AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[tharun]

AMCA Mission Simulator

--------------------------------

Looking at cockpit display it's awesome...can u give me the link for further details....

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Heyy Guys! I'm new to this to forum.. My name is Murli Yadav, im the one who recently designed few AMCA artworks ... I see somebody posted the same on page 89 here ... I just wanted to ask If there is some design changes been made in AMCA recently ? I heard it has been tweeked and made some design changes ..I want to to redesign it if it has been changed .. Does anybody has any pictures of recent design changes in AMCA if it has been changed ? and please let me know if the designs i made are correct in shape! I want to make sure i did it right before i proceed making few more artworks with armaments ! Thank You!

Well come murli. Pl look at the previous pictures. How AMCA Design is evolved is mentioned in picture. I do not know if there is any recent change.

 

[Yumdoot]

AL-31 family of engines are all 1500 kg and later variants go upto 932 mm dia. with exactly 10:1 TWR for 117S for example.

F-414 family will be just over 1100 kg and 890 mm dia with well over 10:1 TWR for EPE for example.

If we derate the AL-31 then we will perhaps end up with a TWR even lower then the original one because the innards which are currently tuned to produce 140+KN are not going to get revised heavily at all. The J-10 version too was derated and while it does make the cut for near future, the Chinese know that they must have their own better customized engine for the purpose. This kind of derating stuff perhaps can only be tried for LCA versions but for AMCA we must think better or fix up the engine beforehand.

So essentially there cannot be a one to one change (something that everybody would wish for, to de-risk the AMCA program). You can either plan with this family or that one. And that is why AMCA is still heavily in risk. We actually ended up on the wrong foot for multiple reasons. Most importantly engines are a strategic item and not a commercial item of trade. By bringing in every vendor our people have either tried to be too smart or too sweet to everybody. They will end up delaying everything. Then there is the historical baggage of 'smallness' which demands miniaturization which in turn enslaves us to the westerners (most likely intentionally done by our own people). Then there is the itch to bundle up the import of tech with import of products, which ties down everything.

Currently the GoI ask the armed forces what they want and then later asks the DRDO as to what offsets they want. For engines the basic demands of IAF should be taken iinto consideration and then the GTRE should be asked as to the detailed help they would require to reach the point the IAF wants things to be at.

If however the Russians have to be brought in then we should either start with a AHCA ie. a new program which is going to be too costly a route. Or we should be willing to invite Russians or French to de-risk the AMCA then we should be willing to shell money upfront for indigenous engine development with foreign help or finance their engines in their design shops for ultimate imports + non critical TOT. Essentially everybody already knows our predicament and angling accordingly, which BTW should not be taken otherwise, its natural and ok.

I say we take the Chinese route ie. insisting on making our own and ask the foreigners to help in that and to supply a near variant till our own efforts work out, all off course for a massive cash outflow. Which is what it seems the GoI is attempting. Unfortunately the choice is between - high promises from US option vs. present (but less lucrative Russian and European options).

BTW Russians have since quite sometime been offering to work on engine co-developments. Hamare log instead prefer to put oil in their ears. Russian have fallen behind due to the 90s lost decade, but will catch up again eventually.

TVC should not be a consideration. Newer TVCs designs are not going to be so engine specific. And since that is so the TVC for AMCA is already decided to be developed with the Russians.

 

[AnantS]

IAF to take final call on AMCA’s engine : DRDO Chief

Source: idrw.org
@Shaitan @AnantS @shiphone
Which option gonna be better in you guys' opinion?
Co developing or importing the engine?
French too were offering a JV for Kaveri, we have developed a heli engine earlier jointly with them too.

That option will be chosen which makes airforce happy.
EF 200 has less chance, because even though a very good engine- its nobody's baby- buying it is as good as not buying it. ToT will be very very difficult even if they are willing to.
US: As long as they don't force India to sign CISMOA and transfer required requisited know how, No harm in taking that option

 

[ersakthivel]

Saab adds GaN AESA co-dev to Make in India Gripen pitch

Saab has offered it’s cutting-edge Gallium Nitride AESA radar technology if India decides to produce the Gripen fighter aircraft for the IAF.
By Saurabh Joshi on June 10, 2016 / 0 Comments

Source: Saab
Sweden and Saab have offered to co-develop its Gallium Nitride AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar with India. In meetings held with a visiting Indian defense ministry committee this week, which included Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha — and following on from briefings in New Delhi last month — Saab officials have pitched the idea of joint development of the technology to India, if India were to select the Gripen for production in India, via Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Make in India initiative.
Lars Tossman, Head of Saab’s Airborne Surveillance business unit told visiting Indian media last month, “We talked in India – we said if India would choose Gripen, then we would be willing to share this technology and co-develop it. We have a lot to contribute but we’re willing to share that.”

Tejas LCA Requirement

Although Saab has received a Request For Information (RFI) for the LCA Mk1A, which requires an AESA radar, besides EW and ESM suites, among other items, this offer of co-development is contingent to an agreement on a Gripen Make In India program.
“This could also be a technology used in an LCA, your home program and there could be a lot of synergies between Gripen and LCA on the sensor suite. This is something – I just said we would be willing to co-develop this with Indian local partners that India as a nation would think is the right one,” said Tossman.
“We are in a long term business and we think this is good for a joint Sweden-India Gripen program but could also be for the good use of LCA of course. This is something that India could gain from if they would choose us as the supplier,” he added.
According to Tossman, GaN AESA radars are 70 percent more effective than existing AESA radar technology. This development is different from the SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar developed for the Gripen. But Sweden is clear that the offer to share GaN AESA radar technology would be only be on offer if India were to agree to to produce the Gripen in India for the IAF.

Source: Saab
“We are willing to do that if India would choose that – this would be part of a package like that. We would be willing to discuss and find a solution that would be good for all parties. But Saab was very clear with all the dialogue that we had, that we are willing to share this – transfer of technology and joint venture and joint development. I think Make in India is the way forward in India,” said Tossman, adding, “This is one of the extra benefits of choosing Gripen.”

Competition

India is currently contemplating proposals from Lockheed Martin to shift its F-16 assembly line to India, from Boeing for setting up a second F/A-18 line in India and from Saab for the setting up of a Gripen production line in India, although Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar appears to have crossed out the F-16 from this list in remarks he made to India’s Parliament, recently.
India had last year with drawn the IAF tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) after negotiations with France’s Dassault for the L1-selected Rafale failed after a tender process that began in 2007, with trials of six fighter aircraft. Besides the Gripen, F-16, F/A-18 and Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Russian MiG-35 were also tested. India is currently negotiating for an off-the-shelf purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft as part of an announcement made by Prime Minister Modi in April 2015.
But in any case, GaN AESA technology sharing is not something anyone else is likely to offer India anytime soon.
“If Indian would choose Gripen, I don’t know what our competitors will offer India but I think this would be of interest because India would get a decisive edge

SAAB has nothing to offer on AMCA , may be or tejas mk2,
These are just marketing spiels,
SAAB hasn't fully developed its GaN ASEA tech,
SAAB failed to develop the all critical RSS fly by wire control laws so critical for any 4.5th gen fighter jet, A couple of gripen prototypes crashed because of fly by wire errors , after that SAAB asked a US firm to do the fly by wire, in contrast despite repeated sanctions ADA managed a flaw less fly by wire , which will also form the back bone of AMCA,

SAAB has no engine tech even closer to kaveri K-9 variable cycle level to offer, they use italian radars, US engine, fly by wire tech,

What they will do is to take 50 % IP rights for contributing some project management skills, & virtually stall indigenous aviation & stealth tech development in india for couple of more decades, which were all painstakingly built over two decades of tejas project.

Most of the media scums who are "enthralled " at this SAAB offer are traitors to the nation, all agusta patrakars,

Gripen E is supposed to weigh over 8 tons!!! many serving & retired IAF chiefs who were smiling in front of this overweight bird, while stalling tejas mk2 effort which aims to reduce weight of tejas mk1 below 6.5 tons !!!

SO dont ever get conned by these magic SAAB offers, they have nothing in their kitty that ADA covets,

May be project consultancy for some hefty fees on tejas mk2 without any IP rights to them is what we can offer SAAB at most.
ANything else is suicidal,

We can rely on unobtrusive israelis for EW, ASEA radar tech on AMCA, israelis are adding their own EW suits & avionics to even 5th gen F-35,

This SAAB cant match!!

Only thing in SAAB's interest is cancellation of IAF tejas mk2 or their own participation in the effort with 50% share, which is no good for india,

Ironically many retired & serving worthies of IAF are will fully singing the SAAB tune of " no need for IAF tejas mk2"!!!


IF we buy rafale & make Snecma -GTRE work we will reap a huge windfall for future, because AMCA, tejas mk2, mig-29 engines can all be standardized on this JV.

GOing to SAAB forecloses everything

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

IAF to take final call on AMCA’s engine : DRDO Chief

Source: idrw.org
@Shaitan @AnantS @shiphone
Which option gonna be better in you guys' opinion?
Co developing or importing the engine?
French too were offering a JV for Kaveri, we have developed a heli engine earlier jointly with them too.

IAF to take final call on AMCA’s engine : DRDO Chief

Source: idrw.org
@Shaitan @AnantS @shiphone
Which option gonna be better in you guys' opinion?
Co developing or importing the engine?
French too were offering a JV for Kaveri, we have developed a heli engine earlier jointly with them too.

I don't trust the French

They have pulled this stunt earlier also during mirage upgrade and rafale mmrca tender

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't trust the French

They have pulled this stunt earlier also during mirage upgrade and rafale mmrca tender

They were allowed to pull this stunt by bribe mongering UPA regime!!WHy blame the french??

Now they have No nonsense Modi- parrikar duo to deal with, SO make irrevocable contract with hefty fine for breaching & proceed on 18 month timeframe engine JV, Surely this JV could be finished within the term of the modi regime, So why worry?

However if the JV overshoots Modi regime's timeline, this too will be another fiasco!!

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I don't trust the French

They have pulled this stunt earlier also during mirage upgrade and rafale mmrca tender

But they helped us to make helicopter engine, space tech and other fields too. Why shy away only because of negative deeds?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AMCA design would grow larger in dimension if AL31 is taken as its engine, The AMCA is design around smaller medium class size engine such as Kaveri and GE-414 ..

Though, I agree with your view as this will benefit SU-30MKI and in future if Tejas MK3 comes into picture it will be bigger and powerful in same weight category of heavier F-35 ..

I bet for AL31 down graded engine because it can come quickly and at a low cost. We can improve it according to our requirement. Why I recommend the Russian engine is because it already has thrust victor. Mishra dhathu nigam limited has claimed to develop a SCB much better than that of AL31. We can integrate both technology and develop a 120 to 125 KN TWC engine. This seems to me the shortest way.

AMCA will be a twine engine fighter so if engine is a bit less reliable it won't going to make a big difference. The chelleng against us is to bring AMCA very quickly. If possible, we must not Hesitate to partner with the countries like UK, France or Israel.

=========================

The tactic here is same as before, This move is intend to delay Tejas MK1A ..

But they helped us to make helicopter engine, space tech and other fields too. Why shy away only because of negative deeds?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

AL-31 family of engines are all 1500 kg and later variants go upto 932 mm dia. with exactly 10:1 TWR for 117S for example.

F-414 family will be just over 1100 kg and 890 mm dia with well over 10:1 TWR for EPE for example.

If we derate the AL-31 then we will perhaps end up with a TWR even lower then the original one because the innards which are currently tuned to produce 140+KN are not going to get revised heavily at all. The J-10 version too was derated and while it does make the cut for near future, the Chinese know that they must have their own better customized engine for the purpose. This kind of derating stuff perhaps can only be tried for LCA versions but for AMCA we must think better or fix up the engine beforehand.

So essentially there cannot be a one to one change (something that everybody would wish for, to de-risk the AMCA program). You can either plan with this family or that one. And that is why AMCA is still heavily in risk. We actually ended up on the wrong foot for multiple reasons. Most importantly engines are a strategic item and not a commercial item of trade. By bringing in every vendor our people have either tried to be too smart or too sweet to everybody. They will end up delaying everything. Then there is the historical baggage of 'smallness' which demands miniaturization which in turn enslaves us to the westerners (most likely intentionally done by our own people). Then there is the itch to bundle up the import of tech with import of products, which ties down everything.

Currently the GoI ask the armed forces what they want and then later asks the DRDO as to what offsets they want. For engines the basic demands of IAF should be taken iinto consideration and then the GTRE should be asked as to the detailed help they would require to reach the point the IAF wants things to be at.

If however the Russians have to be brought in then we should either start with a AHCA ie. a new program which is going to be too costly a route. Or we should be willing to invite Russians or French to de-risk the AMCA then we should be willing to shell money upfront for indigenous engine development with foreign help or finance their engines in their design shops for ultimate imports + non critical TOT. Essentially everybody already knows our predicament and angling accordingly, which BTW should not be taken otherwise, its natural and ok.

I say we take the Chinese route ie. insisting on making our own and ask the foreigners to help in that and to supply a near variant till our own efforts work out, all off course for a massive cash outflow. Which is what it seems the GoI is attempting. Unfortunately the choice is between - high promises from US option vs. present (but less lucrative Russian and European options).

BTW Russians have since quite sometime been offering to work on engine co-developments. Hamare log instead prefer to put oil in their ears. Russian have fallen behind due to the 90s lost decade, but will catch up again eventually.

TVC should not be a consideration. Newer TVCs designs are not going to be so engine specific. And since that is so the TVC for AMCA is already decided to be developed with the Russians.

I know it has lower T/W ratio but we can improve it. Even if it is say 50 to 100 KG havier , I do not mind because AMCA is designed keeping Thrust victor in mind. Now you have 2 option. Either improve the power of 414 and add TVC or derate AL31 and improve T/W ratio. Secon looks more practicle to me.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

What about Mig 35 TVC engine?

@Yumdoot

 

[Yumdoot]

What about Mig 35 TVC engine?

@Yumdoot

Russians are not developing the RD-33 family any further. Unless say Pakistanis decide to finance it (highly unlikely). The Chinese will have use for this kind of engine and the Chinese will offer it as part of J-31 to the Pakis but in their own version of RD-33. Russians have no further use for this kind of engine. Mig-29K has will help their navy till they can navalize the PAKFA which is entirely doable for them. Even the Indian Navy will see its future in Navalized AMCAs and if that happens in reasonable time then Mig-29K of Indian Navy perhaps may not even seek mid life upgrades. Essentially because RD-33 family has no real future that is why it has been okeyd for sale to Pakistan. Russians cannot fund so many fighter engines. RD-33MK is as mature as its ever going to get in a reasonable timeframe.

Maturity is also a concern for the AL-31 family. That is why they started the 117 as a clean sheet design. AL-31 family is as mature in the Su-35 version as it will ever be made. Regards de-rating, how will it help if the engine is oversized for AMCA? You can put an AL-31/117 inside AMCA only if you are willing to increase the size and/or revise the current basic idea that you have in your hand after spending 295 mllion USD (over Rs. 1500 Cr). You spend that much money in prelim studies only when you are going to stick with an idea produced after spending that much.

If you really wish to use AL-31 family to de-risk your indigenous aviation then only reasonable way is the Chinese way of J-10. But even for this we already are focusing on the 98KN GE engine, which is going to give almost like results (unnees-bees). If MOD is successful in closing the details with Americans then you may perhaps see an LCA Mk-3 too based on the AMCA engine, for example. Besides, by the time the LCA MK-2 matures, who knows, the very concept of lighter planes may be legacy. So even here there are limitations/concerns.

There is no alternative to starting the R&D right away for what we need. See even in the current format where we are importing the F-404 we still are developing Kaveri versions, because we will genuinely need it for later re-engining. Its going to be the same with the AMCA engine. We should start yesterday because there is a lot that has to be done before we ever hit the main bottlenecks. Ideally the GTRE should be ring-fenced and financed, whatever the results (in the same mode as BARC was and is), till the required product is made.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Pakistanis decide to finance it (highly unlikely).

Unlikely?
It's impossible. @HariPrasad-1 :hippo:

 

[smestarz]

I don't trust the French

They have pulled this stunt earlier also during mirage upgrade and rafale mmrca tender

In my view, better go with the Americans since they have in short time proved reliable and the Americans have mastered the technology. Other are the Russians with whom we have close ties.
Eurojet, it might be better to give that a miss, because somewhere would be having shares of Finnmeccanica and then how does one black list a company with who we signed the deal?
With Americans and Russians we have more or less G2G deals (at least with the Americans) so as of yet there are no claims of bribes or other allegations.

 

[smestarz]

They can at present either fund the engine or fund the terror outfits,
And when the terror camps are well funded, we are sure that Pakistan will not be spending more on its economy or to develop things.

Unlikely?
It's impossible. @HariPrasad-1 :hippo:

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Pakistan can finance only terror and nothing else. They are beggars. They think that begging internationally is their birth right.

Unlikely?
It's impossible. @HariPrasad-1 :hippo:

 

[Indx TechStyle]

They can at present either fund the engine or fund the terror outfits,
And when the terror camps are well funded, we are sure that Pakistan will not be spending more on its economy or to develop things.

But seriously, such a pathetic economy, that even growing 3-4%, most of debts due, I wonder how they are funding terror camps, engine is out of question.

 

[smestarz]

They are getting donations from many Islamic countries in the middle east
and that is used on this HOLY deeds

But seriously, such a pathetic economy, that even growing 3-4%, most of debts due, I wonder how they are funding terror camps, engine is out of question.

 

[ersakthivel]

Chinese are practical in fielding a stealth fighter J-20 with an under powered engine only for its low observability.

But IAF wont touch AMCA even with a barge pole , if it doesn't supercruise at mach 1.5!! same speed as that of F-22!!!

manohar Parrikar is trying to read some reason into IAF by asking them to accept AMCA at least with mach 1.2 supersruise, but still no words on IAF's final ASR!!

IAF is consistently following the mantra " the best is the enemy of the good", This all or nothing attitude nearly killed off tejas mk1, before parrikar sheduled 13 meetings over 8 months to bring IAF-HAL-ADA combo on board with mk1A specs.

Hope manohar parrikar does the same thing on AMCA,

WIth out even a basic working engine, IAF's dream of mach 1.5 super cruising stealth fighters is a tragedy!!

try the mk1, mk2 approach & match the J-20 in at least stealth is the practical way

 

[Superdefender]

AMCA's first flight 2018????????