Why didn't the Soviet Union invade Pakistan in the 80s with India's help?

pankaj nema

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Goodness gracious what are we talking about.Did Soviets attack Afghanistan for land or resources or its opium fields.
The point is that US pakistan alliance wanted to weaken Moscow's hold over Central Asia.
so in order to prevent that Afghanistan was attacked.

The mighty Russian Army could barely hold on to Afghanistan SO what purpose would have been SERVED by attacking Pakistan .

Instead OIC ,Iran would have turned against SU

Soviets used heavy handed measures and one million people died. There is some thing called GLOBAL opinion.
 

A.V.

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Soviet COIN in Afghanistan Lester Grau Briefing 11May2010

this is an american source may 11 2010 briefing for US troops and possible future withdrawl and see how the US and left their narrow mindset and looked at this positively now all analysis and opinions before this were biased because of the other side of the story was non existent when the US got their fingures burnt they understood the real achievement of the USSR and are looking to follow thier mode of troop withdrawl in the future


also same associated thread on dfi is here

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/military-analysis/10456.htm

read the whole powerpoint presentation
 

pmaitra

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The USSR invasion of afganistan the real idea people misinterpret it was not to capture afganistan the USSR did in iran what he wanted to do in afganistan also but the weak regime needed some support the invasion of afganistan was to support and hold onto a friendly govt, it was in sync with the breznev's policy to assist any socialist movement and what people forget is the invasion with its aims were different and enjoyed success can be gauzed from the fact that the socialist govt there outlived the ussr and only after the breakdown of the CCCP did it collapse in 1995 also the ussr suffering economic losses but militarily their troop functioning and withdrawl technique and the whole operation is deemed a lesson in itself with none other than the US studying the whole processing and praising it


details of this military operation and the US study views of it can be found in military analysis section of the forum read the full soviet military operations detailed in ebook format to get a even better picture of the military success
Well said. The very term "Soviet-Afghan War" is a misnomer and it was coined by western (NATO) nations.

If one asked me, I would say "There was never a Soviet-Afghan War".

The term "Soviet-Afghan War" implies Soviets on one side and Afghans on the other side. That is not quite true. Besides, there was no Soviet invasion, rather an Afghan invitation to the Red Army to defend the government against mujahideen and insurgents who were carrying out attacks against the Afghan Government since long before 1979 when the USSR Army entered Afghanistan.

The real description would be, Afghans on one side and Afghans on the other side fighting against each other and USSR helping one side and USA, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia helping the other side.
 

pmaitra

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...
The Soviets were not defeated and driven out of Afghanistan
...
source:
http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/COIN/re...ghanistan_Lester_Grau_briefing_11May2010.pptx
This is the correct evaluation of the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

I would like to point out that the USSR and Afghan Armies did ensure some significant successes before the withdrawal of the Soviet forces. The Soviets and Afghan Armies managed to capture Khost (Operation Magistral). It was handed over to the Afghan Army who failed to maintain the gained grounds soon after Soviet withdrawal.

Source:
Operation Magistral - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Tshering22

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The whole reason for Soviet downfall was their 10 year obsession with taking Afghan territory. And the decade-long occupation is what drained Soviet economy coupled by Gorbachev's blunder in trying to change the Communist economy into Capitalist in a few years. A better strategy for Soviet Union could have been what USA came up with: Rather than hold onto Afghanistan, they should have stayed in Tajikistan and mounted secret raids across Afghan border through Badakhshan strip and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). Small but prickly raids of heavily armed SPETSNAZ units in both Afghanistan and Pakistan would have done severe damage to both US and Pakistan. What's more, if it had been a secret and small scale invasion attack rather than USSR sending their 13 million soldiers in full force, Af-Pak would have been constantly confused about what to do and who is attacking them.

This along with a bit of planning where Soviet commanders could have discussed with Indian generals on how to coordinate strikes in POK. Not air strikes but special forces strikes by storming mujahideen camps and Kashmiri jihadist camps in the late 80s. If this strategy was considered then by Russians and us, Today Afghanistan would have been Afghan SSR and we would have got back POK with ease and US bewildered on what to do for its blue eyed baby, Pakistan. Our stupid military neutrality and USSR's lack of thinking properly, ruined the show.
 

neo29

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Remember that Zia ul Haq was at that time close to Americans. It was at his beckoning that CIA intensified its operations in Afghan during the Soviet invasion.

A war with Pakistan would mean that Soviet would want India to join in and India would for sure joined for 2 reasons since Pak a natural enemy and Soviet said so. The Americans would have then intervened, the matters would have got very messy, but it would have been limited to covert operations. But for sure Pakistan may have not existed if it happened.
 

A.V.

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The whole reason for Soviet downfall was their 10 year obsession with taking Afghan territory. And the decade-long occupation is what drained Soviet economy coupled by Gorbachev's blunder in trying to change the Communist economy into Capitalist in a few years. A better strategy for Soviet Union could have been what USA came up with: Rather than hold onto Afghanistan, they should have stayed in Tajikistan and mounted secret raids across Afghan border through Badakhshan strip and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). Small but prickly raids of heavily armed SPETSNAZ units in both Afghanistan and Pakistan would have done severe damage to both US and Pakistan. What's more, if it had been a secret and small scale invasion attack rather than USSR sending their 13 million soldiers in full force, Af-Pak would have been constantly confused about what to do and who is attacking them.

This along with a bit of planning where Soviet commanders could have discussed with Indian generals on how to coordinate strikes in POK. Not air strikes but special forces strikes by storming mujahideen camps and Kashmiri jihadist camps in the late 80s. If this strategy was considered then by Russians and us, Today Afghanistan would have been Afghan SSR and we would have got back POK with ease and US bewildered on what to do for its blue eyed baby, Pakistan. Our stupid military neutrality and USSR's lack of thinking properly, ruined the show.
basic flaw in argument soviet union was not interested in afgan territory and any other following argument does not whole ground and the SU had no idea to make afganistan into one of the republics see my previous post the idea was on the lines of what happened in iran and the aim of the SU was never pakistan but was to reach IOR via afgan and iran
 
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This was the perfect opportunity for India to take POK and access Central Asia but I don't know if any leaders thought about things like this at that time??
 

amoy

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I came across an article at that time India (Indira Ghandi) did have some 'strategic synergy' with USSR over Afghanistan. After Afghan, the next should have been Pak.

Yet, Mujahideen and US+PAK+China ruined the plan. It was said US bought weapons from China, which were routed from Xinjiang to Pak (as white glove), then carried to Afghan warriors by donkeys.
 

Neil

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soviets could have never attacked pakistan not in 80's even in their wildest dream....pakisan was part of CEANTO which meant attacking pakistan would draw US in the war....
 

Tshering22

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I came across an article at that time India (Indira Ghandi) did have some 'strategic synergy' with USSR over Afghanistan. After Afghan, the next should have been Pak.

Yet, Mujahideen and US+PAK+China ruined the plan. It was said US bought weapons from China, which were routed from Xinjiang to Pak (as white glove), then carried to Afghan warriors by donkeys.
Well there's no denying that without regional help there was no way US would have managed to create mess for Soviets and that regional help was China. Technically if USSR were to resurrect again, the first country to get blown off its feet would be Pakistan considering that Soviet era war hawks might be holding a grudge against them. Simply put, Pakistan is just playing games on borrowed time. Let's see:

Economically, it owes World Bank and IMF $ 54 billion. This is excluding the dozens of $50-500 million loans that you've been handing out to them. They technically owe $ 10 billion + to the US for saving their economy. Not to mention their ideological masters the Arabs in 100s of millions of dollars.

Militarily, it is even worse. Barring the aid weapons, nothing is coming in on its own.

If we sum all the amount up including matters we don't know, it comes to around more than $100 billion they owe to half the world. Wonder when they would get rid of that kind of debt if they continue on their present path. US is not stupid like Indian government to watch all its money getting wasted. And I am sure that CCP has plan B incase its money is not returned as well.
 

Ray

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China also supplied gratis some weapons to the Mujahideens as per Cooley in Unholy Wars.
 

GokuInd

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soviets could have never attacked pakistan not in 80's even in their wildest dream....pakisan was part of CEANTO which meant attacking pakistan would draw US in the war....
Wrong. SEATO was dissolved in 1977, CENTO in 1979.
 

civfanatic

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soviets could have never attacked pakistan not in 80's even in their wildest dream....pakisan was part of CEANTO which meant attacking pakistan would draw US in the war....
Mate, we attacked Pakistan in 1971 and cut the country in half. I don't know if Pakistan was part of CEANTO or whatever back then, but it was definitely still a US ally, and if the US didn't have the guts to attack a third-world country like India after we gave Pakistan their darkest hour what are the chances that they would attack the Soviet Union?

A lot of people here are saying that WWIII would have started over Pakistan, but I don't buy it. Pakistan wasn't that important for the US. The Yanks had far more important puppets, like Saudi Arabia and pre-Revolution Iran.
 

VersusAllOdds

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Mate, we attacked Pakistan in 1971 and cut the country in half. I don't know if Pakistan was part of CEANTO or whatever back then, but it was definitely still a US ally, and if the US didn't have the guts to attack a third-world country like India after we gave Pakistan their darkest hour what are the chances that they would attack the Soviet Union?
Well, you kinda spoke against your own point there. Why would it concern the US, the Indian invasion of Pakistan? The Cold War included more sabotaging the other side, than improving your own side meaning = Pakistan wasn't held a puppet because the US needed it, but because USSR needed it.

I don't know how do you imagine an invasion of Pakistan by the Soviets. They couldn't hold onto Afghanistan itself. Of course they could I mean, but it cost them so much that it sped up the process of USSR desintegration by at least 5-10 years. I personally don't think Afghanistan was worth the price Soviets paid, I think it's Brezhnev's fault, just like I would blame him the most for the USSR desintegration. He destroyed the ideology (no matter how compromised it already was) for the sake of USSR national interests - no wonder there were never any ideological spies in the 80s.
Back to the topic, I believe that invading any country as large as Pakistan was, is impossible in modern warfare. I don't think you can subdue a 100million country (roughly the pop of Pak back then), just by military. Who would the Soviets/India put their as the puppet government? Noone. Who could they put - noone. The communist movement there was non-existant, and I don't even want to mention what kind of "support" would a pro-Indian govt have in Pak. Also, any invasion of Pakistan would be that much harder by the fact it's much further than Afghanistan (oh and did I mention that supply lines would go through a hostile environment), and the fact that US would be able to ship unlimited resources via sea.
USSR could have a strong influence over Pakistan only in the case of their eventual victory in the Cold War. I percieve it as one of the most resilient could-be-invaded places by the USSR.
 

pmaitra

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Mate, we attacked Pakistan in 1971 and cut the country in half. I don't know if Pakistan was part of CEANTO or whatever back then, but it was definitely still a US ally, and if the US didn't have the guts to attack a third-world country like India after we gave Pakistan their darkest hour what are the chances that they would attack the Soviet Union?

A lot of people here are saying that WWIII would have started over Pakistan, but I don't buy it. Pakistan wasn't that important for the US. The Yanks had far more important puppets, like Saudi Arabia and pre-Revolution Iran.
Well said.

Even when India and Portugal were at war (over Goa), Portugal tried to invoke NATO clauses to preserve it's hold on Goa, but nothing quite happened.

Recently, the Russian Federation gave a solid drubbing to Georgia in general and Mikheil Saakashvili in particular ('the beacon of democracy in the Caucasus and a great ally of the USA in the former Soviet backyard'), and commandeered US owned hummers back into the Russian Federation and the US could not do much about it. I am pretty sure if tomorrow the Russian Army intervenes in Estonia 'to protect ethnic Russians and defeat neo-Nazi groups', and manages to get a complete stranglehold on the country within 24 hours, which I am pretty sure the Russian Army is capable of, the US will still be seeking a negotiated way out of such a quagmire; and NATO and all it's glorious mutual commitments will go for a toss.
 

bengalraider

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Who says the USSR didn't strike back! i bet the KGB had more than a peripheral role in the death of GEn. Zia and the american ambassador(remember the C-130 crash)! Anyhoo coming back on topic the one reason the Soviets could not carpet bomb pakistan into submission(i would personally love to see balckjacks dropping bombs on islamabad one day) was the sheer no of westerners in the nation(albeit in the guise of aid workers)! any assault on pakistan would endenger these lives as well giving the americans a legal pretext to checkmate the USSR, hence the restraint!
 

civfanatic

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Well, you kinda spoke against your own point there. Why would it concern the US, the Indian invasion of Pakistan? The Cold War included more sabotaging the other side, than improving your own side meaning = Pakistan wasn't held a puppet because the US needed it, but because USSR needed it.
India was one of the most important Soviet allies by the 70s. The Indian victory in the 1971 war greatly reduced American influence in South Asia, since they were now down to just West Pakistan.

Clearly, America was concerned by the Indian victory, because Nixon dispatched the 7th Aircraft Carrier Fleet to the Bay of Bengal. However, the Fleet was deterred by Soviet nuclear subs from Vladivostok.

If America thought that using an aircraft carrier strike force against India would be too much of a risk, there is no way in hell they would have attacked the USSR over Pakistan. In a WWIII scenario America would be facing a lot more than a couple nuke subs.

I don't know how do you imagine an invasion of Pakistan by the Soviets. They couldn't hold onto Afghanistan itself. Of course they could I mean, but it cost them so much that it sped up the process of USSR desintegration by at least 5-10 years. I personally don't think Afghanistan was worth the price Soviets paid, I think it's Brezhnev's fault, just like I would blame him the most for the USSR desintegration. He destroyed the ideology (no matter how compromised it already was) for the sake of USSR national interests - no wonder there were never any ideological spies in the 80s.
Back to the topic, I believe that invading any country as large as Pakistan was, is impossible in modern warfare. I don't think you can subdue a 100million country (roughly the pop of Pak back then), just by military. Who would the Soviets/India put their as the puppet government? Noone. Who could they put - noone. The communist movement there was non-existant, and I don't even want to mention what kind of "support" would a pro-Indian govt have in Pak. Also, any invasion of Pakistan would be that much harder by the fact it's much further than Afghanistan (oh and did I mention that supply lines would go through a hostile environment), and the fact that US would be able to ship unlimited resources via sea.
USSR could have a strong influence over Pakistan only in the case of their eventual victory in the Cold War. I percieve it as one of the most resilient could-be-invaded places by the USSR.
You bring up a valid point there. Even in the 80s Pakistan had a population of 90 million, which is no small figure. However, I never said that the Soviet Union/India would take over the whole country. Pakistan can be divided into roughly five regions: Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan, NW Tribal Areas, and Northern Areas.

The most populous of these regions - as well as the most fertile - is Punjab, which accounts for half of the population and one-fourth of the total area. The Punjabis are the dominant ethnic group in the Pakistani sociopolitical system. They make up 90% of the military and control the majority of political positions.

Sindh makes up about one-fifth of the total population and one-fifth of the area. The ethnic Sindhis make up about 60% of the population, and maintain a distinct identity. Since the 70s there have been conflicts between the Sindhis and the Mohajirs (Muslims from India who emigrated to Pakistan after the Partition). The Mohajirs make up 20% of the population and dominate urban economic activity in Sindh. The province is also home to nearly all of Pakistan's Hindus, who together form about 8% of the Sindh's population. Sindh is also home to Pakistan's only major port and largest city, Karachi.

Balochistan is by far the largest province, accounting for over 45% of the total area, but only about 5% of the population. The ethnic Balochis are mostly a nomadic people and are fiercely independent. In the 80s there was a very active independence movement in Balochistan (it is still quite active today), which was allegedly supported by India's intelligence agency, RAW. Regardless, the Pakistani central gov used heavy handed measures against the Balochi people, which gave Gen. Zia the title "Butcher of Balochistan". Balochistan is also notable for providing much of Pakistan's energy (through hydropower and natural gas) and making up most of Pakistan's coastline.

The NW Tribal Areas are similar in ethnic composition and geography to Afghanistan. The warlike Pashtuns are the dominant ethnic group here, and the society is tribal and deeply conservative. The Pakistani central gov has very limited control here.

The Northern Areas consist of Pakistani-occupied Kashmir (POK) and the agency of Gilgit-Baltistan. Both regions are claimed by India as part of Greater Kashmir. The Balti people of Gilgit-Baltistan are tribal and independent; recently there have been reports of a simmering rebellion amogst them against the Pakistani central gov. I don't know much about them in the 80s. As for POK, it is one of the most heavy-handed regions of Pakistan. Very little information comes into the region and very little comes out.

Coming back to topic, I envision the objective of a joint Indo-Soviet invasion to be the further partition of Pakistan and the occupation of strategically important areas, NOT the complete conquest of the country. Military interventions in Sindh and Balochistan can easily take these areas out of Islamabad's grasp. Pro-Soviet and pro-Indian governments can be established in both regions, which will give the USSR their dream of direct access to a warm-water port in the Indian Ocean (Karachi). As for the NW Tribal Areas, the Pashtuns have long desired a united nation for all their people, to be named Pashtunistan. This country can be created using Pakistan's NW Frontier Province as well as the eastern parts of Afghanistan. And finally, the Northern Areas will go to India, which will complete the reunification of Kashmir. The only region to remain part of "Pakistan" will be Punjab, which will be left without access to any ports and deprived of energy, making it extremely dependent on India and Indo-Soviet puppet states.

Thus, the permament castration of the ill-concieved state of Pakistan would be complete.

Also, keep in mind that the geography of Pakistan would lend itself to Soviet tactics much more than Afghanistan. The Red Army was trained to fight on the plains of Eastern Europe, not the deserts and mountains of Afghanistan.
 

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