ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Kunal Biswas

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From BR :

Kartik : Posted: 11 Feb 2013 15:58 >>

Next, I went to the ADA stall and just asked aloud if anyone could talk to me about the Mk2. A gentleman in a suit stepped up and said "Yes, what do you want to know about it? Which one, the IAF Mk2 or the Navy Mk2?" and I said "IAF Mk2" and he laughed and said "oh, you disappointed me, I was hoping you'd say Navy Mk2"..:D Turned out, it was Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj, Deputy Project Director of the N-LCA program..I was blown away by this gentleman. Here was one of the top decision makers of the Tejas program and he was warm, friendly, forthcoming and genuinely interested in talking about the program without even asking me what my background was (till much later in my conversation). He was an engineer on the Sea Harrier, having served on the Viraat. Said he was rookie when Cmde Maolankar commanded the squadron. The salient points of the conversation with him were:

As an Example :



- One piece of news that will get some happy- he said that he has asked CSIO Chandigarh to develop a frameless HUD instead of the current one. :) It'll feature higher FoV and its easier to view through since there is no frame obstructing the pilot's view.

Rest : Bharat Rakshak • View topic - LCA News and Discussions
 

WMD

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There is not difference between mark 1 and mark 2.
this is from bharat rakshak
Tejas MK2 will get an approx 10mm increase in diameter for the increased air flow requirement of the F-414 (Cmdr Sukesh Nagaraj confirmed this as well). Too small a difference to be visible to the naked eye for us jingos. The spring mounted doors may also be bigger if needed
Bharat Rakshak "¢ View topic - LCA News and Discussions
He confirmed that the intake size will go up by approx. 10 mm for the Mk2.
the link was given by kunal sir.
 

ersakthivel

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What CEILMAC suggested was some improvements, which can be suggested to any other fighter. For example a US agency could have thrown the F-22 back saying you have no Helmet mounted targeting system at close range , and your planes are way too costly to maintain and stealth is usable only for strike roles which can be done better by cruise missiles.

A French agency could have thrown back the RAFALE saying you have a smaller radar than TYPHOON, and lower top speeds than TYPHOON,and not as good as TYPHOON in air to air specs.

A European agency could have thrown the TYPHOON back to it's makers saying it's strike role isn't finished yet , so no use in buying this hugely expensive plane for pure to air to air role, and faulty manufacturing process has limited your top speeds to 80 percent of it's specs due to unexplained vibrations.

If you have sent any SOVIET mig relic that is flying with IAF it would have threw back each and every one saying " ENDANGERING THE LIFE OF PILOTS EVEN IN PEACE TIME".

They haven't done so means there is something more to the plane than the words of any agency.

I have said many times and saying it again, What CEMILAC suggested was inprovements to reach the top supersonic NUMBER of TEJAS at sea leve i.e mach 1.2.

Since tejas has already achieved the same top speed of SUKHOIs and MIG-29 at sea level in Indian tropical conditions in flutter tests in the skies of GOA this suggestion is no longer a gospel of truth.

Flutter test procedure is as follows.

Tejas reached 4 km in altitude and SWITCHED OFF it's engines and took a dive and evaluated the performance of fighter in powerless dive.

And then while reaching sea level it re ignited it's engines and WENT PAST the same top speed of SUKHOIs and MIG-29 at sea level in Indian tropical conditions.

So it is not as if the TEJAS unable to overcome the non existent drag took a POWERED DIVE from 4km to go supersonic at sea level as some clueless posters are insisting.It is these clueless guys who are spreading the falsehood that as commented in CEMILAC report Tejas was unable to achieve it's top speed in sea level at and had to do a POWERED DIVE to achieve this. Truth points to the other direction.

CEMILAC report never faults ADA for decreasing the cross section from 4 to 5 meters in length along the fuselage(which would have violated the WHITCOMB's rule)

Consequently it is wrongly insinuated that this cross section smoothening problem was undoable in MK-1 and postponed to MK-2(another wishful thinking).



The length increase in MK-2 is to store some extra fuel to maintain the range to cater for the extra weight of engine and in Naval Mk-2's case some extra weight of strengthened landing gear.

Smoothening a fuselage cross section without increasing the length of the plane is no science fiction. Some guys even proclaimed there is no empirical evidence for this.

Even without knowing the proper meaning of the term Empirical evidence.Empirical refers to values of some constants that are used in design many mechanical components that have no clear validation using any other equation.

So we use certain constant number factors in fixing some design parameters of mechanical components in some equation that are perfected in practice over the years without any proof of defining formulas.

The guys who were proclaiming there is no empirical evidence should give their empirical evidence for various cross sections of Tejas fuselage at various lengths from the along the fuselage. Sure they are shooting their mouth without even an iota of ACTUAL EVIDENCE pointing to non existent issues.
 
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amanbat11

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From the wind tunnel model of the air intake, it seems that it has LEVCONs. Is Mk2 going to have levcons as standard feature?


And is it possible to make an internal weapons bay on Mk2? LCA already has smaller RCS, with internal weapons configuration it will be ahead of Gripen NG overall.

 

ersakthivel

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From the wind tunnel model of the air intake, it seems that it has LEVCONs. Is Mk2 going to have levcons as standard feature?


And is it possible to make an internal weapons bay on Mk2? LCA already has smaller RCS, with internal weapons configuration it will be ahead of Gripen NG overall.

internal weapon bays can be done only on mk-3(if there is one!) If it has to be done on mk-2 it will involve significant redesign with increasing the height of the fighter and relocation of steering wheels along with widening of the fuselage. But surprisingly IAF has never asked for any internal weapon bay. Nor they have commented on MK-3. Strange are the ways of IAF!!!
 

santosh_g

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can anyone tell, wats the status of tejas Mk-2 ???

thanks in advance.. :)
 

Kunal Biswas

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Its completed designing phase moving forward to prototype phase..
 

Rahul Singh

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Lot has been said in and against LCA's RCS, following enlights how things stand or will in future. Enjoy!

 

Rahul Singh

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That's from old 2011 pdf article but since lot was spoken in and against LCA RCS i decided to post for refreshment!
 

Patriot

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Seems some people are on Russians payroll & their loyalty is worh appreciation :hail:

Whether people say LCAs are good or bad BUT LCA-I & II must happen for the sake of country's future in Military Aviation. Most important thing is that it is ours.:india:
 

Austin

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Slightly Older but Interesting interview with Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (retd)
FORCE Nov 2010

'There Will Be Design Changes in LCA Mk-2 and all Design Changes will Lead to a Weight Penalty'
Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (retd)

In your opinion what are the shortfalls the LCA could be facing currently because of an underpowered engine?

Lack of engine power leads to lack of performance. The main shortcoming would probably be in manoeuvring flight and the ability to take off with the required load from runways in hot and high conditions. There will be increase in time to climb to height and it won't accelerate as fast. So the Indian Air Force (IAF) in its wisdom has said that they are not happy with the performance of the LCA with its current engine. One of the points mentioned is that the sustained turn rate has been lower than specified. One must understand that the performance parameters laid down in the Air Staff Requirement (ASR) have been arrived after a lot of debate in Air Headquarters. I don't understand the argument of reducing the payload to meet performance. The IAF requires a certain level of performance to be delivered for the payload that is being asked for. Engine power is important and having arrived at the conclusion that thrust on the current GE-404 engine is insufficient, it is the GE-F-414 that has been chosen.

Now thrust is proportional to fuel consumption and increased thrust will lead to increased fuel consumption which will have a bearing on mission performance. Having a more powerful engine does not automatically increase performance.

What changes will the choice of a new engine require for the LCA Mk-2?


With regards to the LCA Mk-2 there will be design changes and all design changes will lead to a weight penalty. The outcome of this design exercise that ADA is undertaking on the LCA Mk-2 is yet to be seen. The LCA Mk-2 will have a slighter longer fuselage and may carry more fuel as well. Will the weight go up, will they add more fuel, will the aircraft be able to offer the performance demanded by the IAF with an engine offering more thrust and higher fuel consumption are questions I cannot answer, as these details have not been made public. We could however use this opportunity to lengthen the fuselage, look at the wave drag to improve aerodynamics, put a wider chord on the wings to generate more lift, etc. However, this would then essentially result in a new aircraft but it will be a more capable aircraft and this is a good opportunity to do so. The slightly larger LCA Mk-2 can also include essential operational equipment without which the LCA Mk-2 will not be able to fulfill its operational role. These changes would lead to increase in the All Up Weight (AUW) and result in the LCA Mk-2 being different from Mk-1 by 25 per cent.

By when do you see these changes being completed and the LCA Mk-2 taking to the air with the GE-F414 engine?


I will be extremely happy if the LCA Mk-2 flies by 2015 and all these changes are completed in the next five years. If they are changes in chord of wing and length of fuselage, then the FCS will also need changes. All these would again require flight testing, though not as extensive as that of the LCA Mk-1. This will require a flight test schedule that will take 2 to 2.5 years in my opinion. The LCA Mk-2 would then attain operational capability by 2018 and enter operational service with the IAF by 2020. If we can achieve this, it would be commendable.

Is it also time to review the role of the LCA in IAF, considering it will be operating next to the Su 30 MKI and MMRCA followed by the FGFA?


The LCA will be a frontline fighter capable of protecting itself and carrying out a useful strike role. But its theatre of operations will depend on the threat levels it will face. If we develop the LCA Mk-2 with the necessary Electronic Warfare (EW) and countermeasure dispensing capability, I don't see why it cannot be used in any theatre of war. Given our geographical size and the need to face two fronts, we still need numbers with the IAF talking about 40 squadrons. The LCA will be the 3rd tier after the Su-30 MKI/FGFA and MMRCA. The IAF says that they will take 40 LCA Mk-1 aircraft and those aircraft are important for the simple reason that it will enable both ADA and HAL to obtain spares consumption data as to how many maintenance hours are required per flying hour. This data can be accumulated by using the LCA Mk-1 over this decade to put product support in place. The hope is that by the time the LCA Mk-2 is ready to enter service; all these problems would have been ironed out. The LCA Mk-1 could also be used to create an Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) if required to feed pilots into the system as the IAF will be inducting large numbers of aircraft over the next two decades. The LCA Mk-1 will serve the IAF extremely well for at least the next three decades.

What needs to be done to improve performance and reduce the weight of the LCA?


The way to go about increasing the LCA's performance is by reducing its drag and weight including structural weight but this is a long drawn out exercise. The entire aircraft has to be instrumented so we can measure the loads existing in flight and then compare the data with design loads that have been catered for. A particular part of the structure could have been made too strong and another part too weak. So we have to perform a structural optimisation exercise that usually results in reduction in weight. The aerodynamic optimisation will lead to some configuration changes. Unfortunately our aeronautical institutions from the days of the HT-2 have never undertaken the task of measuring the aerodynamic loads during flight and optimising the structure. We did not do it for the 'Marut' or the 'Kiran'. I have always maintained that performing a structural optimisation exercise is the way to go. I am told that it is a time consuming exercise, but we have to start from somewhere. There is no easy way out. You can also reduce weight by looking at the Line Replaceable Units (LCA), Head-Up Displays (HUD), and Mission Computers etc.

Will the selection of the GE-F414 benefit any of the competitors in the MMRCA contract for the IAF?


The aircraft using the GE 414 engine in the MMRCA competition are the F/A 18 Super Hornet and the Gripen. If they factor in this development it will definitely benefit as the cost of acquisition of these aircraft would come down a little bit. Certainly if the GE 414 is made in India it will bring down the cost of that acquisition, maybe by about 10 per cent.

Do you see the Snecma-Kaveri engine entering service in the LCA?


I definitely do not see the Snecma-Kaveri engine powering either the LCA Mk-1 or Mk-2. However LCA Mk-1 will be used as a flying test bed to put the engine through its paces, before it enters service. However we have to develop the Snecma-Kaveri engine because we cannot call ourselves an aeronautical power in any sense of the word unless we have our own engine. As we speak the Kaveri engine is getting ready to fly in Russia which will give us an enormous amount of confidence. After the 100 hour programme we will have a significant amount of data. With the French coming in the Kaveri will now become a reality and it will get test flown on the LCA airframe at some point of time. My estimate is that this will happen sometime between 2015 and 2018, once we sign on the dotted line. That is the engine that the MCA will be designed around and it will power this aircraft.

What needs to be done to ensure that MCA flies with an Indian engine?

The first thing that needs to be done is to complete the 100 hour Flying Test Bed (FTB) programme on the existing Kaveri engine. That is an essential pre condition. The data generated from the 100 hour FTB programme, will enable us to communicate much better with the French as we would have flown an engine, compared to the static test beds so far. We will also be able to extract more out of the French if this is done. The next is to develop this engine as soon as possible and put this in a flying test bed and keep it ready by the time the MCA gets designed. If we get our sums right then we can fly the MCA with an Indian engine between 2020 and 2022. This will also require a large number of designers and currently there is a serious manpower constraint in the design bureaus of HAL, ADA and elsewhere. You just have to look at the number of projects ongoing currently, HAL is now developing the LCH, LUH another helicopter in the 10 tonne class followed by programmes for the LCA, MCA, FGFA, Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA), Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Hindustan Turboprop Trainer (HTT-40) followed by upgrades for Jaguar, Mig-29, Mirage 2000, etc. All this, requires a large number of designers working concurrently as these programmes are being run side by side.
 

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Reign of Naval aviators
LCA Navy programme will deliver operational LCA Navy Mk-2 fighter only a decade from now
By Atul Chandra FORCE

Bangalore: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) designed Light Combat Aircraft (Navy) is a highly ambitious project to develop the world's smallest and lightest, carrier borne fighter with an unstable delta configuration and digital Fly by Wire (FBW). The LCA Navy must cater for a low approach speed, Ski Jump take off capability, with critical management of Angle of Attack (AoA), and have a structure capable of absorbing high vertical speeds while landing on an aircraft carrier deck. For ADA, with no experience in designing such an aircraft, the task has proved to be monumental and the first flight of the LCA Navy Trainer Prototype (NP-1) has been delayed by over a year. It is expected to take place only in the first half of this year.

The delay cannot be good news for the Indian Navy which, committed as it is to indigenisation, can now realistically expect the LCA Trainer variant to achieve Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) by 2016, with Final Operational Clearance (FOC) expected two years later, by 2018. This would actually be very good going as ADA would have delivered an operational navy trainer with which selected aircrew could begin conversion training aboard an aircraft carrier.

Admiral Nirmal Verma speaking at the roll out of NP-1 stated that "The LCA Navy aircrew should have carried out conversion flying on the LCA Navy Trainer by 2014, as the indigenous aircraft carrier presently under construction in Kochi would also enter service at the same time." As per a report by the Comptroller and Audit General (CAG) last year, as of December 2009, only 35 per cent work on the indigenous carrier had been completed. Compared to NP-1, the LCA Navy Fighter Prototype (NP-2) will feature revised air intakes for better engine performance at low speeds, full navy-specified avionics suite and increased internal fuel. The programme, as it stands today, needs more than a decade of design, development and flight testing before being able to trap on deck as an operational, all weather fleet defence fighter, flying off an aircraft carrier. Former chairman (HAL) Ashok Nayak had requested an early order for Limited Series Production (LSP) production of the LCA Navy Trainer, as a lead time of three years is required, to manufacture the aircraft. These orders would then be dovetailed into HAL's existing orders. As it stands now, the LCA Navy Trainer will have only limited operational relevance.

More importantly, the final operational LCA Navy Mk-2 fighter version fitted with GE F-414 engines will be delivered only by the year 2021-2022 or a decade from today. The first flight of the Navy Mk-2 variant will realistically not take place before 2017-2018. This is because the IAF Mk-2 variant itself was given a four year time schedule and the GE F-414 engine (selection delayed by close to two years) will now come in only by next year (2013). This will be followed by at least two and a half to three years of flight testing to be completed, including Ski Jump and Arrested Recovery trials aboard a carrier. There is also the matter of the small number of aircraft being provided for testing with only two naval prototypes for Mk-2 variant being contracted for. HAL's ability to churn out the prototypes in time is also limited and the existing manpower and industrial resources to run major programmes like this, simultaneously, are limited. Succession planning of people involved with the project also needs to be catered for. P.S. Subramanyam, director ADA, is already on an extension and expected to retire this year.

Rather surprisingly, the LCA Navy was sold to the Indian Navy as a 'Minimum Change' programme, emerging as an offshoot of the Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter version. However, while it is easier to convert an aircraft designed from the start for carrier operations to a land-based one, the other way round is much tougher. This was admitted as much by P.S. Subramanyam in an interview to FORCE, way back in 2010, when he said, "In hindsight, it would have been easier to design the naval variant first and then quickly move onto the air force variant and not the other way around. Our initial estimates on the amount of work required on the Naval variant were not quite accurate and the programme gave us some surprises." The LCA Navy Mk-2 fighter is expected to have only a 60 per cent commonality with its IAF counterpart. Unfortunately, ADA refused to provide an update on the LCA Navy for this article. Interestingly, it was the navy which showed more faith in the LCA by providing an initial funding of about Rs 900 crore for the naval variant in 2003, compared to the IAF, which did not invest any funds till the decision was made to purchase 20 fighters in 2006. The navy began showing serious interest in the programme from 1995 onwards.

The programme currently lacks the required numbers of naval test pilots and naval test engineers to work on the programme. This is essential as the stress of operating a fully-fuelled and armed fighter on a confined aircraft carrier deck is best understood by a naval aviator. According to Air Marshal Phillip Rajkumar (retd), "The Navy requires at least four pilots and four test engineers working on this programme full time, to complete development in a reasonable timeframe." The landing gear for the LCA Navy (NP-1) is also said to be overweight by almost 400kg and the LCA Navy Mk-2 will feature a revised undercarriage. The hefty looking landing gear has a longer oleo stroke and will take up more space while retracted into the fuselage, and uses the same schematics as the IAF version necessitating the use of a stay which has lead to an increase in weight. Without a doubt, the landing gear is overdesigned and it remains to be seen how best it will be resolved on the revised landing gear that will appear on the LCA Mk-2 Fighter and Trainer.

The decision to have two different types of landing gear on the Mk-1 and Mk-2 will mean that the new landing gear on the Mk-2 variant will need to be flight tested again. According to N.C. Agarwal, former director Design and Development (D&D) HAL, "Enough work will be carried out on Mk-1 aircraft and many teething problems will be resolved on it. However, there will be many new and unexplored areas that will require additional testing. This is true for any new programme." The delays also mean that obsolescence management needs to be looked at closely, as obsolescence of items like Line Replaceable Units (LRU), needs to be catered for.the navy trainer NP-1, hardware-in-loop simulation for the Flight Control System (FCS) testing called 'Iron-Bird' will need to be completed. On the 'Iron Bird', the entire hydraulics, FCS and avionics would be integrated for evaluation of the software. Failure states, emergency hydraulics and the Mission Computer (MC) need to be tested which can be done only on the Iron Bird. All failure states from the Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) go to the Mission Computer and the software between DFCC and MC needs to be tested on the Iron Bird before the first flight. This is a time consuming exercise where no shortcut can be allowed as it is critical for flight safety. The Control Law for the FBW will need to be modified and tested extensively on the LCA Navy NP-1, as there is no prior experience in this area, especially when trials are conducted off the aircraft carrier. The LCA Navy is being designed to have a 'Hands Free' take off. When an aircraft is launched 'Off the Deck' and leaves the Ski Jump, it is not able to sustain wing borne flight instantly. This means that the aircraft would sink immediately after clearing the Ski Jump, but needs to keep on accelerating while maintaining the optimum Angle of Attack (Alpha) at this time. This task is expected to be automated to a large extent and is understood to be progressing smoothly. The LCA Navy is also slated to have an auto throttle and autopilot.

Apart from this, there will be a large amount of flight testing required to prove carrier compatibility and demonstrate that the aircraft is capable of operation on an aircraft carrier. Flight testing will also need to cater to the Ski Jump testing at both the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) at Goa and on the actual aircraft carrier. The SBTF along with a landing area is expected to be complete this year. Towards this end, a significant amount of money has been spent in developing the SBTF, at Goa. The most critical tests for the LCA Navy will be those that will have to be performed aboard the aircraft carrier at sea. This would encompass testing to demonstrate the aircraft's wind deck envelope catering for cross winds and wind speeds. Ship motion testing will be challenging as well. Arrested recovery trials will also need to be done.

While the task at hand seems daunting, the LCA Navy carries many of the well accepted features from the IAF 'Tejas' programme. According to AM Rajkumar, "The Tejas will have very good flying qualities and has an autopilot in place, along with limiters in the Flight Control System (FCS). It will, therefore, be a safe and pilot friendly aircraft." Most of the software has already been developed and the aircraft geometry is proven. The LCA Navy is expected to have similar flying characteristics and also features a very good man machine interface. It will have Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and Close Combat Missiles (CCM) along with an AESA radar. One would expect that the LCA Navy will be able to launch the missiles that are currently in the Indian Navy inventory and also feature the Astra BVR missile at a later date. It would also be equipped with Laser designator pod and precision guided munitions. Integration of the required avionics/sensors/weapons required by the navy should not pose a problem as HAL has built up substantial capability in this area with Jaguar DARIN 2/3 upgrade and Mig-27 upgrade. On entering operational service with the Indian Navy LCA Navy, Mk-2 will most likely serve as a point air defence fighter for the carrier battle group.

The Indian Navy is committed to becoming a builders' Navy and it would seem that this extends to aircraft as well! While the service is most committed to indigenisation among the three services, the navy is said to be increasingly unhappy over the delays with LCA Navy programme. The Navy will face a stark choice in case the LCA Navy Mk-2 is unable to meet its operational requirements as promised to be delivered by its designers. The Indian Naval Air Arm has chosen the Mig-29 K as its main ship borne fighter and is most likely to be the only naval air arm to ever operate the type. The LCA Navy is crucial to the Navies' plan to acquire more numbers of smaller, less expensive and capable carrier borne fighter for its new carriers. One hopes that the LCA Navy is not late for its own party.
 

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