugh:


He did not say 1000. He said 10000. :sad:

You like it or not, the original beliefs of yours was correct. I didn't believe in prophecy but now I have found enough evidence to speak of end of world.

Also, an assumption of yours that ther won't be any WW3 is based on your whims and words of mentally unsound people with high arrogance and attitude. The true intellectuals are those who explain things in absolute terms from the bottom most level of what is life and how things work.

Ask these intellectuals to start their great progress from Andaman island without imports. They will then understand life more properly. Sitting in AC room and speaking doesn't make a person intellectual. That person doesn't even know how to make AC which he is enjoying.

Simply put, when you start respecting nature abd trying to be a full survivalist capable of making all then things from scratch, will you realise the meaning and point of life. It is only after the holistic understanding of the world from scratch and the ability to build or make things we use from scratch, will we ever be deemed as intellectual.

Now, coming back to your 100 planes, why do you need them at all? Why can't you even assume here that there will be no war and these planes will eventually get replaced and only end up ad waste?

You appear to be of the retarded kind that doesn't differentiate between right and peace. The reality of emotions, natural laws, psychology, harmful events like earthquake, flood, landslides which may leave children orphaned etc are all real life events. When you did not create the world, you are not the one to set rules according to your convenience.

Truth is all about understanding nature including people and their laws including psychological and social laws and gaining ability to Manipulate it. Force is not just about brute use of power but use of the knowledge gained by understanding nature.

Even human emotions are part of nature and is something that cannot be controlled fully even by man. Just like earthquake can strike anytime, some supernatural powers can change the emotions en masse. It is said that on full Moon and new moon day, insane people get more vigorous and more irritated. Why? What has moon got to do with human emotions? Why Jyotishya works if everything is just about Maths and physics? These are the questions one must answer to call himself intellectual. Diplomacy works only when people are reasonable and/or want to avoid war. If people find war to be cheaper or are insane, there won't be diplomacy.

Next, coming to fighter jet imports, there can either be 2 cases - war or no war. War means full war and no war means no war. If there is war, we need maximum numbers of planes. If there is no war we need no plane.

You are not a patriot but a retard unless you can answer these questions-
1. What is a nation?
2. What is the need of a nation? Why not have stateless world?
3. How does a nation work to satisfy its needs?
4. How to ensure that nation work in that way?
5. How to react if the nation doesn't work that way?
6. What are one's duty towards nation and why should one follow such duties?

Be absolute in your answers.
 

Vijyes

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You mean we have a large fleet of jets in our air force and Navy with failed Engines. Also please elaborate the digital STEALTH requirements.
Otherwise I will not hesitate to call you a "CHUTIYA"
Yes the serviceability of Russian jets are 50% while overall serviceability of Indian jets are 55%. The serviceability of other jets like Mirage seem to be 70%. Su30 engines and MiG 21 engines are notoriously hopeless. I am not sure of Mig29 used in Navy.

I wouldn't want to buy Russian planes with such poor track record. I am not ready to simply believe that a new engine all of a sudden of highest quality will be made by Russia which will be flawless. In fact, a prototype of T50 (PAK-FA) even had caught fire and partially burnt during flight testing.

Don't be a chutiya fanboy of Russia and analyse the track record. Considering the track record of Russia, I would ask for successful flying record of at least 5-7 years for PAK-FA before it can be considered reliable.
 

TPFscopes

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Yes the serviceability of Russian jets are 50% while overall serviceability of Indian jets are 55%. The servicDoility of other jets like Mirage seem to be 70%. Su30 engines and MiG 21 engines are notoriously hopeless. I am not sure of Mig29 used in Navy.

I wouldn't want to buy Russian planes with such poor track record. I am not ready to simply believe that a new engine all of a sudden of highest quality will be made by Russia which will be flawless. In fact, a prototype of T50 (PAK-FA) even had caught fire and partially burnt during flight testing.

Don't be a chutiya fanboy of Russia and analyse the track record. Considering the track record of Russia, I would ask for successful flying record of at least 5-7 years for PAK-FA before it can be considered reliable.
Dude, every Airforce maintenance their inventory and jets as per requirement. No Airforce keep their all jets in war Ready condition during peace time.
So, make some sensible Comment with some research.
 

Vijyes

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Dude, every Airforce maintenance their inventory and jets as per requirement. No Airforce keep their all jets in war Ready condition during peace time.
So, make some sensible Comment with some research.
The difference between peace and war is 1-2 days. Keeping it in inventory is something I understand. But what I am saying is that the serviceability of planes itself is low and not the usage. In peacetime, usage is low and planes are in inventory. But not being serviceable means that the planes can't be used and needs repair work to become serviceable.
 

TPFscopes

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The difference between peace and war is 1-2 days. Keeping it in inventory is something I understand. But what I am saying is that the serviceability of planes itself is low and not the usage. In peacetime, usage is low and planes are in inventory. But not being serviceable means that the planes can't be used and needs repair work to become serviceable.
I'm also talking about Serviceability. Presently french air force's RAFALEs have only 48% of serviceability but it doesn't mean that they can't achieve the Serviceability upto or above 90%.

Our Su-30MKI have peak Serviceability of 79% but right now IAF maintain them between 65-70% and can raise it to 80% easily.

But I can bet on it that you can't understand these facts with your biased spirit.
 

Rahul Singh

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There are some facts here
a) PAKFA should be flying with the item 30 engine, late this year or early next year
b) AMCA is still in concept, only design is frozen, the first flight expected say 2030 ..
c) Today is 2017 and China is flying 5th Gen J-20

Now with these facts in mind, you think we can rely from say 2017-2035 thats almost 2 decades on Su-30 MKI, MiG-29 and Rafale ? If yes then its best to focus on AMCA. If not, We have to go for PAKFA/FGFA.

Even for F-35 there is a big queue,, so our options get limited,

We can help AMCA project by say talking with japan about jointly developing with them, they are also developing a 5th Gen plane, and if we find common ground, it can help as then we get 2 different 5th Gen planes in limited nos of course and having two different countries and technologies, and then based on our experience we can develop alliance/Friendship with one who offers better support.
The Same logic is being peddled for the last 6 years. That's one-third of the time it usually takes to induct IOC version of any fighter jet. And this was the whole point.

We don't know how long it will take to complete negotiations and get the first batch of Indian PAK-FA aka FGFA. For reference, M-MRCA process started in 2005 and was partially concluded 10 years later (4 years were consumed just on negotiation table). To conclude it fully, it will at least take couple more considering F-16 production starts in a couple of years. That's very very ambitious timeline given the track record and proposed terms of the contract. That's 14-15 years from the official beginning of M-MRCA saga. That's 80% of the time it takes a fighter to move to induction in IOC configuration.

Now to PAK-FA. PAK-FA first flew in 2010. And we are talking about joint collaborations with Russians on it for at least couple of years before first flight took place. So at least 8-10 years have passed since talks began. But where are we? Nowhere! IAF is extremely suspicious of technical parameters of FGFA and government is bend on 100% TOT which Russians are hell bent on not giving. So when first FGFA is expected in IAF? You guess!

These are some real hard facts about meeting your requirements through imports. You delay and ultimately kill an indigenous product in the name of "Immediate requirements" and deals for meeting those "immediate requirements' are concluded on average in a time period which is longer than it would have taken to develop one indigenously.

AMCA is waiting on the table for at least 9 years now. All because someone wants to prioritise funds towards first M-MRCA (which is yet to conclude) second to FGFA (which is still nowhere).

Now another spanner has been thrown. NAVY which has bought Mig-29s not long ago, made a repeat order, yet to fly Mig-29s for one-third of its life has now decided to go for entirely new 4 gen M-MRCA for a carrier which is still not ready on papers. Besides, as soon as Chinese navy stars flying its own 5g fighters from carriers (expected soon) what will happen to those freshly bought Naval fighters? Will Navy dump them also and go for another fighter in the name of "Immediate Requirements"?

Given the inexperience, ideally, AMCA should be developed as a semi-stealth fighter in it IOC avatar and remain so until completion of the first batch. Later versions should see the introduction of stealth features in a progressive manner. If government and stakeholders prioritise AMCA and Ghatak today, first flight could happen earlier than expected (as of today) and so does its induction. However, it will be 10-12 later than our prime adversary, still surer way of having a 5g figher in comparision to FGFA or any.
 

IndianHawk

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Yes, you are absolutely correct. Missiles will be the ones to be mass produced rather than planes. Even then, in wars, expecting spare parts from foreign countries is a big deal. So, the small number of 5th gen will be useless soon. There is not enough nukes to destroy everything and hence precision bombing or air defences and infrastructure will also be needed.

I agree that 1lakh+ production is not feasible but in war the costs will be no bar. The industries may even be nationalised and production continued by paying mere basic salary to workers and some slogans and pride. USA plans to produce over 3000 F35 in next 10 years. So, such kind of mass production is possible. And during war, the scale will only be too severe. Don't forget that we have population of 1.35 billion and hindus (sikhs, jains, buddhists and nepalis included) alone will be 1.5 billion by 2045-50. We also have over 1 crore talented people living abroad and a few crore smart people within India working in various private sector. We can simply divert all these people into production with some training. The technology part is hard but once technology is found, the mass replication is only a matter of production ad assembling. Being 4.5 and 5th generation planes, it will be complex but still 10k+ numbers should be doable as it has been shown by US(F16, F/A18 and F35 production) or Russia (Su30 and Su35 production)
It's not just the cost. Today highly sophisticated parts require long time spans to be prepared. We are not yet capable of producing 8 LCA per year despite being third largest economy on earth and 6 th largest manufacturing nation.

Basically unless you have industrial scale of USA or china you can't produce 1000 4th or 5th gen jet even in war . Even if you pour billions at it still it requires time for processing raw material , testing individual components , integrating so many systems.

The only way to achieve the number is to compromise on functions and again produce bare bone aircrafts . Then again missiles are better options.

If you would look at attrition rate of second world war airforce you would conclude that majority of fighter aircrafts were indeed used only for one way trip (whether deliberately or accidentally). And that is why missiles were preferred later.
 

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