AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[TPFscopes]

The AURA program was most likely a exercise in capability demonstration and not an actual UCAV development program.
It was a case study to examine whether ADA/DRDO/HAL had the capability to develop a UCAV or not.
The AURA program is said to have been completed and the information from the program will be applied to the development of the Ghatak Stealth UCAV.

Yup, AURA is only a Technological Demonstrator.
Demonstrated tech will be refined and incorporated with GHATAK UCAV

 

[TPFscopes]

The AURA program was most likely a exercise in capability demonstration and not an actual UCAV development program.
It was a case study to examine whether ADA/DRDO/HAL had the capability to develop a UCAV or not.
The AURA program is said to have been completed and the information from the program will be applied to the development of the Ghatak Stealth UCAV.

Yup, AURA is only a Technological Demonstrator.
Demonstrated tech will be refined and incorporated with GHATAK UCAV

 

[smestarz]

HAL is assembling the engine you mean.. but AL-31 also ends up being a fuel guzzler, AL-41 which is used in Su-35 has better fuel economy, higher thrust and better TWR,. Item 30 will have better thrust, and fuel economy than AL-41.. so you see

Item-30 will have very high output Compared to the requirements of AMCA. It also need to prove itself.
Presently HAL has licence production of AL-31 which is still have higher thurst than the required thurst for AMCA.

 

[sthf]

We don't need Pak-Fa for Chinese border. Rafale along with good air defence system will take care of Chinese threat until AMCA arrives. Remember China doesn't have proper 5th gen plane. All they have is a paper tiger.

Paper tiger or not, IAF will & should not wait to find it out. Rafale according to IAF is a "medium weight, strike optimized" platform to tackle Chinese infrastructure on LAC.

 

[TPFscopes]

HAL is assembling the engine you mean.. but AL-31 also ends up being a fuel guzzler, AL-41 which is used in Su-35 has better fuel economy, higher thrust and better TWR,. Item 30 will have better thrust, and fuel economy than AL-41.. so you see

Item 30 has proposed max thurst of 167 KN and weighs around 1500+ kgs.
Hence it'll not be selected for AMCA.

 

[Chinmoy]

PARTY.........................................................................................................................................................................

Kuch toh sharam ki hoti............. Banda suicide karne jaa raha hain, aur tum ho ki party maang rahe ho?????

 

[Chinmoy]

Zindagi hichkole de rahi hai, bhabhi la raha hu teri.

............. Congratulations.......

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Paper tiger or not, IAF will & should not wait to find it out. Rafale according to IAF is a "medium weight, strike optimized" platform to tackle Chinese infrastructure on LAC.

We already have SU-30 for air superiority role. So we are covered on that front. Lets focus on upgrading our Sukhoi fleet to super Sukhoi standards. No need to spend money on Pak Fa. At least with FGFA we were getting our hands on some Russian tech(that might've been useful for AMCA) but buying Pak-Fa straight from Russia will get us nothing.

Rafale is a capable multi-role, network centric fighter with modern data link, that outclasses anything we have in our neighbourhood. Rafale is combat proven, reliable platform. What is combat experience of Chini 5th gen jet, even Pak-Fa is a paper tiger at this point. It will take many years to get item-30 engine and many years after that for FOC and many years after that for production to complete. Pak-Fa is no way a stop gap solution.

We already bought 36 Rafale so it makes sense to buy more, also Rafale-M could be IN's choice. A joint order between IAF and IA makes lot of sense.

When it comes to technology Rafael is way ahead of anything China has in their inventory. Even better than SU-35 or Eurofighter. There is a reason why IAF is so desperate for this jet. Only issue that is holding back the deal is price and TOT. Talking about price, PAK-FA isn't cheap either. Russia is pressing us to buy big numbers while they themselves are only buying one squad. In other words they want us to bare all development and production cost of the plane.

Geopolitically speaking, China is now officially Russia's closest ally. Do you think in time of was Russia will let us use Pak-Fa against their closest ally? Do you think we will get spares for Pak-Fa from Russia if big brother China says no? This isn't 1971, Russia's fossil fuel driven economy is now heavily reliant on China's big market. Some reports even indicate that China is acting more like big brother to Russia. From now on we should be very careful when dealing with Russians.

I hope this makes everything clear. Rafale and Gripen are way to go for IAF's immediate requirements and AMCA for long term.

 

[TPFscopes]

GoI should consider the development of Aircraft Engines either they are for fighter jet or economic commercial airliner.
First we need to have a healthy heart of the machine.
Hope SAFRAN-ized Kaveri meet its success.

 

[smestarz]

UNFORTUNATELY FGFA is PAKFA MKI, Thus we have to get some units of PAKFA (at least a dozen) so that our pilots fly them and then come up with the customisation required , it would go the same way as Su-30 MKI but in a better organised way.

We already have SU-30 for air superiority role. So we are covered on that front. Lets focus on upgrading our Sukhoi fleet to super Sukhoi standards. No need to spend money on Pak Fa. At least with FGFA we were getting our hands on some Russian tech(that might've been useful for AMCA) but buying Pak-Fa straight from Russia will get us nothing.

Rafale is a capable multi-role, network centric fighter with modern data link, that outclasses anything we have in our neighbourhood. Rafale is combat proven, reliable platform. What is combat experience of Chini 5th gen jet, even Pak-Fa is a paper tiger at this point. It will take many years to get item-30 engine and many years after that for FOC and many years after that for production to complete. Pak-Fa is no way a stop gap solution.

We already bought 36 Rafale so it makes sense to buy more, also Rafale-M could be IN's choice. A joint order between IAF and IA makes lot of sense.

When it comes to technology Rafael is way ahead of anything China has in their inventory. Even better than SU-35 or Eurofighter. There is a reason why IAF is so desperate for this jet. Only issue that is holding back the deal is price and TOT. Talking about price, PAK-FA isn't cheap either. Russia is pressing us to buy big numbers while they themselves are only buying one squad. In other words they want us to bare all development and production cost of the plane.

Geopolitically speaking, China is now officially Russia's closest ally. Do you think in time of was Russia will let us use Pak-Fa against their closest ally? Do you think we will get spares for Pak-Fa from Russia if big brother China says no? This isn't 1971, Russia's fossil fuel driven economy is now heavily reliant on China's big market. Some reports even indicate that China is acting more like big brother to Russia. From now on we should be very careful when dealing with Russians.

I hope this makes everything clear. Rafale and Gripen are way to go for IAF's immediate requirements and AMCA for long term.

 

[smestarz]

Further, adding, yes Rafale is technogicaly better plane, but few things
a) Item 30 would start production from next year, and as per news by 2018, PAKFA with item 30 engines should be available

b) Rafale is way ahead of anything in our neighbourhood is a sheer irresponsible statement, What are you aware of the Chinese developments? Just to give you a point, China is going for two 5th Gen projects, Where as France is developing a few techs and putting them on Rafale and pimping them as 5th Gen planes. So, when you dont know about what technology China has, its stupid to assume that they would still be armed with 19th Century weapons. For example there is a new product called Graphene, and China has more patents filed for it than USA and UK combined.

c) By the way, we dont have Rafale, its still only in France, we have paid the installment and the planes are being produced, so as of now, w have ZERO Rafale. How many Rafales available with IAF if we want to strike Pakistan tomorrow ? ZERO

d) When you compare Rafale with Su-35 or Eurofighter, In few recent exercises, Indian Su-30 MKI beat Eurofighters in UK (and it became a big news) and Rafale in Rajasthan, And just to point it out to you, Su-35 outperforms Su-30 MKI in big way, the plane has better engine with higher thrust, So simply saying Su-35 is more capable than Su-30 MKI., And Su-30 MKI beat the eurocanards,. So get your comparison correct.
Further to a point , a few months back in Syria, when Russians sent their Su-30 SM to Syria, France quietly limited the flights of its Rafales into Iraq only, avoiding Syria entirely. Before he Russians came with their Su-30 SM, the French were conducting operations in Iraq and Syria.

Rafale is the wet dream of IAF chiefs and so even when govt was in discussions with Dassault, it was IAF chiefs which were giving some interviews out of line like saying "there is no plan B" in a way their actions look similar to sickulars who went to meet the Hurriyat guys for talking Peace after surgical strikes

PAKFA is not going to be cheap, but not expensive as Rafale,.Further its a purpose built 5th Gen plane unlike Rafale which is actually a development that started with Mirage III (Mirage III >>> Mirage 2000 >>> Mirage 4000 >> Rafale ) Rafale does not have shaping of 5th Gen plane but depends on jammers for its "stealth" unfortunately Electronic stealth can be defeated. Just need better avionics with good power which fortunately the Russians have.

For IAF, they need LCA MK1A and Mk2 and not Gripen. Sure we need the EW suite of Gripen. We also need say 150 PAKFA/FGFA and then develop AMCA and then get those to replace Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29

We already have SU-30 for air superiority role. So we are covered on that front. Lets focus on upgrading our Sukhoi fleet to super Sukhoi standards. No need to spend money on Pak Fa. At least with FGFA we were getting our hands on some Russian tech(that might've been useful for AMCA) but buying Pak-Fa straight from Russia will get us nothing.

Rafale is a capable multi-role, network centric fighter with modern data link, that outclasses anything we have in our neighbourhood. Rafale is combat proven, reliable platform. What is combat experience of Chini 5th gen jet, even Pak-Fa is a paper tiger at this point. It will take many years to get item-30 engine and many years after that for FOC and many years after that for production to complete. Pak-Fa is no way a stop gap solution.

We already bought 36 Rafale so it makes sense to buy more, also Rafale-M could be IN's choice. A joint order between IAF and IA makes lot of sense.

When it comes to technology Rafael is way ahead of anything China has in their inventory. Even better than SU-35 or Eurofighter. There is a reason why IAF is so desperate for this jet. Only issue that is holding back the deal is price and TOT. Talking about price, PAK-FA isn't cheap either. Russia is pressing us to buy big numbers while they themselves are only buying one squad. In other words they want us to bare all development and production cost of the plane.

Geopolitically speaking, China is now officially Russia's closest ally. Do you think in time of was Russia will let us use Pak-Fa against their closest ally? Do you think we will get spares for Pak-Fa from Russia if big brother China says no? This isn't 1971, Russia's fossil fuel driven economy is now heavily reliant on China's big market. Some reports even indicate that China is acting more like big brother to Russia. From now on we should be very careful when dealing with Russians.

I hope this makes everything clear. Rafale and Gripen are way to go for IAF's immediate requirements and AMCA for long term.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

UNFORTUNATELY FGFA is PAKFA MKI, Thus we have to get some units of PAKFA (at least a dozen) so that our pilots fly them and then come up with the customisation required , it would go the same way as Su-30 MKI but in a better organised way.

All sources indicate that FGFA is not happening. So let it go.

AMCA is going to be India's FIRST and ONLY 5th gen bird in foreseeable future.

 

[airtel]

All sources indicate that FGFA is not happening. So let it go.

AMCA is going to be India's FIRST and ONLY 5th gen bird in foreseeable future.

now Chinese Will buy all the Russian technology ...........i am worried for Indians .

 

[xeaaex]

All sources indicate that FGFA is not happening. So let it go.

AMCA is going to be India's FIRST and ONLY 5th gen bird in foreseeable future.

Good news , India should start making its own products and using them and then improving them.
Or else we will always lack behind them.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Further, adding, yes Rafale is technogicaly better plane, but few things
a) Item 30 would start production from next year, and as per news by 2018, PAKFA with item 30 engines should be available

Item 30 would start PROTOTYPE from next year. After that, long process of testing and validating.

PakFa is still under development stage, how come it will be available from next year?

are you aware of the Chinese developments?

Yes, they have copied F22 and F35 airframe design and mated them with smoky engines and calling it 5th gen. If you have anymore info please share with us.

Where as France is developing a few techs and putting them on Rafale and pimping them as 5th Gen planes

France isn't pimping Rafale as 5th gen. They are openly skipping a gen and working on 6th gen. Now this is another topic altogether.

c) By the way, we dont have Rafale, its still only in France, we have paid the installment and the planes are being produced

We have BOUGHT them. Deliveries are PENDING.

so as of now, w have ZERO Rafale. How many Rafales available with IAF if we want to strike Pakistan tomorrow ? ZERO

Yes because DELIVERIES ARE PENDING.

Tell me How many PAKFA available with IAF if we want to strike Pakistan tomorrow ? ZERO

When you compare Rafale with Su-35 or Eurofighter, In few recent exercises, Indian Su-30 MKI beat Eurofighters in UK

So SU-30 is a capable plane. I agree. No need for more flankers, including PAKFA.

Rafale is the wet dream of IAF chiefs and so even when govt was in discussions with Dassault

Because they EVALUATED that plane along with others for MMRCA competition. They know about Rafale's capabilities first hand.

PAKFA is not going to be cheap, but not expensive as Rafale

Than why Russians aren't buying?

Rafale does not have shaping of 5th Gen plane

No one is calling Rafale 5th gen. Rafale is a best 4++ gen bird money can buy.

BTW Does PakFA have shaping of a PROPER 5th gen plane? Does PAKFA have Ram coating? Is iit capable of super cruise without afterburner?

For IAF, they need LCA MK1A and Mk2 and not Gripen.

IAF has made it very clear that for medium category they need either Rafale or Rafale like bird in large number immediately. Only F16 and Gripen fill that category. Among both Gripen is obvious choice for many reasons. Keep LCA out of debate. Its only for light category.

We also need say 150 PAKFA/FGFA and then develop AMCA

No we don't. We need more Rafale/Gripen and along with it faster development of AMCA.

 

[TPFscopes]

Developing Agency and GoI shows their negligence by delaying FOC & Production schedule.
It is the time for GoI & agency to show their very positive approach to produce the jet before its scheduled.

 

[Bahamut]

Than why Russians aren't buying?

They small number is for training and developing tactics, once they know what are the limits and how ur should be used they will order a large number.

BTW Does PakFA have shaping of a PROPER 5th gen plane? Does PAKFA have Ram coating? Is iit capable of super cruise without afterburner?

Yes it can supercruise with present engine at mach 1.6 for 1500 km. It has a ram coating and it does have a proper shape.

PakFa is still under development stage, how come it will be available from next year?

It is said by the Russian defence minister that Pak Fa belongs to 2018-2025 defence upgrade plan. All most all test are completed. Only test remaining are for new engine and weapons which can happen after the plane has been inducted.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

@Bahamut

I have taken PAKFA discussion to a relevant thread.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...n-fighter-aircraft.8276/page-271#post-1303666

 

[Bahamut]

I have taken PAKFA discussion to a relevant thread.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...n-fighter-aircraft.8276/page-271#post-1303666

Watch this video
..................................................................................................................................

 

[SATISH]

India needs PAK-FA. If people just want to dump money into AMCA and have no back up we have to end up with F 35 which is not an viable idea.

And I think the twin engined AMCA is another stupidity by the Airfroce. A single engine AMCA for the airforce is a much logical solution. The Twin engined AMCA if created must have the backing of Navy from the start. This way it is a much better and viable project.