Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

Dazzler

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So this is preatty much world wide standard in terms of FCS and electronics, but electronics alone do not make a good tank, there is also overall design, mechanical components, armor protection. The last, armor protection is mostly based on Chinese designs, and these are not very... promising.
When it comes to AK armour, Ukrainians have helped us more than Chinese. Since 2001 onwards, contracts worth $ 2 billion were signed which included armour technology, gun and ammunition technology and APC etc. Did you know that Ukrainians developed Nozh ERA to fulfill Pakistani t-80 ud order since K-5 technology was blocked by Russia? The problem here is that in Pakistan, military news is hard to come by through media so we have to dig it through contacts or through third parties. Here is the official link to the news...



(From BBC Monitoring International Reports)
Ukrainian military designer Col Vasyl Khytryk has said the Ukrainian tank protection system Nizh is superior to all foreign analogues, including Russian ones. In an interview with the English-language version of the Ukrainian Defense-Express military journal, Khytryk said the system was developed after Ukraine had secured a big contract for tank deliveries to Pakistan. Describing the system, he said it could be installed on a variety of foreign tanks. Ukraine is looking for potential customers both for the Nizh and a similar system called Zaslin. The following is the text of an interview with Khytryk in English, entitled "Why Nizh is necessary to the tank", and published in the No 1-2 issue of the Defense-Express journal on 31 January; subheadings inserted editorially:
The explosive reactive armour (ERA) system called Nizh [Russian: Nozh, English: Knife] allows protection against every type of antitank ordnance, in the first place armour-piercing sub-calibre shells and striking-nucleus-type impact rounds that attack tanks from the upper hemisphere. Previously, that kind of effect had been beyond the capabilities of any of the off-the-shelf examples of ERA systems. How was the Nizh developed? What makes it so unique? What kind of new tank protection technologies are Ukrainian military designers working on now?
Answers to those and more questions were given in an interview with the Defense-Express military news agency by Col Vasyl Khytryk, chief designer at the Microtech base centre for critical technologies, and once an employee with the armoured equipment research and testing centre in [Russia's] Kubinka.
Nizh developed to pull off Pakistani tank deal
[Khytryk] The project to develop an explosive reactive armour system that is now known as Nizh (Knife) was launched in 1997-98 as part of an effort to supply a consignment of T-80UD tanks under a contract with Pakistan. Russia, in the person of the Moscow-based Scientific Research Institute of Steel had reservations about that contract, saying the tanks being supplied to Pakistan were equipped with an ERA system one of whose elements, the 4C22, was of Russian design. For that system the Russian side demanded a huge sum in royalties that would equal almost 10 per cent of the entire contract value. By that time Ukraine had accumulated enough ideas of its own. So a decision was taken to create an explosive reactive armour system that would be of entirely Ukrainian design. To order from the Defence Ministry of Ukraine and in partnership with the Morozov design bureau in Kharkiv (who in fact came out as customers in that project), a fundamentally new ERA system had been developed within a very short period of time. In 2003, by the defence minister's decree, the ERA system that we designed was commissioned and commercialized by a factory near Kiev.
[Correspondent] How much money did it take to develop that system?
[Khytryk] The Defence Ministry only covered half of the costs. The remainder came from designer companies involved in the project, first and foremost the Morozov design bureau. Interdepartmental trials, too, had to be conducted at the cost of participating companies.
Nizh profiled
[Correspondent] What makes this system so unique?
[Khytryk] The system works on the principle of the directed concentrated effect of individual speciality charges contained by the Nizh module on an antitank projectile that hits tank armour. Once the projectile hits an ERA module, a pin-point blasting of individual charges takes place to destroy the projectile. Employing the principle of directed destructive effect allowed the creation of an explosive reactive armour system that efficiently destroys incoming ordnance, no matter what type of charge it may carry - armour-piercing rounds or hollow-charge shells or striking-nucleus-type impact shells. The ERA system that we've designed is equally efficacious against Soviet-era-vintage projectiles and Western-designed ones. On top of that, the new-generation Nizh ERA modules that are accommodated in specialized Morozov-designed sections mounted on the outside of the tank allow it to keep adjacent ERA modules intact, thereby increasing the entire system's survival by 200 to 300 per cent. In case of earlier versions of ERA systems, subject to destruction were considerable numbers of adjacent modules that were not directly hit by an incoming projectile. There were occasions of about 50 per cent of ERA modules on the given side of the tank being destroyed by an explosion resulting from a projectile hitting just one module on the same side of the tank. That meant to say that, for that side of the tank (tank body or front or turret), the protection system was nonrecoverable.
Russian competitors lagging behind
[Correspondent] Is the Ukrainian-designed ERA system better than Russia's?
[Khytryk] At the present time, Russia employs ERA systems with 4C20 and 4C22 elements that provide reliable protection against non-tandem-type hollow-charge projectiles. But in case of armour-piercing sub-calibre rounds, that system is impotent. Neither does it save from striking-nucleus-type impact rounds. As far as we know, the Scientific Research Institute of Steel is conducting research and development on a general-purpose ERA system to be known as KontaktV. That system would provide reliable protection against armour-piercing sub-calibre shells, like the 105-mm M833 or 120-mm M829, as well as hollow-charge rounds T0W-2 and T0W-2A. The Russian institute offers us cooperation in research and development on a general-purpose second-generation ERA system that would be highly efficacious against armour-piercing sub-calibre shells (120-mm M829A2) and hollow-charge rounds (HOT-3 or SADARM). We have achieved this level already, and manufacture the ERA system Nizh in commercial quantities. We also are working on a project to develop a multi-layer built-in ERA system that would provide protection against prospective types of shells. In that effort we are at least five years ahead of our Russian counterparts.
[Correspondent] Have the Russians showed any interest in acquiring the Nizh?
[Khytryk] No official suggestions or requests have come from Russia. Though, in private conversations some degree of interest has been shown indeed. They apparently consider themselves pioneers in that type of work, and therefore, do not deem it necessary to communicate with others working in this field. As for us, we equip the T-84 tank with an ERA system that provides parameters that they (the Russians) are so far from attaining that they are just offering cooperation in developing an equivalent system to foreign partners.
Foreign analogues
[Correspondent] How efficient is the Ukrainian system compared with foreign-designed equivalents?
[Khytryk] Neither the German Leopard-2, nor the American Abrams M1A2, nor the British Challenger 2 are comparable with the ERA system. The French have an ERA system of their own. It is worse noting that the French Leclerc that is in service in the army of the United Arab Emirates has been adjusted to carry an ERA system, yet the system as such is yet to be installed on the tank. We estimate that by its performance parameters the French-designed ERA system is no better than the Soviet-designed system with the 4C20 element.
[Correspondent] What about the Merkava tank of Israel?
[Khytryk] The Israelis were the first to put an explosive reactive armour system onto a tank and test it in combat operations in the early 1980s. The result surpassed all expectations. Development work on ERA systems were pioneered by the Soviet Union. Yet, die to some subjective reasons, ERA systems had never emerged on Soviet tanks: there were some high-ranking commanders in the Soviet armed forces who warned they would never tolerate a tank in a shell of explosive. For that matter it should be pointed out that the ERA system for tanks in Israel, and subsequently in more countries, was only designed to provide protection against hollow-charge shells, as at the time that kind of ordnance was the most powerful anti-tank weapon. But the situation changed in the mid-1980s with the emergence of box-frame armour-piercing sub-calibre kinetic energy (KE) rounds (like DM-23 or M-111). Those projectiles - which over time have become the principal anti-tank weapon - pierce the tank armour to a depth that is practically equal to their own core. Besides, tandem-type hollow-charge shells have come to be employed to counter ERA protection. This brought about a challenge to provide protection against that type of rounds. And that challenge has been successfully handled in Ukraine.
Commercial prospects
[Correspondent] Is the Nizh fit for mounting onto the Polish tank PT-91 that is bound for export to Malaysia?
[Khytryk] Yes, it is. We had meetings with Polish officials, and conducted a few rounds of negotiations. They have their own ERA system with its own parameters. But the thing is that the Polish do not believe it practicable to create an ERA system that would be potent enough to protect against an armour-piercing sub-calibre projectile. During a trial conducted at a proving ground in Ukraine in April 2002, we "neutralized" a Mango-type Soviet-made 125-mm sub-calibre shell fired from 100 meters, and in May 2003 we demonstrated our system in the United Arab Emirates in a duel with a 120-mm French-made armour-piercing sub-calibre round.
[Correspondent] What is the demand for the Nizh?
[Khytryk] You know, the road is long from advertising to selling. We demonstrated that system to Turkish military commanders at a firing ground here in Ukraine in 2002, during a competition for a contract to supply tanks to Turkey. Though, for the time being, talks on the sale of the system as such and the Ukrainian tank as a whole have been rather difficult. We received inquiries from the UAE about the possibility of installing the ERA system onto the Leclerc tank which they have in their inventory. That tank has already been adjusted to carry an ERA protective system. So no trouble is bound to crop up there. But there is one but: installing an ERA system on the Leclerc previously requires getting the go-ahead from the French. The Leclerc tanks operated by the UAE's army are with an indefinite guarantee of free service. That means that the tank cannot have any of its parts, even a bolt, replaced. There is fear the French will never agree to the Leclerc's being fitted out with our ERA system.
A certain amount of interest is being shown in a project to develop an ERA system for light-weight armoured combat vehicles. The challenge is to provide protection against 20-30-mm gun shells and anti-tank grenades. One of the subtypes of the Nizh system provides efficient protection against 23-mm and 30-mm rounds called MAR as well as PG-7 and PG-9 grenades.
[Correspondent] Does that mean that we are now able to offer our ERA systems for installation onto Soviet-designed armoured infantry fighting vehicles RMP-3?
[Khytryk] Yes, that's true. But first we have to work out a concept of protection for light-weight armoured combat vehicles and test it. For the time being, such a concept in pure form is nonexistent. We are looking for investors, conducting negotiations on creating that variant of protective system. We have some ideas, and are going to solve that problem within the next 12 months.
[Correspondent] Are you going go supply the Nizh to Pakistan?
[Khytryk] Negotiations are in progress with many countries. As far as Pakistan is concerned, they have recently bought new tanks, and, from our perspective, it now does not make economic sense to replace existing ERA systems on the vehicles. An enhanced version of the T-55 tank with the Nizh ERA protective system has recently been demonstrated in Turkey.
Domestic demand
[Correspondent] Is an explosive active armour system for tanks available to Ukraine?
[Khytryk] Not yet. The explosive active armour called Zaslin [Russian: Zaslon, English: Barrier] is now being developed to order from the Ukrinmash firm with funds provided by the Immersion company. That system is designed to protect stationary facilities or entities in motion from anti-tank projectiles with flat or diving trajectories fired using whatever type of sighting systems or guns. That system is without an analogue in the world. Most importantly, in contrast to the existing Russian-designed explosive active armour systems Drozd and Arena, the Zaslin provides protection against artillery shells with velocities of up to 1,200 metres per second. One more very important defining feature of the Zaslin is that is can be interfaced with an explosive reactive armour system. Neither the Drozd nor the Arena is capable of that, as they both are designed for accommodation on the tank turret, leaving no room for an ERA system there. Because those two systems are impotent in providing protection against armour-piercing shells, the vehicle, instead of obtaining better protection as designed, becomes even more vulnerable.
[Correspondent] When will the work on the Zaslin be finished?
[Khytryk] Now we are in serious preparations for testing that system in field conditions. We estimate that the Zaslin would be ready for full-rate production in the not very distant future. Elements comprising the system will be of entirely Ukrainian make.
[Correspondent] Are there any orders for the technology from the Defence Ministry of Ukraine?
[Khytryk] Thus far, there are no orders. But they at the Defence Ministry are thinking seriously about advancing research work in this field. Much interest in the Zaslin system is being shown on the part of the Americans. The military of China want to obtain that technology as well, yet in parts. They are working with a number of Ukrainian companies, meaning to obtain a radar. There have been no contacts with the Chinese thus far concerning the explosive active armour system. China is known to have been engaged with Pakistan in a large-scale project for the manufacture of the Al-Khalid tank there. We might be able to penetrate the Chinese market precisely by way of that project. The more so because that project already involves Ukrainian-made products in big enough amounts (engine-transmission blocs, optics). So issues of common concern and common interest are already there to stay.
Source: Defense-Express web site, Kiev, in English 31 Jan 04

Article: Designer praises Ukrainian tank protection system. | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy
 

Dazzler

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Here is a good read but some systems since then have been upgraded like the main gun which is now indigenous.


tanks

.
 

farhan_9909

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as per pakdef sources
Pakistan has even imported the 6td 4 for the ak2 prototypes

seems like the process is in advance stages now
 

Akim

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A "pakistani contract" was advantageous to 4 countries: to Pakistan, Ukraine. Russia and "¦India!. In first case Pakistan got modern tanks. Ukraine was able finally will complete the circular cycle of production up country (on money from a contract worked out the cannon, machine gun, weld-fabricated turrent, ERA "Nozh", "Varta", "Zaslon", Russia secured a hard order on new tanks from India ( Russian tank industry perished also). Indian military industry got new shove, , to continuation of planning of the national tank.
To argue about what perfect Al-Kh senselessly. Yes, he certainly better, than his forefather Type 96, but however for pakistanis small while experience in creation of modern tanks. To the hindus, it is needed to hurry in creation of Arj2. Symbiosis in the use "soviet" and "western" SCIENTIFIC SCHOOLS, slows a process. India is better to use western approach, that drastically not to redo the tank. But it is necessary yet to take into account that the tactic/pl of the use of tanks of series of "Т" differs from the tactic/pl of the use of Leopard or Abrams. If Pakistan with appearance of new tank, practically does not change the logistic, then Arj2 will strongly change струтру of tank forces of India. Hindus are better to purchase the production of Т-90МS, with a right independently to make alteration. However better, than Т-90МS for the neighbours of India a tank will appear not soon.
 

farhan_9909

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well sir the forefather of al khalid was type90IIM(China first third gen tank.
Type 96 was a 2nd gen tank

beside this i want to see the bustle autoloader of yatagan on AK2
joint venture for a hard kill APS with Ukraine
(engine already imported if to go by pakdef sources)


with the indigenous of AK2 heavy tank.pak will get enough experience in tanks industry
 

Akim

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well sir the forefather of al khalid was type90IIM(China first third gen tank.
Type 96 was a 2nd gen tank

beside this i want to see the bustle autoloader of yatagan on AK2
joint venture for a hard kill APS with Ukraine
(engine already imported if to go by pakdef sources)


with the indigenous of AK2 heavy tank.pak will get enough experience in tanks industry
In a stern AL a feed intended for the shells of NATO of 120-мм, or in those tanks at which small internal volume (T - 55M8A2 Typhoon). Application other AL violates logistic and teaching of crew also. It is better in Al-Kh-- 2,to use ML as on the tanks of Т-80UD, but for this purpose it is necessary a bit to increase the height of corps, that violates a general construction also. AL in the stern o turret it is better to put in Arj. At once mass will diminish and armor will grow.
 

p2prada

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Hindus are better to purchase the production of Т-90МS, with a right independently to make alteration. However better, than Т-90МS for the neighbours of India a tank will appear not soon.
I think the focus will be on getting the 1600+ T-90S inducted along with an upgrade program.

Only 347(I think) T-90S have been manufactured here out of the 1000 and I think the factory is waiting for Army's clearance on ordering 300+ more out of the 1000. They will take 2-3 years to deliver at 150/year. If the third order is also placed quickly then we may possibly see full induction of the 1000 tanks by 2017. I think there was an article last year claiming the Army announced they will be ready for "modern warfare" only in 2017.

Any further orders will be taken much later, especially looking at the current orders. Or they may upgrade the pending 600-700 tanks order to the T-90MS standards. But I don't see that happening because the contract will have to be negotiated from the start. Maybe the pending order will see T-90MS upgrades instead. Something like the Su-30MKI program.
 

Blackwater

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@ farhan 9999999. aren't they old land rover jeeps ??




Although the first example of the Mohafiz is based on a Toyota Land Cruiser chassis, it could also be built on other 4 × 4 chassis. This includes the Land Rover Defender 110 (4 × 4), which is already in service with the Pakistani Army in large numbers.



Is pak army or heavy industry taxilla pay royalty or licence fee to TATA???? after all you are using their product
 

farhan_9909

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Although the first example of the Mohafiz is based on a Toyota Land Cruiser chassis, it could also be built on other 4 × 4 chassis. This includes the Land Rover Defender 110 (4 × 4), which is already in service with the Pakistani Army in large numbers.





Is pak army or heavy industry taxilla pay royalty or licence fee to TATA???? after all you are using their product:p:p
only the chasis
we have even exported it at international level

and seems like heavy industry taxila has also dropped this production as a new apC as Mohafiz was seen during the Sri Lanka army chief visit

i guess the production of Mohafiz will stop and the new apC which is similar to the Mohafiz production will start


and Tata bought a defunct company and the manufacturing facility is still there and so are the engineer meticu country origin
 

Blackwater

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only the chasis
we have even exported it at international level

and seems like heavy industry taxila has also dropped this production as a new apC as Mohafiz was seen during the Sri Lanka army chief visit

i guess the production of Mohafiz will stop and the new apC which is similar to the Mohafiz production will start


and Tata bought a defunct company and the manufacturing facility is still there and so are the engineer meticu country origin
according to wiki not only chasis but also gearbox and engine.still you must pay licence feee for that:

Acording to wiki only iraq uses ur apc

TATA had bought defunct company but now its shedding profit and creating jobs in UK and india too
 

Armand2REP

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I'm sorry guy, I just have to laugh when I hear the words Pakistan and indigenous in the same sentence. Why don't you just admit China is your R&D centre?
 

pankaj nema

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I'm sorry guy, I just have to laugh when I hear the words Pakistan and indigenous in the same sentence. Why don't you just admit China is your R&D centre?
Mate it is RUDE to call a LAME man as LAME and a Blind as a Blind

Paki " INDIGENIOUS " capability is well known

All that they can make is Cotton textiles

Even after 65 years they cannot make DIESEL railway locos
 

Apollyon

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I'm sorry guy, I just have to laugh when I hear the words Pakistan and indigenous in the same sentence. Why don't you just admit China is your R&D centre?
Everything about Al-Khalid is either French, Ukranian or Chinese and is still indigenous to Pakistan :lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

Dazzler

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Above posts show the seriousness of some members and exactly what they want to contribute to the thread. Mods?
 

Virendra

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Stick to the topic guys. You're on a military infra thread.
Be serious and keep the dicussion well oriented.
This is not Chit Chat thread.

Above posts show the seriousness of some members and exactly what they want to contribute to the thread. Mods?
I suggest you refute the suspitions raised on indigenous content, by producing facts and arguments. Hope you won't crib in that.

Regards,
Virendra
 

Dazzler

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It is well known that this is a joint venture between Pakistan, China and after plenty of help of Ukraine, includes them to a great deal. The fact is that we had no experience in development of a complex machinery like an MBT prior to AK (Type-90IIM). Today as it stands, AK is a Pakistani indigenous project with subsystems added from local manufacturers including ammunition, main gun, 12.7 mm machine gun is a POF product, optics, image intensification sight, composite and explosive reactive armour, solid state autoloader, laser threat and warning sensors, along with thermal imagers (2nd, 3rd gen) and fire control system from France as deemed necessary and is a normal practice all over the world. US M1A2 uses Burlington armour which is primarily a British product so this is no big deal.
 

Armand2REP

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It is well known that this is a joint venture between Pakistan, China and after plenty of help of Ukraine, includes them to a great deal. The fact is that we had no experience in development of a complex machinery like an MBT prior to AK (Type-90IIM). Today as it stands, AK is a Pakistani indigenous project with subsystems added from local manufacturers including ammunition, main gun, 12.7 mm machine gun is a POF product, optics, image intensification sight, composite and explosive reactive armour, solid state autoloader, laser threat and warning sensors, along with thermal imagers (2nd, 3rd gen) and fire control system from France as deemed necessary and is a normal practice all over the world. US M1A2 uses Burlington armour which is primarily a British product so this is no big deal.
Is that why Norinco tries selling it without any input from Pakistan or Ukraine? There are those two words again. They do not belong in the same sentence. Al Khalid R&D is nothing Pakistani about it. You can't even make modern subsystems without France!
 

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