ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Astra06

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32 Tejas Mk1 with 8 Trainers. deal done by UPA gov, ada & hal took more than a decade to deliver them
Rest. 73 mk1a, 70 htt 40 still undergoing trials
C 285 deal started by UPA gov. GoI took more than a decade to sign the deal

The deal for 8 GE F-414 engine done by UPA gov
NDA gov cancelled 126 mmrca & brought 36 mmrca & started lca mk1a , ordered 73 of them plus 10 trainers
So when the 1st lot of 32 Tejas were ordered in the UPA era & it arrived in the NDA era.

Then very well expect the 2nd lot of 73 Tejas, 70 HTT-40 & 40 C295s to arrive in the next UPA era & then give gali to UPA people, that it's all done by NDA. What did you guys do.
:bplease:

All Jokes aside. I don't expect any fair deal from the Italian Mafia after the Bofors, Augusta Westland & 2G scams.

The aerospace deals in general take years to materialize. And the only thing in short supply is funds, not the intent. When there is budgetary issues sure there will be delays.

Does diabolical rant automatically fill up our coffers. Or is GoI siphoning the funds to Swiss Banks that I should join the rudali gang about it.
 
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silverghost

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32 Tejas Mk1 with 8 Trainers. deal done by UPA gov, ada & hal took more than a decade to deliver them
Rest. 73 mk1a, 70 htt 40 still undergoing trials
C 285 deal started by UPA gov. GoI took more than a decade to sign the deal

The deal for 8 GE F-414 engine done by UPA gov
NDA gov cancelled 126 mmrca & brought 36 mmrca & started lca mk1a , ordered 73 of them plus 10 trainers
Didn't the IAF reject the Tejas Mk1 deal? It was Manohar Parikkar who had to twist their arms with the promise of upgrades to Mk1 & a revised Mk1A fighter jet to convince them to accept it.
 

johnj

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Didn't the IAF reject the Tejas Mk1 deal? It was Manohar Parikkar who had to twist their arms with the promise of upgrades to Mk1 & a revised Mk1A fighter jet to convince them to accept it.
IAF ordered 40 mk1 & rejected mk1 due to lack of kinetic power which forced ada to develop mk2 with ge f414, Mk1a is hal version using jaguar upgrade tech or jv with Israel to keep alive their fighter jet production line and Manohar Parikkar given a green light. IAF also said yes to Israel tech, with uk ccm.
Except 83 mk1a, all things initialized by UPA, HAL forwarded idea of mk1a due to NDA mmrca cancelation
 

Johny_Baba

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I cannot believe there are still some people on internet who takes PSU side over engine deal just because it's "made in india" (sic) and not "imported"

just this saturday i got into behes = e-lafdaa with somone on discord who was adamant that Klimov RD-33 MK engine is sufficient for our needs and we should mass produce + procure it instead of going after american and western tech 🤷‍♂️

he was made aware by some aviation guy that in past Tejas Tech Demonstrators were being modified to fly on RD-33 of that era but eventually we got GE F404 export variant (not current IN20 one) and by 2004 we had certified that engine for Tejas and continuing using it since then. - since knowing it this guy kept aruging over and over and over in favour of RD-33 MK and no matter how hard I and some others try to convince him that RD-33 MK is quite infamous for being maintenance intensive and having short life cycle and overall performance of that is not upto mark compared to other options and even posting that CAG report of 2016 era that suggested failure rate of engine was whooping ~60 percent...he just kept pushing for "It's Made In India, hence it's good enough, quantity as quality vrooo go soviet way vroo mass produce it!" 🤷‍♂️

There are things that i openly support with made in india but RD-33 MK is definitly not among it.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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IAF ordered 40 mk1 & rejected mk1 due to lack of kinetic power which forced ada to develop mk2 with ge f414, Mk1a is hal version using jaguar upgrade tech or jv with Israel to keep alive their fighter jet production line and Manohar Parikkar given a green light. IAF also said yes to Israel tech, with uk ccm.
Except 83 mk1a, all things initialized by UPA, HAL forwarded idea of mk1a due to NDA mmrca cancelation
Manohar Parikkar worked with both HAL and IAF to address the shortcomings with the original Mk1 FOC version and to have a Tejas Mk1A version as a bridge between the Mk1 and Mk2.
It's not only HAL's creation, IAF was as much committed to it as HAL.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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I cannot believe there are still some people on internet who takes PSU side over engine deal just because it's "made in india" (sic) and not "imported"

just this saturday i got into behes = e-lafdaa with somone on discord who was adamant that Klimov RD-33 MK engine is sufficient for our needs and we should mass produce + procure it instead of going after american and western tech 🤷‍♂️

he was made aware by some aviation guy that in past Tejas Tech Demonstrators were being modified to fly on RD-33 of that era but eventually we got GE F404 export variant (not current IN20 one) and by 2004 we had certified that engine for Tejas and continuing using it since then. - since knowing it this guy kept aruging over and over and over in favour of RD-33 MK and no matter how hard I and some others try to convince him that RD-33 MK is quite infamous for being maintenance intensive and having short life cycle and overall performance of that is not upto mark compared to other options and even posting that CAG report of 2016 era that suggested failure rate of engine was whooping ~60 percent...he just kept pushing for "It's Made In India, hence it's good enough, quantity as quality vrooo go soviet way vroo mass produce it!" 🤷‍♂️

There are things that i openly support with made in india but RD-33 MK is definitly not among it.
HAL was contracted to license produce RD-33 Series 3 engines for the Mig-29 UPG of the IAF, RD-33MK is a different engine and is used in the Mig-29K which were imported off the shelf from Russia.
Also, given that the upgrade was carried out for only 60 odd Mig 29S to UPG standards, I doubt that the order size for RD-33 Series 3 engines is big enough to warrant technology transfer to the level of the technology transfer that came with the AL-31FP engines.
 

abingdonboy

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Some will keep spinning and trying to use the delivery of 414s years ago to refute this but reality always wins.

Every update since CCS ‘clearance’ last year has had the rollout/first flight pushed back, it was mid/late 2024, now it’s 2025.

the only explanation is the linking of the 414 deal to funding is accurate, in which case this is blatant sabotage, no one in charge wants LCA MK.2 to succeed

late 2025 first flight, 7+ years of validation/certification, 3-5 years for production (actually think it might be longer because IAF never places orders on time), this is now a second half of 2030 project

AMCA might be 2050s now with this kind of ‘leadership’
 

Azaad

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If the Mk-2 isn't inducted into the IAF by 2030 which is already a delayed induction the entire exercise , however good the FA is , will turn out to be pointless , given the massive changes in the aerospace arena worldwide but also in our immediate neighborhood.

For perspective , China'd be inducting their 6th Gen FAs in the 2030s while we'd be inducting our 4.5 Gen or 4.5 Gen + or 4.5 Gen ++ or 4.75 Gen Mk-2 . Further ACE class TFs are going to be the mainstay of FAs in the 2030s & going ahead while we're still struggling to build our own indigenous flat rated fixed cycle TFs & have yet to finalize our JV partner for the same.

The more I see this royal mess the more I'm convinced how a technocrat like MP made a world of difference to his role as Raksha Mantri in his short tenure whereas Jaitley , NS & now Rajnath Singh have turned out to be mere place holders with zero value addition to the position they hold .

All this when we're faced with possibly the greatest threat there has been to our existence as a nation since independence from a resurgent China. All these shenanigans will come back to bite us very badly in the backside once the balloon goes up which it will & whoever occupies the hot seat then will become the scapegoat .

It's a crying shame that Modi can't find a single person - a specialist with the kind of credentials Jaishankar possesses to fill in the position of Raksha Mantri.

Absolutely pathetic performance !!
 

abingdonboy

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If the Mk-2 isn't inducted into the IAF by 2030 which is already a delayed induction the entire exercise , however good the FA is , will turn out to be pointless , given the massive changes in the aerospace arena worldwide but also in our immediate neighborhood.

For perspective , China'd be inducting their 6th Gen FAs in the 2030s while we'd be inducting our 4.5 Gen or 4.5 Gen + or 4.5 Gen ++ or 4.75 Gen Mk-2 . Further ACE class TFs are going to be the mainstay of FAs in the 2030s & going ahead while we're still struggling to build our own indigenous flat rated fixed cycle TFs & have yet to finalize our JV partner for the same.

The more I see this royal mess the more I'm convinced how a technocrat like MP made a world of difference to his role as Raksha Mantri in his short tenure whereas Jaitley , NS & now Rajnath Singh have turned out to be mere place holders with zero value addition to the position they hold .

All this when we're faced with possibly the greatest threat there has been to our existence as a nation since independence from a resurgent China. All these shenanigans will come back to bite us very badly in the backside once the balloon goes up which it will & whoever occupies the hot seat then will become the scapegoat .

It's a crying shame that Modi can't find a single person - a specialist with the kind of credentials Jaishankar possesses to fill in the position of Raksha Mantri.

Absolutely pathetic performance !!
0 chance MK.2 is inducted by 2030 or AMCA by 2032 (AMCA MK.2 maybe not even by 2040 now)

IAF/MoD/import played their hand and have kept the focus on MRFA and other foreign toys whilst the fighter fleet depleted. Even now there’s no interest in more MK1As or fast tracking the MK.2, MRFA is the only solution out of CAS’s mouth

Defence minister seems utterly disinterested or oblivious to the games and is letting things work out at a natural pace

it’s very hard to identify which is the best performing service, all 3 have the same import addition couples with procurement paralysis (unless it’s ‘emergency procurement’ times)

IAF haven’t even got plans to get more tankers or decent numbers of AEW by 2030, forget about COMJAM/ISTAR

God knows where all the money is going. In the next 18 months they will have paid off the Rafales and S400
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Some will keep spinning and trying to use the delivery of 414s years ago to refute this but reality always wins.

Every update since CCS ‘clearance’ last year has had the rollout/first flight pushed back, it was mid/late 2024, now it’s 2025.

the only explanation is the linking of the 414 deal to funding is accurate, in which case this is blatant sabotage, no one in charge wants LCA MK.2 to succeed

late 2025 first flight, 7+ years of validation/certification, 3-5 years for production (actually think it might be longer because IAF never places orders on time), this is now a second half of 2030 project

AMCA might be 2050s now with this kind of ‘leadership’
Do you even read what you write?
There is a sea of difference between Roll-out and first flight.
Typically, any new aircraft has its first flight 6-12 months after its prototype has been rolled out.
It won't take to the air immediately after roll-out, that's not how it works.
Work on Tejas Mk2 being held up until the GE F414 deal gets signed is nothing but a pile of garbage cooked up by Janes, only gullibles fall for it.
 

johnj

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Manohar Parikkar worked with both HAL and IAF to address the shortcomings with the original Mk1 FOC version and to have a Tejas Mk1A version as a bridge between the Mk1 and Mk2.
It's not only HAL's creation, IAF was as much committed to it as HAL.
lol, you totally missed Israel, without Israel tech there is no mk1a and Manohar Parikkar was a member of NDA gov. He did his job well, and provided a better solution which satisfied all parties including HAL, IAF, MOD and ADA. FYI - IAF loves Israel Tech.
 

johnj

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Some will keep spinning and trying to use the delivery of 414s years ago to refute this but reality always wins.

Every update since CCS ‘clearance’ last year has had the rollout/first flight pushed back, it was mid/late 2024, now it’s 2025.

the only explanation is the linking of the 414 deal to funding is accurate, in which case this is blatant sabotage, no one in charge wants LCA MK.2 to succeed

late 2025 first flight, 7+ years of validation/certification, 3-5 years for production (actually think it might be longer because IAF never places orders on time), this is now a second half of 2030 project

AMCA might be 2050s now with this kind of ‘leadership’
I don't think funding is the issue, the main reason why mk2 talking too long due to unavailability of all needed tech/parts/items to assemble mk2, Since there no TD, ADA clear mk2 assemble once all necessary tech/parts/items are realized.
First consider rollout before first flight, considering current conditions rollout happen in 2025/2026, first flight after 1 or 2 years.
IAF already cleared 112 mk2s
Why IAF need 5th gen in 2050 when US/Chinese are buzy with 7th gen ??
Yes, its leadership fault mainly - leaders representing MOD and IAF
 

johnj

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By Israel I guess you largely mean the Elta 2052 radar. Without a big enough order size, Elta was unwilling to transfer GaAs TRM tech to HAL.
DRDO themselves were against its integration, it's clearly stated in this document:-
Elta 2052 radar. is just one part of the deal.
HAL also upgrading jaguar with same radar
MK!a also comes with Israel weapons, EW pode, EOTS etc and asraam similar to mk1a
DRDO themselves were against its integration, -- they always against HAL projects, simply look the conditions of LCH. still waiting for quad launcher, and atgm -- Manohar Parikkar never allow such drdo nonsense, he demand drdo to work in mk2 tech and allow HAL to integrate Israel tech, now ada stuck with mk1a due to drdo
If gov cleared all jets with elm 2052, ada can focus more on mk2, and rollout before 2024,
 

Azaad

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0 chance MK.2 is inducted by 2030 or AMCA by 2032 (AMCA MK.2 maybe not even by 2040 now)

IAF/MoD/import played their hand and have kept the focus on MRFA and other foreign toys whilst the fighter fleet depleted. Even now there’s no interest in more MK1As or fast tracking the MK.2, MRFA is the only solution out of CAS’s mouth

Defence minister seems utterly disinterested or oblivious to the games and is letting things work out at a natural pace

it’s very hard to identify which is the best performing service, all 3 have the same import addition couples with procurement paralysis (unless it’s ‘emergency procurement’ times)

IAF haven’t even got plans to get more tankers or decent numbers of AEW by 2030, forget about COMJAM/ISTAR

God knows where all the money is going. In the next 18 months they will have paid off the Rafales and S400
While money is always an issue , I really don't think it has much of a part to play here . Nor am I inclined to believe that Jane's report but in the absence of any credible explanation there seems no other recourse , however fantastic & illogical that report may sound.

The MRFA saga is an old one with its roots in the Mirage 2000 procurement & local mfg after ToT which was jeopardized thanks to Soviet intervention who being alarmed India was moving outside its orbit with the Jaguar deal , the Mirage 2000 deal & IGs visit to Washington requesting US technical support & collaboration in the then nascent LCA project wherein Reagan acquiesced to Indian demands of supply of the GE -404 TF , training of Indian aeronautical engineers & scientists on the FCL apart from other aspects of designing , sweetened the deal offering MiG-29 , the offer to send an Indian cosmonaut to space , lease an SSN & help India with it's N submarine program especially designing of the miniature N PWR to power the submarine .

From there the next opportunity arose after the Kargil war where impressed with the performance of the Mirage 2000 , IAF leaned on the MoD / GoI to revive the previous proposal of mfg it locally with ToT from Dassault. The coffingate scam gave George Fernandes the then Raksha Mantri cold feet & he refused to consider a single tender situation advising the IAF to go in for a tender which is how the MMRCA 1.0 was born . Dassault advised against opting for the Mirage 2000 offering the Rafales instead. The rest of this tragicomic story is known. Hence for one reason or another the MRFA has been postponed / stagnated for the past 4 decades.

The latest spat was between the late CDS Gen Rawat & the IAF where in the CDS was of the opinion that IAF ought to consider the tranche mode of acquisition instead of relying on tendering the entire requirement a la the Su-30 MKI program thus avoiding blocking a huge chunk of defence funds thereby choking up the modernisation / acquisition / CAPEX of all the other armed forces. The IAF being once bitten twice shy refused to consider any such arrangement which speaks volumes about the trust levels between the air arm & the combined defence command structure as well as the MoD .

That should logically explain why the IAF chose not to exercise their options for the 2nd tranche of 36 nos Rafales for which the ISE & bases had been paid for. What can't logically be explained is what was Vayu Bhavan doing from 2016 when the IGA between India & France was signed for the emergency purchase of 36 Rafales & the MMRCA 1.0 was officially scrapped to Dec 2021 when they finally woke up from their slumber going public with why the MRFA was critical to the IAF's modernization plan promising to come out with the RFP ASAP. It's been more than 1.5 yrs now. One's unable to understand the inordinate amount of time required to release the tender which is practically a replica of the MMRCA 1.0 tender document. What exactly is new about the MRFA where except for the F-15 variant & withdrawal of the F/A-18 variant all the other participants are the same ?

Finally to conclude , I think the financial settlement for the purchase of Rafales may have accomplished in 2021-22 itself when we received possession of the full tranche of Rafales. Perhaps the only component pending is towards the ISE which is being undertaken at BRD out here. We haven't yet received the full tranche of the S-400 & by the looks of it is going to be interminably delayed thanks to Russia diverting our purchases to fulfill their requirements in Ukraine . This also includes our T-90s sent to Russia for upgradation / modernization.

The other requirements of the IAF cited aren't going thru or we don't see any kind of news on it in the public domain yet the MTA requirement has resulted in an RFI & we've gone in for replacements for the AVROs with the C-295. All this & whenever we retire a squadron or an FA crashes , the same breast beating in the media by the usual suspects including the IAF commences about falling squadrons & flying obsolete FAs .

Talk about the priorities of the IAF.
 

DumbPilot

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DRDO IRST for LCA mk2......😍😍
I think that's a mockup. No way the real thing looks like this lol. They have had Russian IRST planes to study so I am guessing it will end up looking like that
 
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