ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[MonaLazy]

Won't design change with different engine.

Exactly! Better to make that change now, however painful, rather than 2 years down the line having already invested a considerable amount of work and money into 414. If we can't strike the right deal with US that's a fact we have to live with, plan for and move on.

Is M-88 even sufficient for MK1a let alone MK2.

Calculating Thrust to Weight-

Engine	T/W dry	T/W wet
M88-2	5.66	8.54
F414	5.3	9
M88 ECO demonstrator	6.22	9.33

Even the base M88-2 is 37 cms shorter (more volume for fuel) and 213 kgs lighter vs F414- so packs quite the punch!

https://omnirole-rafale.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Fiche-technique-M-88.pdf

However, F414 itself is a powerful engine and has room to grow beyond 26400 lbs of thrust- a limitation posed by Super Hornet air inlet.

USN study revives GE's hopes for major F414 upgrade

A major engine upgrade for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fleet is being seriously considered by the US Navy for a programme launch in Fiscal 2016, according to the US Navy.

www.flightglobal.com

EJ consortium has Germany in it. How much can we trust these people.

How do you mean? Germany is the favourite on subs for P75I.

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-german-submarine-offer-for-joint-manufacturing-resurrects-project-75india-2993864/

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

As per AI2023, the unvieling was planned in Dec 2024, not 23

My bad. Thought it was 2023.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Exactly! Better to make that change now, however painful, rather than 2 years down the line having already invested a considerable amount of work and money into 414. If we can't strike the right deal with US that's a fact we have to live with, plan for and move on.

Any engine change at this stage of the project is unlikely, you build the aircraft around the engine and not the engine around the aircraft.
The CDR of the Tejas Mk2 has been completed and approved by the IAF, changing the engine right now means Tejas Mk2 will have to go back to the drawing board, highly unlikely.

 

[MonaLazy]

changing the engine right now means Tejas Mk2 will have to go back to the drawing board

Of course that's understood. What I'm saying is if the deal with the Americans falls through, then it's better to go back to the drawing board now (cheaper to do the design again vs design+prototyping+certification) rather than 7 years later when AMCA/TEDBF/Mk2 are about to enter serial production. That would be a real $hit show.

Americans will play real hardball closer to induction knowing there's so much more at stake then. Also if a deal is going to go bad, best to get out of it sooner when we are less committed to it.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

View attachment 204489

Seems fake, funds were cleared for prototype construction back in September 2022 itself.
Also, the GE F414 engines were selected for Tejas Mk2 in 2010 itself, and deliveries of the initial lot began in September 2015.

First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September

www.ajaishukla.com

 

[Delta Squad]

Of course that's understood. What I'm saying is if the deal with the Americans falls through, then it's better to go back to the drawing board now (cheaper to do the design again vs design+prototyping+certification) rather than 7 years later when AMCA/TEDBF/Mk2 are about to enter serial production. That would be a real $hit show.

Americans will play real hardball closer to induction knowing there's so much more at stake then. Also if a deal is going to go bad, best to get out of it sooner when we are less committed to it.

Personal opinion, but I can't digest the fact that it will hamper prototype rollout and all. Production timeline maybe affected, but prototype rollout shouldn't. What happened to those talks, "we have procured some F414 engines before for prototype development"

 

[FactsPlease]

Of course that's understood. What I'm saying is if the deal with the Americans falls through, then it's better to go back to the drawing board now (cheaper to do the design again vs design+prototyping+certification) rather than 7 years later when AMCA/TEDBF/Mk2 are about to enter serial production. That would be a real $hit show.

Americans will play real hardball closer to induction knowing there's so much more at stake then. Also if a deal is going to go bad, best to get out of it sooner when we are less committed to it.

I know there are always one thousand ways to interpret every incident.

To me: this statement is pushing one hanging question close to bottom (perhaps only one thread away, versus full licensed production & know-why), for the planners/decision makers of our MIC development .
That hanging question: how much we could trust USA? (or, how much they deserve our trust?)

if you know what I mean...

 

[MonaLazy]

Production timeline maybe affected, but prototype rollout shouldn't

The Americans are happy to sell, even make in India, without giving us the manufacturing know why. They want to retain their trade secret like any good enterprise. Sure they have delivered some engines for prototyping Mk2, & will happily sell as many 414s as we want but India wants more from the engine deal- which is full manufacturing knowledge- there the Americans are unwilling so far. As per the article some posts above that sticking point is holding up release of funds for Mk2.

No funds means no prototypes even if you have engines stocked. Delay.

Personally feel the previously announced tight timelines for Mk2/AMCA/TEDBF may have given US the impression that we will settle for screwdrivergiri on engine tech. So this current state of affairs may be just a question of who blinks first.

how much we could trust USA?

It's pure business, there is no question of trust. The real question is leverage- how much do we have? India is looking to safeguard its own interests by removing any future dependency on US for F414 manufacturing given their policy vicissitudes. We are trying to not be in a future situation where we have to trust US.

funds were cleared for prototype construction back in September 2022 itself.

Cleared in principle but not released in practice- atleast that's my understanding. There's a temporary pause on the program to exert pressure on the engine supplier country. Could mean that we will change the supplier if we don't get the engine deal we want?

 

[Gyyan]

View attachment 204489

I have seen 2-3 similar articles in past few days

 

[MonaLazy]

Going back to the question of leverage & looking at it from the American PoV perhaps the recent showing of F-35 was no chance occurence. Maybe they want India to place an order for a few squadrons of F-35 before they part with their 20 year old engine tech. All the delays in indigenous programs will push India to take that step. US will be looking to introduce a clause where we cannot export the planes (Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA) without US concurrence.

India may be wanting to gauge how open they are to transferring 98kN tech before engaging them for the 120kN & beyond engine. This is supposedly the strategic partnership of the century! No harm testing its limits from time to time.

ICET — another stillborn Initiative, and GE 414 — a noose?

[Biden’s NSA, Jake Sullivan, & Ajit Doval in Washington, DC] The US government and the Washington policy establishment has been aware for some time now of the brewing Indian dissatisfacti…

bharatkarnad.com

The US government and the Washington policy establishment has been aware for some time now of the brewing Indian dissatisfaction with America promising but not delivering advanced military and other technology.

 

[Tshering22]

Going back to the question of leverage & looking at it from the American PoV perhaps the recent showing of F-35 was no chance occurence. Maybe they want India to place an order for a few squadrons of F-35 before they part with their 20 year old engine tech. All the delays in indigenous programs will push India to take that step. US will be looking to introduce a clause where we cannot export the planes (Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA) without US concurrence.

India may be wanting to gauge how open they are to transferring 98kN tech before engaging them for the 120kN & beyond engine. This is supposedly the strategic partnership of the century! No harm testing its limits from time to time.

ICET — another stillborn Initiative, and GE 414 — a noose?

[Biden’s NSA, Jake Sullivan, & Ajit Doval in Washington, DC] The US government and the Washington policy establishment has been aware for some time now of the brewing Indian dissatisfacti…

bharatkarnad.com

They are not going to part with the IP. Simple. The GOI should simply go with RR and pressure the British. Given their political irrelevance they will be easier to pressure. Or simply use RR as a bargaining chip with Safran.

Europe is the only way we are going to get some good tech.

 

[MonaLazy]

They are not going to part with the IP.

The art of negotiation makes the impossible possible. This is not about the future engine, but the 2 decade old F414. If they open their tech for the old engine they will be favorites for the future program too.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/biden-and-modi-discussed-importance-of-us-india-strategic-technology-partnership-white-house-479961

Give some, take some.

 

[Azaad]

The art of negotiation makes the impossible possible. This is not about the future engine, but the 2 decade old F414. If they open their tech for the old engine they will be favorites for the future program too.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/biden-and-modi-discussed-importance-of-us-india-strategic-technology-partnership-white-house-479961

Give some, take some.

The ToT being referred to is merely production related not the know why & know how of the entire engine. Quite frankly I fail to see the connection with the mfg of the engine locally. After all this is a recent development & the Mk-2 project including the decision to go in for the GE F-414 engine goes all the way back to 2009 .

Assuming the deal for local mfg fails, what's the GoI going to do? Cancel the Mk-2? Development schedules of the Mk-2 have been slipping ever since the grand announcement in Aero India 2021 of a rollout by 2022 & first flight by 2023 beginning with the CDR being completed by Aug/September 2021 itself only for the CCS clearance for funds coming in December 2022. Since then we've seen multiple announcements of the rollout schedule of the Mk-2.

Both the IAF & GoI have some huge disagreements which given the very leaky nature of our dysfunctional system hasn't yet emerged in the public domain.

This is just one of the issues, the other is the MRFA saga, the third being the eternal mystery of why haven't we gone in for the 2nd tranche of the 36 nos Rafales especially after the summer of 2020 , the fourth being the steadfast opposition by the IAF to the entire theatrization process & on & on. Trust you get the drift.

 

[jai jaganath]

I have seen 2-3 similar articles in past few days

They all are based on that bogus janes report

 

[jai jaganath]

Going back to the question of leverage & looking at it from the American PoV perhaps the recent showing of F-35 was no chance occurence. Maybe they want India to place an order for a few squadrons of F-35 before they part with their 20 year old engine tech. All the delays in indigenous programs will push India to take that step. US will be looking to introduce a clause where we cannot export the planes (Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA) without US concurrence.

India may be wanting to gauge how open they are to transferring 98kN tech before engaging them for the 120kN & beyond engine. This is supposedly the strategic partnership of the century! No harm testing its limits from time to time.

ICET — another stillborn Initiative, and GE 414 — a noose?

[Biden’s NSA, Jake Sullivan, & Ajit Doval in Washington, DC] The US government and the Washington policy establishment has been aware for some time now of the brewing Indian dissatisfacti…

bharatkarnad.com

Issue right now is engine tech and amca
Mk2 is done and dusted for nest 5-7 years as funds approved they will go through development and must be look past 2029 when ready to enter service
I am worried of amca bcoz see ccs not clearing funds is serious concern that seems something is very serious
1)engine selection for amca mk2 and general industry based on it
2)spv for manufacturing amca
Until these things not finaled then don't elect ccs to clear and AFAIK that these things will take definitely more than 2 years so expect PD coming every year and postponing the project by an year

 

[jai jaganath]

I know there are always one thousand ways to interpret every incident.

To me: this statement is pushing one hanging question close to bottom (perhaps only one thread away, versus full licensed production & know-why), for the planners/decision makers of our MIC development .
That hanging question: how much we could trust USA? (or, how much they deserve our trust?)

if you know what I mean...

Sane countries like USA will always want to have ur industry in their hands
Yes
If they deny us engines definitely we will suffer and face delays and iaf going through worst phase but still wil can outsource from somewhere else
This is where usa will lose its dominance over our industry thus resulting in their failure to allow raise another rival
They won't deny any sale but definitely won't give iota of tech regarding the engines and I can guarantee
For engine tech look towards Safran or RR
Regarding this mk2 issue by janes its bogus bro mk2 with 414 is final engines for prototype has arrived and in production ones u will get with 414

 

[Blademaster]

This is why we need to go warp speed on the Kaveri program so we can avoid these kinds of pitfalls.

 

[MonaLazy]

need to go warp speed on Kaveri

If we could warp speed it then why are we snail speeding it?

 

[abingdonboy]