AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[tsunami]

As your correspondent reports, the first 1:1 full scale model of India’s fifth generation concept Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is being built in Bengaluru. Later this year, the model will undergo a series of rigorous tests at an RCS facility in Hyderabad, where the programme team will have its fest chance at seeing how the shape they’ve chosen for the jet deals with radiation. The exercise will be historic. Because it will be the first time India will be specifically testing a stealth airframe.

Cmde C.D. Balaji, chief at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) met with Livefist at the Aero India show for a chat on the programme. ‘This will be our first big learning process. We need to be sure about the conformal antennas and shapes before we finalise the airframe,’ he says. Another very crucial application the team plans to bring into play is computational electromagnetics, to simulate in parallel how the concept jet deals with radar and other assaults built to beat stealth.

‘About 60-70% of the stealth we intend will come from the aircraft’s shape. The rest we are discovering as we develop the aircraft. Nothing like this has ever been attempted before,’ Balaji says. An AMCA model debuted at Aero India 2009, the first time anyone got a sense of what the ADA was looking to build.

The team at ADA expects full-scale engineering development till the prototype stage to take at least a decade. Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says.

The AMCA project could find additional backing and strength owing to persistent problems India faces from Russia over the T-50 FGFA programme. On Tuesday, Defence Minister Parrikar even admitted that there were problems that needed sorting. Earlier this year, the government took the surprising step of setting up a committee to go over the FGFA programme and actually see if India benefits at all. Negotiations have meandered over work share and how qualitatively India will even contribute to the programme other than be its largest operator. Sources on the AMCA team wouldn’t commit, but wouldn’t deny that trouble with the FGFA programme only placed greater (and welcome) pressure on the indigenous effort to deliver on time and cost — and capability.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-5th-gen-amca-targets-2030.html

I guess this is wrong information. The Design is almost finalised, and even if stealth tests are not done and they have no Idea about it's RCS why then what they are doing from last 3-4 years changing design constantly?? There were more then 9-10 official designs. Only possibility is that these are the design validation tests on RCS figures.

Even if design is not ready now and it takes 2 More years it should be ready by starting of 2019. So a first flight in 2030 is a bit too much time for prototype creation. When we had nothing Tejas took 8 years(1993-2001) for prototype building. And if 2030 true then we should consider at least 10 years for testing phase. So production will never start before 2040.

At max prototype will be ready by 2025 for first flight. By then we will have our own AESA, and Engine also all the other critical techs will be mostly ready. So 2025-2035 development and Full production after that is understandable.

 

[Vijyes]

I guess, rafale is indeed going to be ordered in 200+ if they help with Kaveri engine. This AMCA appears quite sucky. They started it in 2009 and yet want 2030 for first prototype. They don't understand the meaning of working on war footing. Can't they quicken the design or copy the airframe from F35 and FGFA for which few hundred crore initial investment was made?

 

[Vijyes]

I guess this is wrong information. The Design is almost finalised, and even if stealth tests are not done and they have no Idea about it's RCS why then what they are doing from last 3-4 years changing design constantly?? There were more then 9-10 official designs. Only possibility is that these are the design validation tests on RCS figures.

Even if design is not ready now and it takes 2 More years it should be ready by starting of 2019. So a first flight in 2030 is a bit too much time for prototype creation. When we had nothing Tejas took 8 years(1993-2001) for prototype building. And if 2030 true then we should consider at least 10 years for testing phase. So production will never start before 2040.

At max prototype will be ready by 2025 for first flight. By then we will have our own AESA, and Engine also all the other critical techs will be mostly ready. So 2025-2035 development and Full production after that is understandable.

India is more focused on steal fron paul and give to harry. Large massacre and large scale deaths are needed to make slave minded Indians wake up into reality or to end the misery. No one takes 21 years for first flight. Is it some kind of a joke? If the info is indeed from ADA chief, it must be correct. Also, saying LCA MK2 will go into production by 2030-35 is an extreme nut case scenario.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

if this is the time they are targeting then it's shitty
even turkey Is thinking of 2025
even though it would just be a assembly

And chinese j20 is already going to be inducted
Government should really buy out any foreign based good private aviation company

 

[Narasimh]

I think we should all take media reports with a pinch of salt and not believe in it all the way. Things might change in future and may workout early. But considering the gamut of technologies that needs to be mastered by ADA and HAL for fifth gen fighter, the timeline seems more or less in the ballpark.
I think ADA is playing it safe due to Tejas experience and not setting expectations too high from the beginning.
Its also simultaneously working on Ghatak UCAV, so there might be some link there as well.

Lets also remember that we are still a poor nation and our economy still has long way to go... so large scale funding at one go for this project is not going to be possible and neither some buyout of private aviation firms.
Govt will not take any impulsive decision but hopefully will be pragmatic enough to ramp up the pace.

 

[Alok Arya]

As your correspondent reports, the first 1:1 full scale model of India’s fifth generation concept Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) is being built in Bengaluru. Later this year, the model will undergo a series of rigorous tests at an RCS facility in Hyderabad, where the programme team will have its fest chance at seeing how the shape they’ve chosen for the jet deals with radiation. The exercise will be historic. Because it will be the first time India will be specifically testing a stealth airframe.

Cmde C.D. Balaji, chief at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) met with Livefist at the Aero India show for a chat on the programme. ‘This will be our first big learning process. We need to be sure about the conformal antennas and shapes before we finalise the airframe,’ he says. Another very crucial application the team plans to bring into play is computational electromagnetics, to simulate in parallel how the concept jet deals with radar and other assaults built to beat stealth.

‘About 60-70% of the stealth we intend will come from the aircraft’s shape. The rest we are discovering as we develop the aircraft. Nothing like this has ever been attempted before,’ Balaji says. An AMCA model debuted at Aero India 2009, the first time anyone got a sense of what the ADA was looking to build.

The team at ADA expects full-scale engineering development till the prototype stage to take at least a decade. Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says.

The AMCA project could find additional backing and strength owing to persistent problems India faces from Russia over the T-50 FGFA programme. On Tuesday, Defence Minister Parrikar even admitted that there were problems that needed sorting. Earlier this year, the government took the surprising step of setting up a committee to go over the FGFA programme and actually see if India benefits at all. Negotiations have meandered over work share and how qualitatively India will even contribute to the programme other than be its largest operator. Sources on the AMCA team wouldn’t commit, but wouldn’t deny that trouble with the FGFA programme only placed greater (and welcome) pressure on the indigenous effort to deliver on time and cost — and capability.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/exclusive-indias-5th-gen-amca-targets-2030.html

Tottaly fake propaganda. Tejas mark 2 will be in air in late 2019 and navy mark 2 will be in air in late 2020 . F414 engine has been received for both already . Both mark 2 will be of IOC standard . 2-3 more year for foc . So production from 2023 max .
AMCA degine already finalised , finer tuning on rcs is going on which take 2 -3 year and prototype will be in air from 2020 to 2021 . LPS in 2025 with production in 2027 to 2028 .

 

[kunal1123]

Tottaly fake propaganda. Tejas mark 2 will be in air in late 2019 and navy mark 2 will be in air in late 2020 . F414 engine has been received for both already . Both mark 2 will be of IOC standard . 2-3 more year for foc . So production from 2023 max .
AMCA degine already finalised , finer tuning on rcs is going on which take 2 -3 year and prototype will be in air from 2020 to 2021 . LPS in 2025 with production in 2027 to 2028 .

well i am to hoping that ,but it largely depend on engine front. i am hoping LSP by 2027-28 and SP BY 2030-31.

 

[Vijyes]

I think we should all take media reports with a pinch of salt and not believe in it all the way. Things might change in future and may workout early. But considering the gamut of technologies that needs to be mastered by ADA and HAL for fifth gen fighter, the timeline seems more or less in the ballpark.
I think ADA is playing it safe due to Tejas experience and not setting expectations too high from the beginning.
Its also simultaneously working on Ghatak UCAV, so there might be some link there as well.

Lets also remember that we are still a poor nation and our economy still has long way to go... so large scale funding at one go for this project is not going to be possible and neither some buyout of private aviation firms.
Govt will not take any impulsive decision but hopefully will be pragmatic enough to ramp up the pace.

Poverty is relative. In PPP terms, India has 9triliion compared to US 19trillion. If we indigenously produce things, it will be much cheaper. It is all about know how. As long as we keep importing, we will keep sucking. US GDP was no better than oirs in 1990. World growth took off rapidly after 1990 duw to Internet and computers. If US could build an engine in 1985s, why can't India? Even Russia has good engine and so does France and UK. They could develop planes in 1990s. We can't even copy. Do we have completely untalented people? We could master nukes by 1971-2 within 13 years of starting the development mission. The biggest problem is to innovate, not to replicate. We can't even do that.

Also, it is not necessary that we have to make every indian own a car like Americans to call ourselves developed. US is developed because it has big military that forces OPEC to sell oil in Dollars, not other way around. If dollar was not used to sell oil, US would have gone bankrupt. It would be facing severe balance of payment crisis (US hates iran because it sells oil in euros). Strong military is what causes development as we will be able to threaten others into following our command.

 

[Alok Arya]

well i am to hoping that ,but it largely depend on engine front. i am hoping LSP by 2027-28 and SP BY 2030-31.

On engine front there is two option . One is kaveri snecma , whatever tot we will get is future question. Other is f414 uprated to >110 kn with ede and epe tech , tot depended on f16 local manufacturing. Till then there is f414 98 kn to put aircraft in air , which we already start receiving . So I think engine is not a problem as of now . Dimension of f414 98 kn , f414 110 kn , and Kaveri snecma are almost same . But if aircraft fly with final engine it cut short developmental time .

 

[tharun]

As expected even 2030 not enough for our lazy assholes.

 

[Superdefender]

By 2035, technology will mature too much. AMCA, by then, will not be a fifth generation aircraft, but technically 5.5 gen.

 

[tsunami]

well i am to hoping that ,but it largely depend on engine front. i am hoping LSP by 2027-28 and SP BY 2030-31.

AMCA will be mostly 18 tons Loaded weight fighter(Pure speculation)
Any engine delivering more then 90 KN thrust will give it T/W ratio of more than 1. We can always have GE 414 installed on it with 98 KN thrust. That will be giving 1.1 T/W ratio to the fighter. We can go for an Indian engine in later blocks.

I don't know from where this 115 kn figure come to the picture but IAF has asked for a 105 kn engine. With French help we should be able to make Kaveri that capable by 2025 at least.

 

[kunal1123]

AMCA will be mostly 18 tons Loaded weight fighter(Pure speculation)
Any engine delivering more then 90 KN thrust will give it T/W ratio of more than 1. We can always have GE 414 installed on it with 98 KN thrust. That will be giving 1.1 T/W ratio to the fighter. We can go for an Indian engine in later blocks.

I don't know from where this 115 kn figure come to the picture but IAF has asked for a 105 kn engine. With French help we should be able to make Kaveri that capable by 2025 at least.

problem is not the total thrust. but the dry thrust
see Rafael with full internal fuel and 2500kg loaded(4 missile+one drop tank) is super-cruise at 1.4mach . that at weight around 18500kg with dry thrust of 2*50
for the AMCA's broad specifications stated that the aircraft will have a weight of 16–18 tonnes with 2-tonnes of internal weapons and four-tonnes of internal fuel now full internal fuel and internal weapon AMCA will weight around 24000 for that to be same as Rafael u need at-least 68-70 kn dry thrust which currently no engine give ( that we intended to use )

 

[Superdefender]

Sent a mail to Mr. Bharat Karnad. His reply was this.....


AMCA Timeline
4:44 pm
Me:
°°°Cmde C.D. Balaji, chief at the Aeronautical Development Agency
(ADA) met with Livefist at the Aero India show for a chat on the
programme. The team at ADA expects full-scale engineering development
till the prototype stage to take at least a decade. Livefist also
learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight:
2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that
the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered,
should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for
production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says.°°°
Sir, the timeframe is too much. 2035, really?

After 11 min,
bharat - 11 mins ago
If that what Balaji says, then it must be.

 

[kunal1123]

any truth or just russian propoganda..............

http://tass.com/defense/931198
Russia to join India’s project to develop 5th-generation combat aircraft
Military & Defense
February 16, 13:22 UTC+3
The fifth-generation multipurpose fighter jet is expected to replace a whole range of warplanes in the Indian Air Force
Share
2

© wikimedia.org
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Russia and India to develop BrahMos light cruise missile for PAK FA 5th-generation jet
BANGALORE (India), February 16. /TASS/. Russia will take part in the project to develop India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), Director for International Cooperation and Regional Policy of Russia’s state hi-tech corporation Rostec Viktor Kladov said on Thursday.

"We’ll surely participate," he said in reply to the corresponding question.

According to public sources, the work on the AMCA began in 2008. The fifth-generation multipurpose fighter jet is expected to replace a whole range of warplanes in the Indian Air Force.

Media reports said the first flight was scheduled for 2023-2024.



More:
http://tass.com/defense/931198

 

[singh100ful]

Sent a mail to Mr. Bharat Karnad. His reply was this.....


AMCA Timeline
4:44 pm
Me:
°°°Cmde C.D. Balaji, chief at the Aeronautical Development Agency
(ADA) met with Livefist at the Aero India show for a chat on the
programme. The team at ADA expects full-scale engineering development
till the prototype stage to take at least a decade. Livefist also
learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight:
2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that
the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered,
should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for
production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says.°°°
Sir, the timeframe is too much. 2035, really?

After 11 min,
bharat - 11 mins ago
If that what Balaji says, then it must be.

We are doomed...........

 

[kunal1123]

@Vijyes

We are doomed...........

Mr. Bharat Karnad. does not have any additional info.

well read these line carefully

"Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says."

i think balaji say that the production of amca to start 2035. that mean lsp should be start from 2028-2030 to complete the all test. if mk1 is built till 24 and mk2(let say 120 order) will take 6 year(19 PER YEAR) to complete so the production target for amca is around 2030 at least for LSP .

 

[Immanuel]

@Vijyes

Mr. Bharat Karnad. does not have any additional info.

well read these line carefully

"Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says."

i think balaji say that the production of amca to start 2035. that mean lsp should be start from 2028-2030 to complete the all test. if mk1 is built till 24 and mk2(let say 120 order) will take 6 year(19 PER YEAR) to complete so the production target for amca is around 2030 at least for LSP .

MOD's policy of MII and importing single engine and twin engine fighters is killing the chances for local birds. It seems the name Imported Air Force will stay for a long time. Cockaroaches.

 

[Vijyes]

@Vijyes

Mr. Bharat Karnad. does not have any additional info.

well read these line carefully

"Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says."

i think balaji say that the production of amca to start 2035. that mean lsp should be start from 2028-2030 to complete the all test. if mk1 is built till 24 and mk2(let say 120 order) will take 6 year(19 PER YEAR) to complete so the production target for amca is around 2030 at least for LSP .

Yes, 2035 the final production is set to start. But the problem is 2035 is too far. Why does anyone need so much time? Why can't they just develop 4th gen fighter initially instead of getting MIG29K etc and then refine the stealth to 5th generation? What is so great about quality that we compromise completely on quantity? Why can't India make radars and engine like France? If france could make engine in 1990, now with advanced technology and computer why can't india?

MOD's policy of MII and importing single engine and twin engine fighters is killing the chances for local birds. It seems the name Imported Air Force will stay for a long time. Cockaroaches.

Imported or not is not the question. The question is why doesn't India fund the development of indigenous technology? Before stopping import it is necessary to ensure that research is well funded. Defence budget must be hiked to higher levels. By 2030, Indian GDP will be 6-8 trillion USD. It is likely to be 20 trillion in PPP. So, defense budget can be expected to be 150 billion USD. Why is the targeted research not being well funded with futuristic aims?

 

[Vijyes]

I am also confused about one thing : rafale has weight of 18 ton while take off (10.5ton empty + 4.5ton fuel + 3 ton cargo) and is powered by 50/75 kN M88. It can supercruise at 1.3-1.4 Mach at high altitude and 1.1 Mach at low altitude. How can 65/98 kN engine make AMCA weighing 25 ton take off weight suoercruise at 1.6 Mach at high ans 1.2 Mach at low altitude? The thrust to weight is the same for both. Also, with increasing size, drag will increase. AMCA can at best do 1.3/1 Mach at high/low altitude. The 1.6/1.2 seems too ambitious to me.

I was also wondering if India can develop a lighter jet like Rafale with kaveri engine since it has 55/81kN thrust which is higher than M88 50/75 kN? The extra weight of 200kg per engine can be compensated by 10% higher thrust. 400kg extra (2 engine) will not be much for 18 ton jet.

Any views on the above 2 points will be appreciated.